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Brian. wrote (see)
Morning all, SC, AtD and all you fellow Hadders, regarding the question re how far to hadd and when to switch into more traditional training. My twopennorth is this will ultimately depend on the individuals experience and background. When hitting the longish 80% runs the improvement curve is initially steep. As we do them regularly I think we tend to plateau ie. When the last 3 or 4 runs come out at the same pace. At this point I would suggest moving up (by 5 beats or 3%) OR increasing the number of 80% runs to 2 per week. If marathon training the 1 run of 83% is more appropriate as this then becomes your MP run. This approach should bake a pretty good cake. If this approach has been used before by the runner, and the mara times have plateaud, then I think a period of icing would be the next logical step.
I would say given the above I should look to Hadd possibly all the way, in truth this scares me a little, I know I'm a newbie to the sport of running but training for the races I have participated, the training involved the traditional tempo and interval/hill sprints.
I guess what I'm asking for is some advice on next steps, I think I'm close to a point where I can start introducing the 80%+ runs into my week's training.
I have been looking at the Hadd Document, where Joe was given shedules to increase his mileage for the base of 50mpw up to 80+, two runs where added @160HR for 75 minutes, should I look to intoduce those sessions into mine?
is it ok to do one run a week without using your HRM just taking it slow as i know my pace 's pretty good for my HR ?
Ashman, why not wear your HRM for the run but cover the screen or do not look at it and then review how close you are to your HR range. Some days for the same run at the same pace you will have a differing HR due to tiredness, illness or any other number of other reasons. TBH if you are following HADD then you might as well wear your HR or run very,very slowly so that you know that you are well inside your range.
Over the last couple of days I have gone over the last 30 pages of messages and I see a number of things
Personally I am unsure that once you have achieved a good level of Hadd training then it is correct to stay on the plan as I believe you need to then start putting more goal specific training in to achieve your targets and running at one pace does not allow that. However there will always be a place in any regime for long distance running at an easy pace, whether you call it Hadd or anything else.
I think I have had a bit of breakthrough moment. As some may know I am plagued by calf injuries, which is one of the reasons I turned to Hadd (and started this thread). For the last 2 years I have been alternating 1-2 months of running, feeling myself getting fitter and planning races and targets with another injury which normally takes me 1-2 months to recover from. Frustrating might be one word to sum up my feelings.
I decided to get my orthotics/gait analysis redone and find a new physio who might take a more hollistic approach. Bingo - the first session I had with the new physio identified quite bad tightness in the lower back that leads to glutes not firing/tight hamstrings/consequent calf problems. She proved the point with a simple sitting on a chair exercise which proved my lack of flexibility. I have then got a few friends and work colleagues to try the same test and the only person who has anything like the same lack of flexibility as me is my daughter.
So I am hopefull that a few weeks of work will allow me to move forward. I have an entry for Brass Monkey HM but I may not do it as I do not want to risk injury just now and frankly it will be a hard effort to run 13 miles at the moment. But I have got York FM in October as a reasonable target which is all I need, some positivity and a reason to train
Johnnybike didn't wear my HRM strap today as it cut into my chest yesterday and needs a day to heal with sudocrem.
Anyway did 18 miles @ 9.05 pace very slow controled running..
Enjoy your day Hadders !!
I'm a beginner (38 yrs old, 87kg, 5'11", 2 years of
Forum cutting my messages off..
EDIT: had to replace "less than sign" with the word "under"! Sorry.
I'm a beginner (38 yrs old, 87kg, 5'11", 2 years of under 120 miles in total, and last year did 4 months and a bit - ~400 miles, HM 1:46 PB relatively ok perceived effort Sept; 1st 4:18 FM in Chester in Oct then nothing until last week).
The problem I've got with Hadd training, is that for me it seems to promote a sort of "marathon shuffle". To get my HR at the right level (around 135 I think; I hit 186 on my last training run/jog up a 55 degree hill and not all out) I'm down at 12:30mm after the first 15 min warmup, and I can do a fast walk at this pace - though the fast walk and my HR drops to 120 or less as I always have a foot on the ground. To keep the HR up I need to shorten my stride and turn the legs over more. If I run "comfortably" with my usual stride my HR is up at 155 and nearer 9:20mm (my 8:05mm HM was at an average HR of 174).
I'm worried that if continue this for 3 months I'll have trained this poor form to become my norm. Is it ok to run easily for a bit then walk a bit to "average" the HR out - or is it better to be consistant? I'm also guessing the Hadd document is based on a well established and able runner (like most of you seem to be) rather than someone down at my level.
Am I doing something wrong?
JohnnyBike, that is good news, hopefully those exercises will sort out your calf issues
AtD, good luck with your quest for Commonwealth qualification, how long do you have to meet the qualifying time?
Long run today, 12 miles mainly on the flat with some inclines thrown in, it was near on impossible to keep my HR below 75% on the rises, so I let it drift on the way up and let it recover on the flat
stats for the run
12.11m in 2:21 @ 11:41 avgHR 136(71%)
you dont say what you Max Heart rate is, without that all numbers become meaningless.
A consistent HR is what your aiming for in a training run, if you have to slow down at first, slow down, A few weeks /months you should find that you dont need to back off, and try not to focus on what pace you are running that will sort its self out later on, but keep a record of it for future refrence.
SC - I do like how you post your spreadsheet like that - looks very clear and easy to follow - what is that downloaded from - a Garmin ?
Cheers guys - I guess I need to do the dreaded "find your max HR" which I detest. I injured myself doing it a couple of years ago (hamstring) and found it to be 184, hit 185 in the sprint finish of a half last year, but this year I've hit 186 so far up a steep long hill (not a spike) and would estimate to be a beat or two higher.
I guess I'll have to learn to "speedwalk" then - as as soon as I break in to a jog/run my HR goes way over.
Daeve, if you cannot go above speed walk without HR going over 70% I would suggest not to worry. I would run - but run as slow as you can. Make sure you are not taxing system at any time. ( can chat very esily in full paragraphs etc ) Over a month or so - that will become 70%.
Another tip is to " run for time" rather than mileage - eg 60 mins running.... as slow as possible.
Thanks AGF - I've come around to looking at time rather than miles (though managed 33 miles this week) trying for average 60 mins a day - I've never been able to be conversational while running except in one sentence bursts (must not breathe when talking or something?), even at really low speeds - but can at a fast walk. I'll give it a go for a few weeks and report back.
Good Luck Daeve
Well a pleasing week to start the year. 62 Miles at average spped on 9:10mm. All of it slow except one progressive 7 Miler. So not strictly pure hadd but close enough. 14 More weeks until Brighton Marathon. The plan is to try and average 50ish miles all the way and also lose a bit of weight now the Christmas goodies have disapeared.
Hope everyones training is going well.
Daeve, welcome. I agree with the others. Be patient as it does fell really odd to start with but you will see a change. When I started doing this at the end of Oct my 70% pace was coming out about 9 mins/mile - it is now about 8:30. Prior to taking this approach I had never run anywhere at 9 mins/mile.
Ashman, good miles. I bet you're dying to know what the heart rate was.
SC, nice steady mileage.
JohnnyBike, I'm pleased for you that you've had the breakthrough. Keep doing the stretches to keep the flexibility. Incorporate core stability work as well.
19 miles for me today to round off 50 miles for the week for the first time ever.
Miles 1-11 @ 73-75%
8:53, 8:27, 8:14, 8:12, 8:07, 8:06, 8:04, 7:55, 8:13, 8:01, 8:19,
Miles 12-14 from 76%-80%
8:06, 7:44, 7:48,
Miles 15-19 @ 81%
7:22, 7:24, 7:36, 7:27, 7:38.
Overall pretty pleased with it after one of my 10 milers earlier in the week felt bad.
nice long runs hollers and stewart
Atd - impressive target there and i hope you do it, all the best
Johnny - that sounds like a big breakthrough. Well pleased for you and hopefully you can clear the injury problems and get a clear run of training now.
18M long run was my longest yet this morning and ended up at 18.2 in 2:30, so 8:15 ave @ a smidge under 75%. First 9 at around 8:40, 7 @ somewhere around 8:00 and a couple a bit quicker to finish. Was surprised how good the last few miles felt but sure felt like i'd had a workout and have done plenty of stretching since.
Week 4 of P&D done, 62M
10K on the treadmill, concentrating on footstrike. After reading a lot about it I am pretty certain I am a midfoot/balls of foot striker which is OK and one less thing to worry about.
10K 78% - intentionally going a bit quicker than normal as I need to get a few miles in before BM HM in 3 weeks
Been unable to post for a while due to work and family commitments.
I have been hadding now for 6 weeks and had my first big breakthrough/WOW moment.
I have over the past 7 weeks increased my weekly mileage from 45 to 68 miles.
At the start my 70% pace was between 10.15 to 10.35 m/m and my 75% pace was between 9.45 and 10.00 m/m.
Over the past week I have noticed a increase in pace in these zones. At 75% I am now running at 9-9.15 m/m and 70% I am running between 9.10 -9.30 m/m.
By way of illustration last week I did a 17 mile run in 2hrs 47 at 9.50 m/m with Avg HR of 73%. This week I did the same run in 2hrs 39 at 9.23 m/m with Avg HR of 72%.
Introduced 80% runs two weeks ago, last week did 8 miles at average pace of 8.50m/m. This week aimed to do 9 miles at 80%.However, got HR to 77% and pace felt fast so didn't push on to 80%.Pace was 8.30 m/m. Could have run for further at that HR/Pace. Is it normal after weeks of 70/75% running to find it hard to get to 80% or should I have pushed to reach 80%