HADD training plan

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  • chick, lovely when that happens. Every now and again you get that "could run all day" run. Congrats on another corner turned. Sub9s for 68% is impressive! Those 80% runs are going to get harder on the legs! Do you do any S&C stuff?

    mace, good P&Ding. 5miles at HM pace (tempo) is a tough run! The training is definitely agreeing with you. Make sure you do the recoveries at a very easy pace.

  • Keir - what mileage - bl***y h**l I wish I had the time to do that.

    Ashman - perhaps your brother in law could talk my brother in law in to doing the same - I could do with a laugh.

    Chickadee - don't worry your'e not the only one!! New Years Eve I thought it would be a really good idea to dance to 'Baggy Trousers' - it wasn't! Excellent improvement - this HADD stuff really works.

    Anyone doing the Vyrnwy Half this year? - I fancy entering.

    Sidelined from running at the moment - funny how getting a niggle suddenly makes you twitchy and thinking - boy I just want to be out there running. Then after a couple of days you suddenly realise that the reason (I) started running was for enjoyment - so relax and let the healing take place and hopefully come back stronger and wiser.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Tempted Brian?image

     

  • Kier - The NDW50 is the first half of the course.  Its a long way but I did not find the terrain that challenging.   Apart from Box Hill no real lung busters.   It maybe because I did a lot of running in North Wales and in Shropshire were the terrain is more challenging.

  • Good luck with your challenges AtD - I am sure you will achieve what you want to do.

    Dr Dan, I am going to enter that sometime soon - I think Brian fancies something even flatter (maybe in the Netherlands?). Of course he might be scared of coming 3rd to the pair of us (not that we would win the race of course) but taking down Brian might be better than that image

  • Mace, that exactly what it is, I'm just going to have to learn to relax, and try not to worry to much about it, this alone may help

    Keir, good pacing on your 15 miler, good luck with the 85% LT runs

    Chick, I'm just off to the off license to pick up a bottle of red, I'll do anything to get my pace up for same effort

    BD, get better soon hope your visit to the bench is a short one

    9 miles in total tonight 2 miles too and from JS and a 5 miler with group all easy running

    stats for the 5 miler

    /members/images/696098/Gallery/8Jan.jpg

     140(74%) for the run,

    the two 2 milers were 71% and 73% respectively

  • DrDan, Yes I am very tempted by the York run. The only thing that puts me off is the fact that it will be a first running. Strange things can happen on the first running. Remember Hull last year? I'm sure given all that adverse publicity, the organisers will get things right, but there may well be teething problems. Anyway it will be a back-up race for me, just incase Schipol Airport is snowbound, or the ash cloud has made a reappearance.

    JB, I'd be honoured to be beaten by the fred leaderimage

    You can soften me up on Fridayimage

    That reminds me DrDan and any Leeds based freddites. I am organising a 5mile handicap race on Friday lunchtime on the canal. Message me if your interested.

     

  • Keir wrote (see)
    Run Wales - have you read both of these: HADD1  HADD 2 (cover to cover 5 - 6 times!) 

     

    Sorry for the slow reply Keir... I've been preoccupied with some heavy reading!

    I'd read the first one once... but hadn't seen the second one.  I have now read that one once... and yes, it's really interesting and useful.  I thought I'd read it through once, then take notes when re-reading it.  I now regret that, because it will be a long process!

    Very useful stuff thanks.   I won't have the time to run  a hadd mileage.  I did my only marathon off about 20-30 miles per week (I think I had one week at 35)  -  and I can't see how I can find time for notably more.  So I doubt I'll be allowed to call myself a hadder, but I'll try to adapt and adopt his principles.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Brian ... I think that the Run for All crowd will be experienced enough to put on a decent event in York. I'm sure they'll be a cheesey gym-styl warm up and it will be a bit too "charity focussed" ... but it shoudl be well organised.

    Friday lunchtime sounds interesting!image

    I will have clocked up 42 miles in 5 days by the time I run home tonight ... mostly at 70-75% maxHR but yesterday's 2nd run (5.3M) was more of a sub-LT effort. Good to finally get 2012 started!

     

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Even if the only thing you take away from it is to run your recovery runs, really, really slowly, then that is something RW. 

    3 years ago I couldn't imagine how I could possibly run more than 35miles per week (5m each wkday morning and 10m on a Sunday). Last week I exceeded 70miles. It is amazing how you can start to find time (or wake up even earlier) for a few more miles when you start to look for that extra bit of improvement each marathon campaign. 

  • RW - I was the same - didn't think I HADD the time (sorry folks). I started on 15 miles a week, managed to get up to 28-30 running 4 times a week. It works on lower mileage but try and make each run 60-70mins and of course takes a little longer but the benefits are tremendousimage. Echo Keir's discussion on mileage - I know at some point in the future I reckon 40+ miles will be regular for me - look on the bright side - those miles are only going to get quicker image

    Dr Dan - you may find we are in 2013 (unles you are really Dr Who) image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    BeDe wrote (see)
    Dr Dan - you may find we are in 2013 (unles you are really Dr Who) image

    imageimageimage

  • 15 miles today in 2hrs 12, included 10 miles @80%, which was average pace of 8.25/m. Pacing was quite good with 15 seconds between fastest and slowest miles.

    RW - I too can echo Kier's discussion on mileage. For my last marathon in October, I averaged 50 miles a week. Through Hadding I have increased the mileage and have done 60, 62 and 69 miles in the last three weeks, with more planned in thew future. Patience is the key, the pace will increase, especially when 80% runs are introduced.

    Dr Dan - The York Marathon appeals to me too. If after doing Manchester Marathon in April, I decied to do another marathon this year (not sure whether to just HADD and do HM after marathon), it will either be York or Chester.

  • Oooooh york marathon. Good idea that. Yorks nice as it is so a marathon will be sell out sharpish I bet.



    Whats peoples opinion on marathon training long runs. Because I notice in the hadd Document the longest run seems to be 2:30. I couldn't find any specific advice about how long to make these runs. I'm wondering if hadd got Joe doing 2:30 because it ment 2:25 (target marathon time) was covered.

    Now on page 12 it says that the 150bpm that joe used got him:

    7:22mm pace on 11th may

    7:17mm pace on 6th June

    6:49mm pace on 29th June

    6:36mm pace on 4th August

    So when at first he was doing 7.22mm that would get him 20.36m in 2:30

    7:17mm would be 20.6m in 2:30

    6:49mm would be 22.0m in 2:30

    6:36mm would be 22.7m in 2:30

    I mention all this because I'm just wondering far fellow hadders think is needed in marathon build ups. P & D suggests 24m in there top 18wk schedule.



    Okay going now to have a read of that hadd 2link posted a couple of pages back.
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    I'm not sure how good HADD is for 'mortal' marathon running*. I am HADDING up to 12 weeks out, then switching to more of a P&D 12 week style plan. I don't think beyond 24m is necessary, in fact 22m should be fine as the longest LSRs. That said, I'm planning on a 26.2 and a 33m run this campaign!

    edit: * - I have no evidence for this, just more gut feeling. 

  • Andy: I would second Keir's opinion. Of course I'm way out of your league but I used a 24m run in 2 training campaigns (2009 and 2010) and promptly got sick after them. As if the extra 2 miles take too much of a strain on the immune system. Of course there's no evidence that a 22 miler in that period of training wouldn't have let to illness, but still ... since then I stuck with 22 mile runs (5 or 6 of them) and all was fine.

    Keir wrote (see)
    chickadeee wrote (see)

    Keir: impressive mileage for early Jan! Remind me again when is your next marathon?

    Bit of a revelation run for me this morning. I had a glass of vino too many 

    Have you considered Porridge or perhaps Jam on toast as an alternative breakfast Chickimage

    naaah, I think I prefer a liquid brekkie image

    Brian. wrote (see)

    chick, lovely when that happens. Every now and again you get that "could run all day" run. Congrats on another corner turned. Sub9s for 68% is impressive! Those 80% runs are going to get harder on the legs! Do you do any S&C stuff?

    image not nearly enough ... I try to do core once a week but usually there are weeks and weeks where I forget.  I was also wondering about drills. What's people's opinion? Good or bad? I read somewhere that lots of slow running makes you adopt a less efficient style and drills would help to shorten ground time and improving stride length. On the other hand any short, jumpy, fast stuff is a potential source to pick up injuries (which freaks me out).

  • preston666 wrote (see)

     

    RW - I too can echo Kier's discussion on mileage. For my last marathon in October, I averaged 50 miles a week. Through Hadding I have increased the mileage and have done 60, 62 and 69 miles in the last three weeks, with more planned in thew future. Patience is the key, the pace will increase, especially when 80% runs are introduced.

    I just fear that going up to those mileages / run frequencies, that I would fall foul of my wife, children and boss !

    Judging by your name, and month of last marathon, I think it's likely that we shared the Preston wind & rain last October 28th!

  • Andy - (on training long runs) I found this on the HADD thread of letsrun - it may help. Obviously he is referring to a  specific runner giving specific times but the jist of it is probably transferable. As I'm never going to be there these are just numbers to me - but you may find them useful.

    "I really do not believe you need to go 22 miles (or even 20 miles) to break 2.40. What I would suggest is working on the economy more (learn to burn more fat, less glycogen). Women are great at this, men less so. Instead of 60 am and 60 pm, I would suggest 45-60 am and 90 pm, twice per week but go (even much) slower in the evening. Even 7.30-7.45 m/m is ok.

    Yr 2 hr run is way too fast. Slow it up and again go longer, try weekly Sundays of 2hr, 2:15, 2:30 (and repeat), but all at 7.15-7.30 (or slower).

    Slow down and work the economy more. Try once a week 12 miler at dead steady 6.40 (with no HR climb, HR maybe 15 bpm below M-pace), and another 10-12 mile total (can be 2 x 30-40 mins) at 6.20m/m. Again, this should be with no HR climb and be approx 10 bpm lower than marathon HR.

    Just hit M-pace once per 10-14 days, but go long (12-15 miles) on those days. I don't believe you need to go longer than 15 miles to go sub-2.40."

     

  • RW - Yes we did share the Preston rain and wind. Don't think the weather could have been much worse. What made it more annoying was that the weather the day before and day after was sunny and calm, almost perfect running conditions. It was already a challenging course, and the weather made it even tougher. Even so I enjoyed it as it was novel to run a marathon in my home city. A lot of the route (from mile 8 to 22) was where I had done a lot of my running when I was living at home with the parents. I managed to get round in 3hrs 53, what time do you do?

    Regarding time to do those mileages, I know where your coming from, with 3 kids and commuting to work in Leeds from Preston, I have to get up 4am at weekdays to do the runs, and 5/6am at weekends. For example today I am working from home, so got up at 5.15, out the door at 5.30. Did 15 miles, was back before wife and kids were up and also in time to do school run. 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    image respect!image

  •  

    16.3 miles yesterday...HR a bit high (was a 75% run overall) but felt pretty good most of the way. I have noticed the past two weeks that when I get to about 15 miles my body starts telling me I'm done (yet my HR/pace/energy stays solid). Hard to describe. Think it might be related to the cold weather and accumulated pounding just adding up when I hit a certain threshold.

    Run Wales wrote (see)

    preston666 wrote (see)

     

    RW - I too can echo Kier's discussion on mileage. For my last marathon in October, I averaged 50 miles a week. Through Hadding I have increased the mileage and have done 60, 62 and 69 miles in the last three weeks, with more planned in thew future. Patience is the key, the pace will increase, especially when 80% runs are introduced.

    I just fear that going up to those mileages / run frequencies, that I would fall foul of my wife, children and boss !

    Ah, yes, more of the dark side of runningimage I don't have the boss issue, but definitely the wife keeping tabs. Life is complicated, but as Keir/Preston say there are many ways to creatively fit those extra runs/miles in. In the end you pay in sleep.

  • macemace ✭✭✭
    Keir wrote (see)

    Yeap Mace. Started at 7am at the Grand (Folkestone HM start) then out to Hythe, over the green and out along the canal for a couple of miles before returning and finishing at the bottom of the steps to walk up to the Grand (so missed the final 2 miles of the HM inc big hill image). Misty all day, but it was just starting to clear at 9 when I left Folkestone. Unfortunately it never cleared at all where I live. 

    What is your target Marathon time? 5m @ 7.15m/m PMP this time of year is good.

    Impressive mileage for 2013 so far Andy. image

    Nice run, Keir image

    I don't have a target yet other than to finish and enjoy the 1st Marathon experience. Anything beyond 18M is unknown territory for me at the moment.

    VT - sounds like it's your head telling you you're done rather than your body ?

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    preston - what Dan @ 14:11 said

    I run early as well but mrs M sorts our 3 kids out so when i get back all i have to do is get myself ready for work and drop my youngest at school ( i cycle with him )

    Speaking of early runs, i've come to an agreement with my boss. I had to carry some annual leave over from 2012 and i'm using 1.5 days of it to start an hour late on Wednesdays ( P&D MLR day ) for the next 11 weeks.

    Nice that i don't have to be up at 5am, but the amount of traffic on the roads for the last few miles was a bloody nuisance this morning.

    14M MLR and a couple of close calls with the traffic image

  • mace: nice to haven an understanding boss.

    I am on flexitime but it's hard to use up the overtime that I accumulate without compromising my other assignments. I usually push a something like 40 hours around that I can't seem to get rid of. 

    I like being up before 5am - roads are quiet, few people about and generally wind and rain are not as heavy as later in the day. In winter it also means fresh snow to run on, before the gritters hit the roads and destroy it all image.

    VT: agree what mace said. Marathon is a happening a lot in the head too. Another reason to do plenty of long runs so your brain knows what's coming.

  • Hi all,

    Firstly, what an in-depth thread thanks everyone for their contribution.

    I’m trying to read my way through it all and also have read all of HADD’s PDF of 25 pages.

    I’m a 30 year old chap just back into running after a couple of niggling injuries and really only focussed on doing the 5k parkruns each week and did a 10k run a while ago (56:40).

    I’ve really caught the bug again recently and so have signed up for a couple of 10k runs in the South-West (the Bourton-on-the-Water 10k in Feb13 and the Forest of Dean Trailblazer in May13) and aim to do my first half marathon in Swindon in Oct13.

    As I’m interested in longer distance running now, I’m also interested in coming up with a training plan for myself which will mean that I don’t go too fast too soon – which I believe has caused some of my injuries. Previously I’ve gone out to run and mix up distance/pace depending on the day/time/direction of the wind.

    Please could someone check my understanding which I’ve put below (sorry if I’ve got it wrong)?

    My watch has said my HRMax has peaked at 204 at my 5k PB (24:56), so that would make my slower run HR at ~154bpm and the ILTHR at ~164bpm?

    As I’m currently just doing 5k runs (returning from injury), I would slowly build up to 10 miles at the slower run pace (154bpm). Is this correct?

    Once I achieve the 10 miles at the slower run pace, I start to introduce the quicker ILTHR runs (at 164bpm) and do a maximum of 2 each week?

    Once these two are settled where I can maintain a steady pace to keep the ILTHR constant, I should increase the HR for both runs by 5pbm and continue in a loop?

    As I’m hooked to turning up to the 5k parkruns each week, I’ll turn this into my faster pace runs once they’re added to my plan. I might also turn one every 5 or 6 weeks into a test to see how much I’ve improved.

    Thanks in advance for you help.

  • Hi Preston, It's my home town (ok, city) too...  I ran really well... eating up the last 5 miles but couldn't quite get under 4 hours - missing by less than a minute.

    Respect for the early morning commitment!  I'd have to make a lot of changes before I could do that...  but you never know. 

  • RW - Sure it was frustrating not to break 4hrs, but given the course and conditions that a good time, well run. Whereabouts in Preston do you live. I live in Walton-le-dale and do runs around avenham park and long runs usually take in Longton, Hutton and Penwortham, and did Guild Wheel 5 times in training for Marathon.

  • Lotd of posts in the last few days.

    Some quick points

    Joe (Hadd guide) was a fast runner so a 2:30 training run was around his projected marathon time.

    I have never  thought there was a need to do more than 20-22 miles as pre marathon prep. Maybe do an off-road trail race where you are likely running 25 miles in 4-5 hours (assuming 3-4 hours is your marathon time() but don't consider it mandatory to do more.

    Respect for anyone who can run so early in the morning as Preston.

    8 miles tonight on the dreaded milll - 80% AHR but very comfortable and I am sure I can get around Brass Monkey next week

     

  • Assuming I expect to run a marathon in 4 hours my long slow runs would  then build up to 4 hours. Rather than Joes 2.30.

    BeDe I might run Lake Vyrnwy, but only 3 weeks before Loch Ness!! is that enough rest time,not sure,

  • I think that is too much  personally Roy. One of the problems with Hadd is that he only gave one example, which was Joe and everything is really extrapolated from that. I believe that a long run of ~3 hours is sufficient for a 4 hour marathon.

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