HADD training plan

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  • Just been out for a 30 minute run (no time for longer image  - and tried the ridiculousl slow pace.  Averaged 11:15.    Tried to measure my HR at the end... it was something like 130...  so I would perhaps should have gone a bit quicker.  Probably can't run again until the weekend (unless I do a "preston" !

  • Another day and another 60 min runimage 2 more runs and that will be six weeks of Hadding image, with that in mind I'm going to introduce some 80% work next week, probably  on a Wednesday, 

    Mon, Fri 60 mins@75% 5m 

    Tues, Thurs 90mins@75% (JS nights run too and from) 8m - 9m

    Wed 70min@80% ??

    Sun 120mins+@75% 12m+

    I would imagine this would get me close to 50 miles a week, any feedback on the above would be appreciated image

    tonights run

    /members/images/696098/Gallery/9Jan.jpg

     11:52mm avgHR135(71%)

  • Hi Mace and Chick,

    Yeah, probably in my head. Thinking on it I've been reduced to running the same long course as the snow/ice limits my options. And only getting in 3-4 runs the past few weeks, I have been making most of them long ones. Might be a bit of the doldrums. Will change it up next week. Just curious as I've never had this problem before (I usually have to fight the urge to get an extra mile or two in when I'm at the end of a longer run).

    Also, Keir, after reading a bit of the Let'sRun link, it made me wonder if I've been training too hard on most of my runs. I'm definitely usually in the 72-73% range on most of my slower stuff. For example, most easy runs I do at around 8:20 to 8:40 m/m while my 80% stuff is 7:15 to 7:35ish. Perhaps I need more than a minute space between these efforts? I just feel really comfy/relaxed at the 8:30 range. But haven't seen a ton of improvement at this effort so perhaps I'm squeezing a bit too far up on the tube. Will look over my records to see if this last statement holds up regarding pace at lower HR.

  • Stewart C - I think I moved up to 80% just a little too soon - just check you can do 10 miles at 70% - 75% with no drop in pace at the end. Apologies if I may have missed one of your earlier posts showing that you can.

    If good to go then I would gradually increase the 80% time rather than all out 70 mins. Say 30 mins in the middle of of a normal run and increase by 10 mins each week. Of course you could already be much more aerobically (and strength) fitter than me - it's just our paces are very similar:

    Distance    Split time    Avg. HR    Time
    1.00    10:38    132 (72%)    0:10:38
    2.00    10:53    134 (73%)    0:21:32
    3.00    10:56    134 (73%)    0:32:28
    4.00    10:54    132 (72%)    0:43:23
    5.00    10:54    133 (73%)    0:54:17
    6.00    10:45    134 (73%)    1:05:03
    6.31    3:22    133 (72%)    1:08:26

  • thesasgeek,

    My watch has said my HRMax has peaked at 204 at my 5k PB (24:56), so that would make my slower run HR at ~154bpm and the ILTHR at ~164bpm?

    Are you sure this is your max (and not just a blip)? Have you seen at or around 200 before - seems a little high to me?  

    As I’m currently just doing 5k runs (returning from injury), I would slowly build up to 10 miles at the slower run pace (154bpm). Is this correct?

    70% = 142, 75% = 153. I would alternate between these in 60-70min runs to start with.  

    Once I achieve the 10 miles at the slower run pace, I start to introduce the quicker ILTHR runs (at 164bpm) and do a maximum of 2 each week?

    When you feel happy that you can hold 70-75% over 70-90mins without any significant drift. I would say give yourself at least 4 weeks of the lower intensity stuff first, before you even think about 80%.

    Once these two are settled where I can maintain a steady pace to keep the ILTHR constant, I should increase the HR for both runs by 5pbm and continue in a loop?

    Don't worry about this yet.  

    As I’m hooked to turning up to the 5k parkruns each week, I’ll turn this into my faster pace runs once they’re added to my plan. I might also turn one every 5 or 6 weeks into a test to see how much I’ve improved.

    Running is about enjoyment mainly. So, even though blasting a 5k per week is not good Hadd practice, do what you enjoy, I would say.

    Hope this helps to get you started.

  • thanks all for the various opinions on Long run duration, they were all helpfull. i myself in the past have done long runs up to 26miles and although i`ve always enjoyed them i`m not convinced that i`ve really benefitted from them so in when this years marathon comes up (probably Chester- Oct 6th) i`ll seriously consider doing long runs in time rather than distance and keeping them to maybe 2:30 - 2:45 at the most otherwise it may hinder the following day or two of training. thanks again.

     

    no run today because ankle was a little sore so didn`t fancy makin a possible injury worse still. first rest day of the year so not bad really image

  • BD, thanks for the reply, most of my runs start below 70% and generally rise to 75%, the 12 miles on Sunday was steady for about 8 miles and rose to 76% and was a little higher going up hill. I'll introduce the 80% runs as suguested image

  • Johnny, if I run for 20-22 miles at 70% it will take me approx 3.45 to 4.00 hrs ( based on early last  years 22 mile times ) so bit of a catch 22 situation.

     When I ran the Snowdon mara last year I did not go over 16 miles in any training run for 2 months prior to that race, and felt strong all the way round

    More to think about!

    Stewert, I try and keep my HR at 70% for nearly all my runs, rather than let it drifft upwards, so when I am running the 80% runs I can really feel the drifference,

  • Im under the impression that 21 is the most you should run.  This at your LSR pace is the same time as the full 26 at MP

  • Interesting stuff on the long run. My initial marathon training long runs are what I call "time on your feet runs". I use these to build the long run up to 20 miles. My last 4-6 long runs would be paced. This content I think is more important than the distance. I have only gone to 24 in training and that was unintentional as I got lost.

    My opinion is that 22 is long enough, and I would probably only do 1 of these normally 4 weeks out.

    As I said I think the content (once the time on your feet runs are done) becomes more important, and done correctly should average about 40s to 60s slower than target pace.

    The 2 types of paced long runs I do are:

    1. Progressive

    2. Hard/easys



    The progressive long runs I like to split into 3 stages, typically

    5mile easy

    10mile moderate

    5mile mp or near



    The hard/easys tend to come out at a very similar overall pace and are typically

    5x (2mile easy, 2mile mp) continuous. I normally make this one into 21miles by tagging on a mile cool-down at the end.
  • I took the one mile group tonight almost running at 13mm 74% avgHR! Very frustrating
  • Some great running and reading material going on here. Sorry I've been MIA since New Year, kinda lost my forum mojo for some reason and only posting sporadically. Rest assuered the HADDing has been going on full steam ahead though!!image

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    My first Marathon effort (85%) run today:

    3m w/u 22mins 138bpm (73%) 7.24m/m - quite fast and comfortable warm up.

    4m Mara effort 26min 33sec 161bpm (84%) 6.38m/m - felt hard for the first mile but the 1m split was 6.20m/m so I guess it was more a case of HR lag. Over the rest of run I had to slow a bit to keep HR within range. 

    5m w/d 39min 146bpm (77%) 7.49m/m - felt comfortable and I am surprised to see that my HR was so high over this warm down.

    I'm a bit worried that the final 5m warm down HR is much higher for a slower pace when compared to my w/up. The MP work must have taken quite a bit out of me.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Well I survived Brian.'s 5M lunchtime handicap race on the canal ... just about!image

    Last Saturday I limped out to see if I was well enough to run ... 7 days later I've clocked up 61 miles and finished it with a 6:58/m 5M pain-fest on the tow-path. Pretty happy ... just need a LOT more weeks like this now. Brass Monkey HM will not be optimal but I think I'll get around okay.

    Some numbers ... BM in 2011 ... 90:06, 6:53/m, avHR 157 bpm (max 164)
                                  Today's 5M "race" ... 6:58/m, avHR 157 bpm (max 164)

    HR data suggests that today (88% maxHR) was at HMP effort ... in which case I'm not looking forward to the last 8.1 miles. image

  • Keir, that's a good MP session. Don't worry about the warm-down. That does happen after a good effort - and moreso when you are tired. Maybe your warm-down was a little fast?

    DrDan, happy that 8 runners turned up, and a couple of new faces. Don't worry about the numbers (I'm a right one to talk I know!) but the HR will be up, and the legs will be tired from your heavy training week. I'm in more or less the same boat, but am hoping the taper sorts us out!

    Eindhoven Oct 12..... 80:45, 6:10/m  HRav 168 (max 178)

    5M h/cap race........... 30:58, 6:12/m  HRav 167 (max 175)

    All good quality miles in the bank.

    Remember the surface, although not exactly off-road, is not as fast as tarmac. Anyway enough of the excuses.......image

     

  • ouch, Dr. Dan image.

    Brian. wrote (see)

    The hard/easys tend to come out at a very similar overall pace and are typically
    5x (2mile easy, 2mile mp) continuous. I normally make this one into 21miles by tagging on a mile cool-down at the end.

    I like that hard/easy long run. Will try one of those over the next few weeks. Another variation of the same thing I did in the autumn: 3 x 5 miles @ MP built into a 22 miler. I think I did a 4 mile warm up, then 3 x 5 (with a mile recovery) and a mile cool down at the end. I remember the 3rd chunk @ MP nearly killed me though image

    Not want to jinx things, but lately my running has been going brilliantly. The slow and shit phase is firmly in the past image. 12 miles yesterday with 10 @ 80% - rock solid 7:58 miling, despite being windy. HR took about 4 miles to get to 80% (and that was against the wind, surprisingly!).

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Very very nice Chick! image

    Brian. ... always good to get the excuses in early in my opinion!image

  • Wow chick! I'm pretty sure that is the 1st 7:xx 80% run you've posted? Windy too!! All the ground work paying off for you now. Suck it up.....image

     

     

  • chick, no wonder the 3rd 5M nearly killed you! That's one tough motherfu**er!

    15M at MP is a tough run in anybody's book. The only time I've tackled anything like that is in a 20M Race. Respect!

  • Thanks guys. Yep, Brian is right image  - 8:00 dead was my best pre October marathon but with a bit of HR drift still in it. So, well chuffed with yesterday's sesh. It's hard to describe but I feel I'm so much more in control of my running since I've discovered HADD. I would usually dread the first P&D speed session of the plan but these days I'm pretty confident I can knock it out OK. And the first long run with MP in it should be doable as well.

  • That won't be 3 x 5 miles though, promise image. I think the hardest sesh ever was a Daniels one - 20 miles with 15 continuous MP miles. Ouchy ouch image image.

  • Bloody hell Chick!! I'd have to enter a race to do 15 continous miles at MP. I just don't have that drive on a training run.

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Superbly un-shit running Chick image image

    Brian & Dr Dan, good stuff and nice that some HADDers have had a meet up.

    Brian, are you doing VLM ?

  • That is some session Chick, how long did it take to recover from, and excellent pacing, all your hard work is paying off image



    I'm going to put the last couple of days out of my mind and just crack on with the "shit" phase, I'm not sure weather to rest or not tonight as I had a sports massage
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the advice (yet again) Brian. I think you are right, too fast on the w/u and also the first mile was too fast.

    Great work Chick. Happy days. (BTW - I like the slow and shit comment image)

  • Hi guys,

    I'm in a better frame of mind after my 60 minute run HR climb a few times above 75% but I got it back down, I'm just going to stick to the 70-75% runs next week and see how things progress

    stats for the run

    /members/images/696098/Gallery/11Jan.jpg

     60mins 5:06m @11:50 avgHR 138(78%)

  • Stew -  There is no rush to start on the 80% runs.   DO them wehen your ready!

  • Some interesting discussion going on here. FWIW I'm in the up to 22 miles for the long run camp.

    I've had my own wow moments this week. An evening 9 miler at 75% came in at 7:55 pace which represents approx a minute improvement from when I started hadding 10 weeks ago and then did 11 miles with 9 @ 80% and I was hitting 7:10-7:15 without any obvious drift.

    I'm nervous about doing my next run in case it's a disappointment.
  • Hollers, yeeeeeaaaah! Dont be nervous! And don't be shit.
  • Soz beers
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