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I think what people do tend to forget with this is that you can go back to it whenever you want. Like every year as a base builder.
Have you a link to this?
I do Spen thanks.
Can you post it please?
Sorry Spen I assumed you meant the link to the HADD stuff. I dont have anything other than a book for the parker system [John L Paker - Compleat [US spelling!] idiots guide to heart rate monitor training]. The link for HADD is here and I think it was provided by Keir on page 133 of this thread.
Hi folks, I am not new to the concept of HADD or HR training or slow runs being slow, but am thinking of paying more attention to HADD as a way of improving the base I have in place through existing HR based work.My MHR is 186 (measured), resting HR 54 and I am 54. Run 3-4 times a week with Friday my LSR day, currently up to 14-16 miles on a very hilly trail circuit (I run at Bedgebury Forest mainly), with Av HR usually around 148-154 over the whole run. Sundays run is at 'recovery' pace with my partner who is a beginer but is up to 11k on this same hilly circuit at a very very slow pace, my Av HR sometimes goes over to 125 on this one . The other two runs are the same 11k hilly circuit but at a slightly faster pace depending on mood or tiredness, usually AV HR is mid to high 150'sI am a bit confused about the way HR is calculated in regards HADD, as I see some refferences to % of MHR and others in seemingly the same circumstances as % or WHR, which gives a big variance of value!I use my iphone and ismoothrun/runkeeper to track these along with a BT4 Polar HR monitor. Thats where I start to get confused tho. With my MHR at 186, the phone says 70% is 146 (70% of WHR) but my 70% of MHR is 130! which ties in almost with MHR-50. There is a world of difference between me running at 130 and running at 146, hence the confusion.Zone wise, the program says this, which of course is ((MHR - RHR * %) + RHR)Zone 1 (50-60%) 121-133Zone 1 (60-70%) 134-146Zone 1 (70-80%) 147-160Zone 1 (80-90%) 161-173Zone 1 (90-99%) 174-186At the moment, I try to keep LSR around the zone 2 and 3 border, recovery is usually in zone 1, and the steady 11k's in zone 3, sometimes 4 on the loooong hills (longest is over 1k and does test me ....)Dont get me wrong, since staying on HR based training, my abilities have gone sky high compared to a year ago, and injuries have dropped loads, but I know I can do better.I have read the HADD 25pager (again after link was posted yesterday in a different thread, that rekindled my mind enough to type this!) With a better understanding of how it works, I want more. Those mitochondria, capillaries and aerobic enzymes for once make sense, even if it does sound like I will become Borg after a while ...Training goal wise, I am registered in the Beachy Head Marathon in October, and want to feel able to complete at least 30 miles by that time, (for next year) and am happy at moment that I am half way there already. I have plans to do a 10k in June at Bedgebury, my local hilly circuit just because I run there anyway, and a small number of other events, but my main goal is distance. I also prefer trails to road.I can see that changing my LSR speed down a bit more will be one start, and I am happy with the sunday 'recovery pace' run, and also dont mind dropping both the 11k's down to easy pace, but I dont want more time consuming runs mid week. Once I get the HR value thing sorted, I can plan better. I do have a treadmill at home for more mundane stuff, but am far happier chasing squirrels and watching Deer than running in doors.So to start with, what is the correct way to relate to the HR%, WHR or MHR? and following that, What suggestions would you give me as a way to progress with this method?
Hi cheesey, If you are HADD it is maxHR and I tihnk the best thing to do is start by keeping your HR below 75% and until your pace is steady throughout your run. I follow a 'slightly' different Parker system whihc is 70% of WorkingHR or a percentage of the difference between max and resting rates.
I think hilly runs will cause you a problem as this will mean a lot of slow walking on either system, is there a flat section where you can do reapeats?
If you want HADD advice then youre in the right place ...id go with HADD and MaxHR if I were you!
Im doing the Bedgebury trail run - looking forward to it!
The hilly bits are half the fun tho but I do take your point and know how much it affects me! I do plan to strat running around Bewl (I live near both) which is considerably flatter, I am not keep on road running, in the country at night after work would be no fun and very dangerous around here!
Ok, so MHR it is then. I have not got a lot to drop to 75% MHR which for me is about 139 so if I can at least average near that rate, is that enough? That would probably keep me in my current zone 2 all the time, which seems ok. (Z2 = 134-146) if I ignore the percentages.
I could always change the zone numbers to match the new scale, but probably easier to just look at the numbers and work them out before hand.
Do I have to keep AT the 135 all the time? or is it acceptable to have 135 average, allowing higher on hills and lower down slopes? seems almost impossible to run the long hills and keep the rate that low.
So zone 1 it is then for easy! Mind you, I did notice that ALL of my zones show as 1 in my post earlier oh well.
I'll start and see how it goes
Cheesy - I did a run today without runkeeper and without my HRM and just a good OS map. I like running in the country - I loved xc when I was a kid. Though I made sure I could talk easily ... I walked some bits and stopped to look at the map from time to time. This might help you every now and then 'get out and about' as Im the same as you I hate road running!
I do this type of thing every now and then.
CheesyRider - wecome
I'm same age - you sound a lot fitter than me!!
HADD does say that you can go over the 75% but temporarily - in other words bring it back down as quick as possible. I run with some smallish inclines and at first had to walk them - now the HR rises slightly but not enough to warrant slowing too much. All my base phase training was done taking the average % of MaxHR over the whole run - but as the inclines were small and short it didn't greatly affect the overall figure.
cheessy - make sure you let us know how you are getting on ...there's Brian on here who loves stats and would no doubt like to see yours as you progress!
Im the junior then as Im 44 - wee slip of a lad me!
I'm probably too early asking this. But I'm impatient! I've not started Hadd yet (but I'm after a HR monitor for my birthday!)... but can you please give me an opinion.
This morning, I really thought through the physiology behind hadd.. and was commenting for someone else who was complaining that they'd plateaued... and thought I'd do an experiment tonight... running significanlty slower than normal. And it was HARD !
A bit of background.... Just done a HM at 8:15 pace - on 15 miles per week. So, clearly aerobically challenged! Most of my training for that HM was done at about 9.5min/mile... which I thought was slow enough but...
Tonight.. I had an hour available, I decided to slow it right down.. to 11.5 minutes per mile.... and it was tough on my legs. Granted, it is only 3 days after that HM, but I wasn't stiff, and went for a little jaunt on Monday OK, and rested yesterday.
What do you reckon? Is this the classic inability to maintain a run using only slow twitch muscle fibres? It feels like it to me, and it's come as a surprise. But I guess this would be good news, as there's a clear way of improving fitness.
With another tougher HM coming in 17 days, do you think I should do most of my remaining training at these very slow speeds to build up my slow-twitch fibre efficiency? Or just carry on as planned and don't do anything "haddish" until I can really concentrate on it.?
Im following a 10k training plan - based on one from Runkeeper - where it states slow and easy or indeed 'steady' I am doing all of it as less than my recovery rate under the parker approach for HADD this would be 75% of maxHR.
By Mid June the 10k trailblazers behind me I will either do the same thing for HM training [oxford HM October] then start on pure HADD, for Autumn and winter, or just start HADD and run through the HM at whatever pace HADD gets me to by then.
Thats what Im doing that might not but what you want to do!
It would appear from what youve said you have a lot to gain from HADD
PS you are using pace to determine the speed not any partic HR?? Have you figured out your 75% MaxHR yet?
Cheesy - you said you were using the Polar H4 with runkeeper and ismooth - both apps I have on my iphone, I use runkeeper all the time, I use the FT2 polar HRM currently but it is very basic as it gives me one zone setting, timer, avgHR and maxHR on any run.
Im looking at purchasing the H4, is it any good and do I get more info and breakdown etc ,,its about £50 so would like to be sure. Whats youre feedback?
What is everyone else using and how good are they ...feel a need for more stats coming along!
Thanks Lee, I haven't had a heart monitor on yet. Birthday is 8 weeks away, and I think that will be my treat. I stopped briefly to feel my pulse twice last night and I'm confident that it was nicely under control... I'd be surprised if it was above 75% but I know that's not exactly a reliable test I did there!
Run Wales - I might be selling mine yet within 8 weeks!
Hi Lee sorry, was my bad, I didnt type the HR monitor name properly, its a Polar H7 bluetooth4 monitor, hence BT4, it pairs with the iphone. I paid £50 for it, and although it is meant to pair with the iphone, being polar, it will also connect to most polar devices, and also most gym equipment! which the wahoo one doesnt.
One thing I do notice is that the first 1km or so it can be erratic if I forget to wet the contact strap first, they really dont like dry contact on skin, but theyn again they are not meant to be used that way. once its settled, it works great!
Being able to acurately track HR against pace and terrain is pretty cool if you like stuff like that, which I do
It was so good, I bought my partner one as a present the first time she ran 1 hour continuously
Previously I had an FT4 polar, and another one which I forget the name for, they were good for monitoring, but thats it, you had to keep an eye on them all the time and it was hard to 'see' trends. I wouldnt go away from something that could chart HR, pace and terrain after using this, and when the iphone doesnt last long enough for a whole run, I will look at probably one of the garmins. bit too expensive at the moment for me tho, so will stick to the phone.
Also Lee, I let ismoothrun update the runkeeper site, I dont have both apps running. I find the ismooth better for setting up workouts etc, and I prefer the voicefeedback on it. It also got around a couple of runkeeper bugs where it would give wrong times/distances if you couldnt upload straight away. (cant remember exactly, some time ago) The ghost runner is brilliant, set every minute to tell you how far ahead/behind you are on route, based on the pace set for that workout.
cheesy - just the same for me viz runkeeper and iSmooth stuff. Love the ghost runner, thoguh hated it last November on a one and only track session everytime it said faster I could have thrown it !!
Yep, Bedgebury forest often echoes to me swearing at that woman, I'm going as fast as I can ffs!
Run Wales - "With another tougher HM coming in 17 days, do you think I should do most of my remaining training at these very slow speeds to build up my slow-twitch fibre efficiency?"
17 days will make no difference - especially if you have just run a HM. HADD is a longer term programme - think in terms of weeks not days
I've been reading this thread with interest and reading about the HADD method, and all makes quite good sense- I wasn't really satisifed with the reason, you just have to run slower to run faster... so thanks for clearing it all up for me!
I'm doing Edinburgh marathon in May, and would love under 4 hours. It's probably too late to use this method properly, but would be grateful for some guidance.
I'm planning on doing my LSR at about 10:30 pacing (which I was reluctant to do before because didn't understand the physiological benefits). I was planning on doing one longish run at Marathon pace, and then the other runs just however I felt on the day. ( So not very structured I guess).
Do I need to use a HR monitor, or is the fact I can chat easily at 10:30 pace a good indicator that this will be working my slow muscle fibres?
I'd be very grateful for some advice. I really want to try and optimise my training this time round!
Sadly as has been stated previously this type of training is no quick fix and is a program that is a much longer commitment than just trying to help with something only a couple of months away.
Adaptation is slow so the benefits take time to feed through.
However it certainly cant do you any harm to do slower running but you would need a HRM as I can talk comfortably at around 148 and my pulse should be below 138.
You can pick one up that will do the job for about £30 ...maybe wait until after Edinburgh and then start?
Im not currently doing HADD as like you I have some races in may and june but will probably start then.