HADD training plan

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  • Welcome to you all.fredites/ threadites/ or just ludites.

        18.4 miles this morning, in a time of 2.44 mins at 72% ave.

    Swirling wind but dry.

  • 11k at 71% ave but was running with my partner at her pace so could keep slow. I really cant see how I will keep that slow on my own, but hey, will be giving it a go during the week runs.

  • im still putting the miles in.    First ultra of the year on Saturday   just hope i can recover to keep the momentum goign

  • Im slightly 'stalled' as both my achilles are playing up, saw Physio yesterday for treament and Ive been advised to get orthotics and where heeled slippers indoors - look like a freak!

    Unbeknown to me I over pronate [what!!] as I have had an assessment by a - different - physio who said my gait was neutral. image

    So no mileage for me for at least a few days and certainly until my orthotics turn up and I get them assessed at my next treatment with the physio Friday.

    Last run Sunday 7 miles; 3 miles at less than 138 [Hadd 75%!] averaged 10m 25s, 3 miles at less than 150 9m 30s and final recovery mile home getting back under 138 for the last half mile - 11m 40s.

    Might have to go swim or cycle to burn off excess energy.

     

  • Brian. wrote (see)

     

    Morning all, mace, I will guesstimate on your 70% run above, but I would be happier estimating on 80% (or even better 83%) for the 10miles in the middle. My workings: Your max looks like 180. You've done 8:45s for 128 (71%). I am going to  reckon on you being able to average 86% in the marathon, which is 155bpm. This gives you another 27 beats on top of the 128. The conversion from bpm to secs/mile is between 3 and 4. My conversion factor is 3 so for your puposes I'll use 3. 27x3 = 81s. Marathon pace is 8:45 - 81 = 7:24 pace. This equates to 3:14. Remember this is a huge guess at the moment. I know you are doing a P&D plan at the moment. Does it include MP runs? What distances?  

    Brian, been trying to message you today and yesterday but i can't send for some reason and i'm getting pee'd off typing the same message and then it failing image so i'll try on here.

    I did the Lydd Half as the end part of a P&D 18M with 14M @ PMP on Sunday and pb'd the Half by 11mins .... i paced myself based on your comments above and it worked a treat image Started to work a bit harder miles 16-18 but most of that was into the wind and i managed to maintain 7:20's. I could definitely have done a couple more miles.

    That's the good, but the slightly worrying part is that my HR reached 168 last 2 miles ( though it didn't feel THAT hard ) .... maybe my max is a fair bit higher than the 181 i think it is !!?? I did notice this morning when i reviewed my garmin stats for last weeks V02 session that i briefly hit 190's on the last 3 reps and peaked at 201 !!!!  would that be normal for 6 x 800's or are they spikes ?

    Anyway, THANKS for putting the idea in my head because i don't think i'd have tried it otherwise.

  • Oh, HRav for the 13.1 was 158 !!

  • Mace, that's a corking run and amazing pb! Credit to your training. I think at the end of the 18miler, and Into the wind, the hr is bound to increase. 168 doesn't sound too high to me. As far as the HRmax is concerned, I would keep an eye on it on your next vo2 sesh and recalibrate if necessary. Add 2 beats on to the highest reading you encounter. 158 is low for an average over hm distance! I think you may have more scope than you first thought!
  • OK Brian, cheers !!
  • Mace, Wow! You killed it. I'm really impressed. And to realize you've got another 20 bpm to work with is priceless.

  • Thats great mace you are going to have some good times



    I know this has been explained before but whst is marathon max
  • well done Mace - man of the moment   ...how fast can you go!?

  • Spen, marathon max could be anything. Marathon avg is generally between 86-88%.



    After some deliberation I'm going to do a Parkrunfan inspired progressive 10miler today.
  • Sorry come across wrong.    DO you start at 83% and let it rise?

  • Good luck with the 10M Brian. Anything inspired by PRF is usually worthwhile.image

    Things are still ticking along over here with nearly all running at recovery pace, although work and family life are often getting in the way of getting in the consistency I know I need. And also getting in the way of popping onto this thread! Nevertheless, I'm healthy and reasonably fit, so not complaining too much. I should be able to start getting in the sub-LT sessions in April.

  • Hi Dr Dan - how long have you been on HADD and what has your weekly mileage etc looked like and how has it built etc.  Cheers.

  • Thanks for comments on my earlier post.  Now I've got a basic question. Please.

    I think I'm grasping most of the main physiological factors associated with hadd. But I see comments like "I'm not doing hadd  right now, because I've got some races.  So...  why on earth can you not mix the two?

    If I have it right, the number one principle of hadding, is to adapt the efficiency of the slow twitch muscle fibres... by running some good distance miles, slow enough NOT to engage the fast twitch fibres.  So why can't you do 3 or 4 hadd-type runs a week... plus a couple of good interval/threshold stuff, to get you fit for racing?  Is there a suggestion that doing the speedwork is detrimental to the development of the slow-twitch muscle fibre systems?

    Any help clearing that up would be great.

  • spen, that's how I (used to) run the marathon. Start at 83% and let it rise gradually and evenly till 86% at h/w, and 90% at 20M. This got me sub-3 hours.

    My lunchtime run - Have been thinking about this session for a few weeks and finally plucked up the courage to do it.

    10M progressive, finishing at 10k pace. So each mile faster than the last (by ~15s/mile) ending at 5:50pace.
    The last mile was (not surprisingly) too hot for me:

    11.92  miles in 87:12 (7:19 pace) incl the middle 10 with each mile in:

    Target   Actual
    8:10      8:05/123
    7:55      7:54/129
    7:40      7:39/135
    7:25      7:26/143  (2 lock ups)
    7:10      7:10/145
    6:50      6:50/151
    6:35      6:34/154  (2 lock downs)
    6:20      6:23/161
    6:05      6:13/167
    5:50      6:01/170

    The effort level was fine, but the legs just wouldn't go quick enough for the last 2 miles.
    But happy enough, taking into account I haven't done any speed work for ages.

     

  • RunWales, I think there are 2 major reasons why runners turn to Hadd:

    1. Injury. The mixture of traditional training sessions can be very taxing, particularly on inexperienced runners. Hadd focusses initially on lower intensity running and therefore there is less likelihood of injury.

    2. Base. You touched on the mitochondrial growth. The low intensity miles engage the slow-twitch muscles with the minimum amount of stress on the body. As the intensity increases, then the slow-twitch become unemployed and the fast twitch take over. To gain the maximum slow-twitch development, the slow-twitch need to be engaged, tired fully, until then and only then the fast twitch are engaged.

    DrDan, Good to hear that you are still alive and kicking. I thought my 5M h/cap had finished you offimage

  • Hey all - good stuff going on here.

    Mace - great, great stats - fantastic to see what can be achieved - inspiring.

    Brian - some pretty impressive runninng there, more impressive is how close the actuals are to your targets image

    Me - I'm pootling around at 75% since HM - only race I have planned is a 10K late August. Think I'm going to miss out on a 2nd HM this year and concentrate more on HADD so that by end of the year I'm doing long 80% runs regularly as part of normal training. Want to do a new Max HR test (going to leave that for a couple of weeks yet) - wait until I'm back into a steady mileage pattern (not too high).

    Dr.Dan - welcome back into the foldimage

  • Some stats for you tonight  8 miles tonight with 6 miles as follows

    Max is 190   so 75%  is  142

     

    2          8:42      135

    3          8.41       138

    4          8.52       139

    5          8.54       138

    6          9.01       141

     

    So a bit of drift at this new pace.   Was running at 9.15 for a bit.   I do it slightly different and stick to the pace and not the HR.   Cannot see much difference.   These stats show me that I have to stick at 8:45 for 6 or 8 weeks now to get the full benefit and stop the drift.   In 14 week since I have started training properly again I have knocked off 90 secs per mile.   I did not start from scratch but just shows what the regular miles can do.

     

    Oh ran 8 miles at 8 min miles last night so legs were a bit heavy.  This pace is about 84%

  • Leecampbelluk wrote (see)

    Hi Dr Dan - how long have you been on HADD and what has your weekly mileage etc looked like and how has it built etc.  Cheers.

     

    I've been Hadding for a few years ... most consistent period was a 12 month period in 2010-2011 when I set PBs at all distances. 2012 was a bad year ... injury caused by not resting up after a marathon at end of 2011. Best periods have come off 200+ miles per month but struggling to sustain that at the moment, though hope to be more sucessful when work calms done and the weather improves.

    Brian. wrote (see)

     

    DrDan, Good to hear that you are still alive and kicking. I thought my 5M h/cap had finished you offimage


    It did!image ... actually, that's the only proper bit of sub-7 running I've done this year. The Bradford 10K in 10 days or so will be a shock to the system!

    That was  a great 10M progressiveimage ... I love those sort of sessions - really satisfying when you nail them!

  • 42 hilly miles yesterday in 9 hrs 19 mins.   Felt strong and ran all the way to the finish,  This works.

  • whats that in terms of pace   ...however very very impressive whatever the pace!

  • 13.20 average,    2800 metres of climbing in that

  • Hi not posted on here in ages as not hadding as such now, been following p&d .

    My scheduled session for yesterday was 17 with 14 @MP which I predict to be 8.20 .

    I have been doing all long runs at under 75% giving me an average pace of 9 -9.15s 

    Todays MP run averaged 79% with a max of 84% in the last 2 miles.

    Brian , having just seen your post on average HR for the marathon being 88% am I underestimating my PMP, ? 

  • Hi all, spent most of the weekend reading through the posts here and feel that Hadd training is the way for me to go forward.

    My current pb's are;

    Parkrun 5k (2013) 23.39

    10k (2012) 50.09

    HM (2013) 1hr 52.09 (full of cold)

    My HM felt good for the first 9 miles then I wilted seriously hence my searching for ways to build a better endurance base.

    My LSR I generally run in about 9:10-9:40 pace, which is probably way too fast. So yesterday I went out for a LSR of 13.1 miles and slowed it down to an average of 10.10-10.15 pace with an average HR of about 150bpm, my maximum has hit about 200bpm - looking at everyone else's HR's mine seems a tad on the high side!

    Reading through all the Hadd stuff I notice that generally you should work at about 70% of MaxHR, however I have also read about your slow runs being equal to your 5k PB + 3 mins, so I guess I need to slow down a bit more to about 10.30 min/miles or 140pbm HR?

    I have another HM planned for 3 weeks so my plan is to slow my LSR's down and increase my mileage currently about 30miles per week. I will then try and put Hadd training into action. I have a 15 mile race in July and am hopng to do a marathon at the end of August so will use the Hadd as best as I can between now and then.

    Any suggestions in the meantime very much welcomed.

  • Welcome Lisaimage,

    Just check the 200bpm isn't a 'spike' - I've had readings of 220 before now and I know my max is (was - as I haven't checked for a while) 184. Most of initial HADD training (depending on current fitness level) is done between 70% and 75%. Initially you may find 75% easier in terms of keeping the HR stable and given time you should find that the HR will drop for the same pace.

    A good starting point (if you haven't already) is to read through the HADD document (I haven't got the direct link but there should be one a few pages back - or if someone has please post it here for Lisa)

  • Welcome back NN (and welcome lisa too).

    The word on the street is that HRmax for marathon is somewhere between 86 and 88%. What I have found from experience is that when I progress my 80% runs to 83%, the pace (over a 70min segment) equates to eventual mp. Also 83% is my starting hr in the marathon ie. I will run the first 6miles at 83% letting the hr increase gradually and evenly so as to hit 86% at halfway. The hr will continue to rise and inevitably will hit 90% at some point, hopefully not before the 20mile point.

    Last 10k is "kitchen sink time".
  • Hi lisa, the "5k + 3min" pace is generally used for runners who "can't" run at below 75%.

    As BeDe says, you should aim for 70-75% range which appears go be 140-150 hr.



    Keep it long and easy up until your hm, then we can use the stats from that race and your weekly training to assess the way forward.
  • Thanks for the reply Brian, I have been assuming that 80% was going to be MP which is around 8.15-8.20 min miles, 78-82  was pretty steady for the whole 14 miles 1 hour 56 at the end of a really heavy weeks training so I was pleased with that .

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