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Brian, Thanks for your reply of 13th March. I honestly thought I hadn't yet actually posted that question!
I'm still a confused though. I see no reason why you cannot run at hadd-type heart-rates on 3-4 days a week, to train the efficiency of the slow-twitch muscle fibres.... and incorporate one or two more intense sessions.
That programme seems to capture the main ethos of hadd (as I understand it) and be well balanced. People seem to be saying that if they have any high intensity training in their normal week, then they cannot be considered to be hadd training... and there seems to be an implication that the high-intensity training is detrimental to the hadd training goals.
Any further clarification from anyone would be welcome.
Run Wales ... Hadd training (as discussed here anyway) is "base training" ... the aim is to build the aerobic capacity of the muscles fibres. High intensity work that causes the body to swim in lactate will counteract this aerobic development. The sub-LT sessions are designed to run at an intensity that is not detrimental to aerobic development ... indeed they help it (and they ARE tough). Once base phase is over, then you bring in the harder sessions in the run up to the main target races ... during this period you start erode the aerobic base (which is why you need to build it properly to start with). The situation is probably most extreme with 800m runners ... by the end of the race season they have usually eroded their aerobic capacity down so low, they can't get up the stairs.
Still plodding along here with 6x5M and 1x13M per week, all easy ... 10K race on Sunday ... and then the sub-LT sessiosn will begin. I am racing the Leeds HM in 8 weeks and intend to use the sub-LT sessions as my main "session". Ideally I should be throwing in some HMP and 10KP but I won't have time.
Dr Dan - are your sub LT sesions at 80%?
sorry, been absent for a while due to P&D marathon training which is a bit less HADDy. Good to see the usual suspects on here doing well Hi Lisa, if you are still interested in the HADD doc, PM me and I e-mail it to you. Agree what others said - 200 could be a spike. I sometimes get silly readings too.Still trying to mix some HADD into the P&D training by sticking to the 70-75% rule over the GA and long runs and incorporating some 80% stuff into the MLRs. It seems to work . Paces overall have improved loads. Just a shame that winter has come back here with a vengeance affecting my running badly this week. There isn't enough snow to wear Yaktrax but too much to attempt anything slightly faster . My 10k race at the weekend was cancelled into the bargain. Oh well, my calendar is just telling me it's the official beginning of Spring tomorrow . Yeah, right ....
BeDe wrote (see)
Dr Dan - are your sub LT sesions at 80%?
My target HR comes out at between 81-82%, although I usually run to pace for the first 2-3 miles and let the HR build up ... once I'm used to it, the final pace is usually around my "McMillan MP" based on what the calculator tells me I can run a marathon at (based on recent race times).
Nice Hadd-P&D merging there Chick. No snow in Leeds!
Lucky you, Dr. Dan P&D 13 miler with 10@ 80% d&d this morning. Very happy to manage 7:53 mm over the LT bit (@ 79% of max). My best sub LT run so far . Should move up to 83% now methinks ... but it's hard with all those extra layers to keep warm and trying to avoid the ice. Today was a bit hairy too in a few spots.
Nice sub-LT session Chick!
Brian ... tasty! How did you do that session? Making use of the very handy 1/4 mile markers on the canal I'm guessing ... but what pace and how long were the rests?
3rd double commute day on the trot ... and after 13.2M on Sunday, the legs are telling me that's enough! Will cycle on Thursday, do a gentle 5ish in Friday and rest Saturday. And run like the wind on Sunday!
Thanks Dr Dan & Brian,
I'm getting closer in my understanding... but I'm afraid I'm still asking questions! Dr. Dan... this really surprises me. Maybe I'm misinterpretting it... I think you're saying that I can build up my aerobic system with hadd (mitochondrials in the slow twitch etc)... on (say) 3-4 days a week... but if, on two other days, I do high intensity work, so that the muscles are swimming in lactates, this causes a reversal of the mitochondrial efficiency improvements.
And you're saying that during the season, an 800m runner exhausts their base fitness. Is this because a summer of lactate has eaten away at all the slow-twitch fibre mitochondrials... or is it solely down to too little time training in the aerobic zone?
Ultimately, I'll follow the ethos that enjoyment is key. Any improvements I achieve might improve my race finishing postion from 200th place to 175th... so not likely to get a mention on Sky Sports News.. but I'm interested scientifically (despite my simplifications), and naturally feel that I might as well use knowledge to maximise the value of training.
RW ... yes, I believe that the view is that the acidosis associated with lactate build up works against aerobic development. I remember Moraghan saying he couldn't even lift a pen without generating lactic acid by the end of his 800m season. Now, for a sporadic 5K-marathon hacker like me, I don't do nearly enough high-intensity stuff to worry too much about degrading aerobic base. But, technically, base phase shouldn't contain anything that generates lactate acid (so strides are okay, or short (5-8s) hill sprints).
Brian. wrote (see)
Chick, great stuff on the 80% improvements. Not so sure I would move up yet though. Are you doing mp runs as part of p&d and if so whats target mp? I did 10x1/4mile yesterday. Unwise though as my foot is sore today.
target MP is 7:48ish (aiming for sub 3:25), so I got pretty close. Wondering if 83% would be target MP (I think it might)
NN: This whole training malarkey is very confusing. Perhaps it's not too clever mixing 2 different training plans But I like the HADD approach - I think it's really working for me. When I did P&D on its own I was simply running too fast. I feel a lot more in control with HADD.
I've been absent for a while due to work stuff and some travel. I took yet another trip...this time to Santa Monica with my wife (she had a meeting so for once I got to tag along). I found a 10 mile bike path along some of the most beautiful beaches I've seen. Logged 50 miles in 5 days and had a couple of holy shit moments. My fitness is slamming into me right now since getting some better rest and more consistent weeks put in.
Picked up a copy of P&D on the trip and read it through. I'm thinking this might be a good, structured plan to follow for a fall marathon (keep hadding with 1 80% run per week until then). I'm torn though as the 55 mile plan doesn't sound quite enough while the 70 mile may be too much. Might have to walk between the 2.
And I finally went in for a colonoscopy (remember I had been passing blood around christmas...happened at the conclusion of a 70 mile week after a long run). Well, all was completely normal and the doc said it was likely ischemia to the colon. Apparently he's seen this pretty commonly among distance runners. I'm relieved that all is well down there and also to know it's probably not a big deal if happens every once and a while. He said if it happened with high frequency I'd have to cut my miles.
Good news VT!
VT - relief!!
Lost mojo at the moment - training has dropped right off (was only 25 - 30m per week anyway). V.Busy at present and lifestyle not conducive to getting some miles in.
Will have to start getting some discipline back - does anyone else feel the same after a race??
VT - great news !!
BeDe - maybe your body's telling you to take a bit of a break ?
Chick - Hi !!! You're right, i had every intention of doing my 14 MLR this morning based on HR ( having done a V02 session yesterday) but P&D got the better of HADD and i ended up running progressive without realising it. It's becoming ingrained i think and will take some discipline when i go back to my old buddy HADD.
VT glad all is well.
Moved forward by one week my unloading period due to a sore throat. Tried a 5 miler at 71% today and apart from feeling stiff all seems well.
Great stuff, VT! Happy to hear everything is alright roy: hope you beat those pesky bugs. Hi mace . I canned my VO2 sesh this week . I have a bunch of niggles that I can just about control with high mileage "normal" running. Scared about those reps setting off something ...
Lost mojo at the moment - training has dropped right off (was only 25 - 30m per week anyway). V.Busy at present and lifestyle not conducive to getting some miles in. Will have to start getting some discipline back - does anyone else feel the same after a race??
Yep, I usually struggle with mojo after a major race effort. Take it easy. Your body will tell you when you are ready again. I call it itchy feet OK, 2nd MLR of the week d&d. 15 miles. Tough conditions (snow, wind, cold). But happy with the outcome. I think I was right in assuming that 83% of max. HR would equate MP . Never got to try it during one of those HADD MP runs as my HRM was playing up and it took me a while to get it replaces.Here's the geeky bit 15 miles - split into 6 chunks of 2.5 alternating steady/MP/steady/MP etc
w/u 8:24 127 70%MP: 7:40 142 78%steady: 8:04 142 70%MP: 7:42 146 80%steady: 8:08 142 78%MP: 7:42 149 82%c/d: 8:19 140 77%
chickadee - fantastic stats - luv them
Keep up the good work - Im hoping my feet will start itching again next week
thanks I made a typo though .... the 1st steady bit was av. 140 - 77%
Im sure it'll come back BeDe Im in week 2 of no running with Achilles problems and Im desparate to get back out there - though its snowy at the mo.
Hi all have done a couple of Hadd style runs this week but have had a huge difficulty with my HR staying steady (especially after particularly challenging days at work) so have also done a couple of faster paced runs, ignoring my HR.
However today I managed a LSR of 13.5 miles with my HR averaging 140bpm which is about 72% of my max HR.
As my HR appears so much higher then everyone else's on here I decided to do a few hill repeats yesterday to give me a better idea of what my Max HR- my HR after 3 hills was 193bpm, I couldn't do anymore as the snow was getting too heavy and the underfoot conditions were deteriorating fast. So for those in the know does this sound about right?
As I have a HM 2 weeks today I feel that for my own peace of mind that I need to do a couple of runs at race pace in the lead up. After this I can concentrate a bit more on Hadding as my next race is the Bewl 15 miler in July (I do have a 10k in May but I want to concentrate on longer distances - so am not worried about that one)
Lisa - Im no expert but MaxHR can vary quite a bit, mine is 183, my wife's is 163. In John Parkers book he suggests a fresh pair of legs eg after a rest day and hill repeeats of 4 or more as your HR does continue to rise.
Im interested in the physiology of the debate earlier - is there any evidence to suggest that Lactic acid 'damages' the mitochondria in the slow twitch muscle ie is there a trade off somewhere. Anyone know?