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Lactic acid damages muscles fibres (acidosis) ... so there is indeed a trade-off between aerobic development and high intensity training, as I mentioned earlier.
10.3 slushy/icey/muddy miles yesterday on the towpath out on the west side of Leeds and another 8 miles today on the nice new tarmac canal tow-path in central Leeds. Cold ... roll on spring!
Thanks Dr D, was just wondering if there was more out there covering this subject and how this impacts training etc. I found this link on wikipedia regarding lactic acidosis
Interesting that this is - lactic acidosis - is the first stage of rigormortis ...makes sense!
Leecampbelluk wrote (see)
Thanks Dr D, was just wondering if there was more out there covering this subject and how this impacts training etc. I found this link on wikipedia regarding lactic acidosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acidosis Interesting that this is - lactic acidosis - is the first stage of rigormortis ...makes sense!
Crikey 15 frozen miles this morning with 10 @ sub LT. Very happy to average 7:49 (bang on MP) and 82% of max. Yeah, whatever happened to spring?????
Mojo back - started running (well plodding) again yesterday - hurrah!!
Explains what happened on my 1st marathon I was suffering from rigormortiis, felt like I was dieing at the time.
BeDe due to the detrimental effect of speed work on HADD training I dont run over 85% MHR
for the first 4 months of the year, just focusing on 70%-85% efforts.
BeDe - glad youre back in the swing of things - mightily jealous as Im on day 17 of NO training!! Arrrgggh - completely driving me nuts Im restricted to swimming [boring!] and walking [tooo slow].
However achilles is feeling better and the new inner soles now feel good.
Im going to 'run through' the 3 trailblazer 10k's at the end of May early June with absolutely no eye on any times. So I'll start at the back of one of the sub55 groups and jog round keeping a low HR. I will be starting HADD proper about then for the rest of the year and maybe do the odd parkrun just to feel part of things.
new target - run 15miles by end of year with avgHR of less than 75% doing an even pace of less than 10min/miles.
Lee - really horrible having injuries, my sympathies.
New target sounds good - by sticking to HADD at less than 75% you should be injury free (depending on mileage of course). Certainly helped me when I decided I'd had enough of muscle pulls.
HADD aside if I may - does anyone else have big problems with a Garmin HR? Mine just seems to be stupid with readings of 230+ spikes and then seems to stay high all the way round - I stop and take manual so i know its wrong. Yet when i first had it (16mths ago) it was fine. Fortunately I've put enough hours in at different paces to know what I should be running at for a given HR.
Do people think they are just part of the cost of running and in this throwaway world we live in and just replace it every 12 months??
yeah sounds like a rouse by Garmin - bet it wasn't cheap! I have a polar f2 which was 30 quid and does the job if a bit basic as I dont get the mileage breakdown etc. I'll probably go with a polar HR strap and hook it up to my iPhone app at some point.
Unfortunately my injury wasnt because of high mileage or hard sessions. I saw 2 - yes 2! - physio's when I started and they both told me my gait was neutral and I wouldnt need any special support etc. The third one told me I over pronate and asked why was I running in the shoes I had bought - she was bordering on being quite cross with me!
I have lumps [scare tissue] on my achilles and I doomed to wearing something with a heel at all times for the rest of my days.
Im really not happy! I went to the physio's rather than a shop because I thought Id get a non bias answer - didn't expect to get a completely wrong one twice!
I'm afraid I view most advice from physios with a large dollop of sceptisism.
Run with good(ish) form ... wear light-weight shoes ... and don't over-train! Simple. Well, except the last bit.
I've given up using my HRM at the moment ... they just don't behave in very cold weather. They need sweat ... and I can't sweat in this weather unless I run faster (and of course I don't want to). So at the moment my running is based in easy/recover pace as judged by perceived effort. The HRM will make a return when/if spring ever comes.
The best way to make HRM's work is to use that contact gel stuff, but it gets messy, so spit can do the job and is easier! I use the Polar H7 strap and the many times I forget to wet the strap, I always get silly results in the first few k's. Really annoying, but at least I still get a good indication when looking at the charts for the rest of the run
Spit is a good way to get started (in fact pretty essential) ... but without some sweat generation it soon dries up and the silly readings kick in.
mmmm KY jelly - I knew it would come in handy sometime
Had no problems with mine - wet it with saliva and make sure its a snug fit and away I go with no problem. KY sounds pretty messy! Maybe try the contact gel the physio uses during my endless ultra sound sessions!
Only 2 weeks before I can start to walk/run as long as it remains pain free!!
Hi folks, am sure this has been asked a thousand times in here so shoot me down in flames if I didn't read enough of the thread
53 year old off/on slow runner for a few years and just signed up for the Loch Ness Marathon in September. Am one of those that just used to run a far and fast as he could in every session but had no stamina. About a month ago I slowed down to 12min/miles and can now run 7.5 miles without a walkbreak - that was done with an average HR of 68%. since then I've taken almost 2 weeks off with the flu and running the same speed over 5 miles my HR has increased to 75%. Whilst that sort of still fits in with the HADD approach I'd prefer to see it lower again. I live in a pretty hilly area imo and the last 4 five milers had inclines of 700/800/1200/1000 feet (I do in/out routes normally so they all have similar declines). I do slow down on the longer hills but my HR still climbs in fact there are a couple where even walking increases my HR.
My question and this might turn out to be a biggy for me... are these percentages worked out from MHR or WHR? My ceiling recovery HR of 70% using WHR (as I normally do) is 146bpm but simply using 70% of MHR it's 128bpm, likewise my Lactate threshold is 164bpm using WHR and 155bpm using MHR. The more I read the more confused I get lol.
HADD is about maxHR and doing 75% MaxHR runs. If you are recovering from flu then you HR will be elevated by a few beats here or there for some time afterwards.
Hills are tricky but looks like you have no choice but to walk them if there's nowhere flat enough for you to run.
Andi - welcome
Somewhere on the thread there will be a link to the original HADD document - if you can find it and download it then it goes into much more detail about the HADD methodology. 70%-75% (MaxHR) averaged out over the run is where most of the HADD training is done. HADD does say that if HR 'slips' over the 75% it is OK as long as the HR is brought down quickly again.
As a very basic outline once you can run for 10 miles at 75% MaxHR with no drop in pace then the training can move up a notch - but I won't cover that here - best to search out the pdf link.
I wouldn't worry about differentiating between the 2 because as you say it is confusing the issue - for instance 'Lactate Threshold' is an individual thing and can't be predicted based on either WHR or MHR. Lactate Threshold will occur at a specific HR depending on your own physiology and current level of fitness irrespective of which measurement system you want to use.
Just to give you an idea - I'm only a year older than you and started HADD in Sept 2012 - I ran 16 weeks at nothing other than less than 75% - result = 1 min per mile improvement in my pace for just running SLOW. Nothing more nothing less. I then decided to up the training slightly in prep for a Half Marathon and knocked off 7 minutes for a PB and felt I could have done better as I finished really strong which was a testament to the improved aerobic base I had created during the base phase training. Now I'm back to just HADD again and plan to do nothing but 75% work for quite a while.
Definitely recommend getting the HADD document - can anyone provide the link for Andi (for the doc).
Would it possible for a site moderator to edit the first post of this thread - inserting the key hadd document / links?
It would certainly be very useful.
Hi Andi nice to see you over here
This is the Hadd document I have read http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
I also read through a lot of the pages on this thread to get a bit of an understanding of the theory in practice, and some have had fantastic results. It's the patience that I may struggle with.
My HM is in less then 2 weeks now and then I willtry and commit to Hadd training properly, although I have a 10k race at the end of May so will probably do a bit of 80% HR effort near to that.
RunW - I agree - but don't know how to do that - anyone?
Probably need to start a new thread. Link the docs and the old thread.
Thanks for the welcomes/replies folks, I did read the full HADD document a couple of years ago and guess I should read it all again but kind of lost interest when I got to the rats (how did they know when they were running at the required %'s??).
Fancy meeting you here Lisa and thanks for the link! I see the OP (JohnnyBike) is still active so maybe somebody that knows him could get him to edit his first post adding the required reading links? I'll also spend a while reading back, have seen plenty of good stuff thus far.
I still have 6 weeks of gentle plodding before I start Marathon Training and hope to be up to 10 miles @
Welcome Andi even older than BeDe but the improvments are amazing with this training.
I have also entered Loch Ness and will only ( this time ) use HADD training . Next time, will look at HADD+ ie speed work.
Hi Roy, my plan with Loch Ness is just to get round in 5 hours and reckon my company will be the guys removing the barriers
By default I guess I'll be doing plenty of hill training so like you the speed (if there is any left in me) can wait
Managed 6.23 miles today, bang on my 12 min/mile target with an AHR of 143bpm (68%).
Just noticed my last post got cut off somehow, it should have read I'm aiming to get up to 10 miles below 70% and still 12 min miles.
Andi, we have 6 months of HADDing in front of us, a lot of training and I am sure we can accomplish what we want.
After 6 months last year of HADDing I was training at a pace that I had been racing at pre HADD.
Roy, 6 months sounds a long time but am already halfway through my 3 months base training and it only seems like last week it all started!
Sounds like it's really working for you, what time are you aiming for at Loch Ness?
I am aiming for 3.30 and most of my sub LT runs are at that effort 80% to 83% MHR, works out at 8 mins a mile. At the mo I am up to 12.5 miles at that pace/effort, once a week.
I am reasonably sure that I could not keep that effort up for more than 3/4 miles, but still got 6 months to work at it.
Should have said, 3/4 miles more than I am running now
Impressive Roy! That goal is well beyond me but you never know
Howdy Hadders. Just checking in. Logged another 60 mile week. Started it off with a 12 mile run (9 miles at 80% in the middle), got a 16 miler in at 70% effort, and all the rest of the runs were at 68-70% effort. Many gains showing up the past two weeks. My comfort on the 80% runs is beginning to retrun and my speed is slowing coming back too; Still couldn't go round again though. And the other nice development is that I'm able to consistently run in the 135-140 Hr range on my easy runs (before they would typically be in the mid140s to lower 150s nearly every run; my max HR is 199 so 140 = 70%). So my engine seems to have picked up another gear. The last time my HR dropped like this I got hurt so I'm embracing the fact that I'm still just hadding until midjune. That means my weeks will consist of 1 80% run, 1 long run (14-18 miles) in either easy or progressive mode (depending how I feel each week), and the rest of my runs at 70% or less. The long run and the 80% are spaced (Sunday and Wednesday, respectively). I will not burn the cake this time!
VT & Roy out of interest how long have you been Hadding for, and did you complete just base training for a set period before introducing the 80% effort?
VT your Hr's are about the same as mine which is good to read as everyone else's seems low in comparison. Good to hear that you are noticing gains with training this way.