Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Colin

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  • Steve - those Piranhas are surely designed for shorter races?  Just saw something which said they are 138 gr.  Not sure what size that would be but my Adidas are about 220gr and do have a bit more cushioning.   Off the top of my head my Nimbus are  just over 400gr, the Saucony's about 390 and the Mizuno's about 350.

    Slightly surprised that you and PMJ don't think shoe weight makes much difference for 3 hr + runners.  I very much doubt that I could break 3.15 in any of my general running shoes. edit:but hey perhaps I'm all the gear and no idea!

  • No chs - that's me. I would look hilarious plodding around in 4:30 in doody racing shoes!image
  • Yes piranhas aren't for marathons and shoe weight make a difference at all speeds but the very light racing shoes won't be for most marathoners and the weight saved will probably lead to sorer legs and impaired performance if you run 26.2 miles in featherlight racers and are on your feet for 3 hours plus

    but if anyone is racing in shoes that are on the heavy side which to me is 300-350gg plus, then I do recommend trying to get a pair 50g lighter than you are used to for racing but try them out in faster runs and speedwork first and if used to heavier shoes, start with the racer/trainer models first

  • Unfortunately Speedy, it was just a playback of the new album (before the days of internet). Me & my mates were convinced they would walk on stage at the end, but sadly not. It was a good night out either way!

    4.55 miles tonight at an average pace 8.33 and average HR 138bpm.
    Took the opportunity, to do a different route and check out the local area that I normally only drive through. Strange the way you notice things when running.

    I'm liking the Asics Nimbus shoes I'm using at the moment - very comfortable shoes. I'd be interested in the lighter ones to race in as I tend just to have one pair at a time and just wear them out, then get another pair. You'd probably still be quicker thna me Steve in hob nail boots!

  • Agree the Nimbus is comfortable but I do find them a little heavy on the legs.

    Perhaps ought to clarify that I bought the Nimbus about 3 years ago, the Saucony's about 2 years ago and the Mizunos about a year ago.  The Nimbus have done about 800 miles and the other two about 1000 each.  They're all coming to the end but I'm hoping to squeeze a bit more life out of them all yet!    

  • My last 3 pairs of shoes were the Mizuno Waves chs, which were a good shoe. Never had or worn any of those lighter racing shoes so I can't compare the weight to what I have now. Hopefully I will get a pair some day and have a eureka moment!
  • For the mile reps, I suggest a gentle start - best to do them 6:45, 6:35, 6:25, 6:15 than the other way around!

    CHS Personally don't think a good idea to be using shoes three years old. Many injuries occur as the shoes come to a natural end.

    KR recommend the Gel Racer, which is much heavier than the Piranhas to try in speedwork and your next shorter race.

  • Thanks very much Steve. I'll try that interval session at lunchtime.

    KR - nice easy run yesterday. Glad to hear that you're also discovering the joy of easy running. Let's hope we feel that way after 25 miles... Ha ha. 

    I've just signed up for the Tunbridge Wells half marathon on 26 Feb. Anyone done that? The hills sounds pretty brutal, so not gunning for a PB, but it sounds like a good course. 

  • TW is a lovely course - challenging hills (particularly spring hill) but pretty kind last 4 miles and fabulous organisation.

    The marshalls and support around the course are super and you get a medal presented by Dame Kelly Holmes - not bad!

  • Not sure that lightweight racing shoes would make that much difference for me - I'd be far better off losing the 7lb that's round my middle!
  • CHS - 800 and 1000 miles?!!! I'm only on 300-odd in my newest pair and I'm getting nervous already...
  • A good couple of days sticking to your plan KR.  Good to see how you HR dropped on your easy run last night.

    See why you call it Hoodie Park then.  Not that nice at any time of the day but wouldn't fancy it after dark.  I bought my first pair of lighter trainers last year after ranging through Asics 2150/Kayano/Kinsei.  Got the Gel Trainer model and they are so much lighter than the others (couldn't go the whole way down to the Racer).  I don't run more than 10 miles in them as tried it once and my shins started to ache.

    5 miles for me last night.  1m warm up, then 6.49, 6.52, 6.48 and 1m cooldown.   A very controlled but enjoyable session.

  • x-post Gul.  I start to look at changing mine around the 450-500 mark.  Most I have had on a pair of mine was last year.  I got up to 600 miles for one pair but that included a lot of summer towpath running.
  • chs wrote (see)

    Slightly surprised that you and PMJ don't think shoe weight makes much difference for 3 hr + runners.  I very much doubt that I could break 3.15 in any of my general running shoes. edit:but hey perhaps I'm all the gear and no idea!

    I did 2:57 in May wearing a $30 pair of general purpose Nike trainers. I am now back on Nike Air Pegasus which are just over 300g so I am thinking this time of getting something lighter, any suggestions? I have some Adidas Adizero which I race up to half marathon in but they do look very light alongside the Pegasus.

    There will also be a big impact on running style, I have very low foot lift so it probably does not have as much impact on me as it will on those with high lift.

  • Beware Of The Fish wrote (see)
    Not sure that lightweight racing shoes would make that much difference for me - I'd be far better off losing the 7lb that's round my middle!
    Not sure of that. We work a lot with F1 and the big issue there is unsprung mass. I expect the runner has a similar tradeoff so a kg on the midde is nt the same as a kg on the feet.
  • Gul - I know but I was at Sweatshop a couple of weeks ago image and they told me that they thought all my shoes had a bit of life left in them.   I'm hoping I'll be able to tell when they've had it - that was certainly the case with my Fastwitch's that lasted about 300 miles.   I'm a bit tight so don't like throwing shoes away prematurely!

    Hesitate to say that I got some Asics Gel 1100's (general running shoes) in the sale a couple of weeks ago - £40 - which I thought was a good price.  They're still in their box and will come out when at least two of the existing pairs are in the bin!

  • Very interested in the salty sweat conversation... I fit into that category. Plus, I tend not to add any additional salt to my food, so I'm wondering if I might be starting with a bit of a deficit. While I haven't actually cramped up in the final miles of my maras, I have had to slow down because I thought that I would cramp up if I maintained the pace I wanted. So, is this an excuse for "crisps loading" along with our "carbo loading" beforehand?

    KR, forgive me if I've missed this, but have you done a max HR test? You seem to be close to me in many ways (target time, age, etc), I'd be interested to be able to understand your run reports better.

    And my final OT contribution: Blaas of Glory. A Dutch heavy metal marching band. If you spot them on youtube, you'll find that they've got armadillos in their trousers. It's really quite frightening. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIs1OLQm3I

  • Your comment PMJ about changing runn ing style is interesting , but be good to know how much your style changes depending on shoe. I am a neutral runners and have always gopne for shoes with cushioning.

    Hi Rennur, I don't add any salt to my food either, so will be interested to know what Ruth suggests about salt intake, not only as a day to day thing butin the build up to race day. How much and how long before hand. Not sure on max HR, I think it is 178 judging by the 220 minus age. Wil check out that link later at home!

  • Hi all,

    I have raced two marathons in Adios and for me they are just a little too lightweight at 220gr. And so from now on will only race using the Bostons (which I also have done twice). They just offer a little more cushioning for when your quads are screaming at 23 miles! I am however a fat heel striker so perhaps  suffer a little more from the impact.. but I dont know.

    I do seem to get a lot of use out of my shoes though. I have one pair of Mizuno Ultimas with over 950 on and they are showing no signs of being ready for the bin yet. I also have three pairs of Bostons that have over 700 miles on and all good. image

    Marathon Coach Steve, what happened to CE on Saturday? I saw she was racing well after the first lap but then dropped out. Hope she's not injured again as she was only just getting back to it was she not?

  • Re: the shoe argument / debate. When I did this comp 2 years ago we were given free Adidas trainers and I used them pretty much exclusively through the training and ended up knocking out a (then PB) 38min 10k time about 3 weeks out from London in them. They're the neutral shoe and I ran London in a newer version of them and used them again at Chester 5 weeks later when I did 3h12.
    Those free trainers have lasted me until 2 weeks ago so about 2 years image

    The London/Chester trainers I'm still wearing so they're getting close to the 2 year mark and still going strong and I've just got a new pair of neutral Sauconys to run in.

    I totally agree that in the marathon, unless you're under 2h45 then lightweight shoes offer no advantages and may cause you trouble when you're fatigued after the 20 mile mark. Any weight advantage will be offset by the lack of support when your gait goes, your form becomes sloppy and you start to hit the floor harder and slower. No worth it imo. I did run Ashby 20 last year (2-13) in Nike Marathoners and lost my big toenail as a result so ditched the idea of long races in lightweight racers after that.

    I run in Adidas Kanadia trail shoes on occasion, race xc in spikes, run 5km to 5miles in Nike Mayflys, race 10k to HM in Saucony Fastwitch and occasionally run in Vibram Fivefingers but the majority of the "grunt work" is done in normal, neutral trainers.

    I think BOTF has hit the nail on the head with the fact that losing weight (in kg) on yourself will make more of a difference than shoes that weigh a few grammes less

  • EmmaC - Tunbridge HM race sounds fab. I'm looking forward to it now. Thanks for your thoughts.

    I've just done the 3 x 2m interval session. Quite tough but managed to stick to Steve's pacing plan, so many thanks for that.

    Mile 5 of 6 was 6:28, which is good for me - particularly as it's my first interval session since injuring my foot in October.  It sounds like I'm the slowest on this thread, but really pleased to learn from you all.

    Right, I'm off to weigh my trainers now... I wear Nike Triax 14. 

  • knight rider wrote (see)

    Your comment PMJ about changing running style is interesting , but be good to know how much your style changes depending on shoe.

    When I said "There will also be a big impact on running style" I mean that people with different styles will have different reaction to different shoe weights. Here is a typical finish photo of me, I am the one gurning. 436 has his foot level with his knee, if he has a heavy shoe he has to lift it from the ground up to his knee and back down each step and that takes energy and will eventually cost him time. I barely lift my feet off the ground, this is about as high as it goes. I beat him in the end by a second.

    Agree that weight is a big factor but your centre of mass does not go up and down anywhere as near as much as your feet do, least it should not unless you run like spotty dog.

    http://www.prosportphotos.com/running/2011/milton-keynes-half-marathon/finish/images/IR2Z4974.jpg

  • I have Fast-twitches which just get dusted down and taken out for short races ONLY. They feel like slippers compared to my Nike Triaxx things and I certainly feel like I can go faster in them. I always enjoy putting them on. Plus they're yellow.The idea of running a marathon in them would be scary though

    436 looks like he could run through a brick wall if he had to - thighs of steel - good to see you took him down PMJ !

  • I'll be getting my racers out for a 1 miler tomorrow night. Brooks ST3s.
  • I think you have a valid point BOTF about weight. If there is excess to what ever degree, then losing some weight can only add to your performance. I think I have found my natural weight. About 2 years ago I increased my runing to 4 times a week and the excess few pounds I had went and have so far stayed off. Obviously the extra run a week has helped my running, but the weight loss (albeit minimal) must have had a benefit too.

    Great photo PMJ - a good grimacing, determined face. Looks like your composure is still there.

    I was mentally trying to add up the amount of shoes MM you have, but had to resort to writing it down! That's some collection and proof of the point that you should use certain shoes for certain conditions/race distances/training. Economics force me to pretty much use one pair of shoes (to the death), but will invest in an extra racing pair methinks. I'm looking forward to trying some out one day from all the positive comments about them.

    I think I should have at least 2 pairs of shoes on the go as I've heard some runners (Martin I think?) talk about the cushioning in the shoe takes more than a day to recapture it's former self so to speak. Strange to hear you saying you get more than the prescribed 500 miles out of your shoes RJ and also you too MM. I tend to go by the wear on the sole of the shoe. It's interesting to see how different makes of shoe can wear out in different place too - good indication of how your foot strikes the floor!

  • Just tried to post a message which was largely based on the link below.  Didn't work (probably because I tried to copy the picture).  

     http://running.competitor.com/2012/01/photos/kissing-world-records-goodbye-sneak-peek-at-the-adidas-adizero-adios-2_38733

    Anyway interesting discussion on the shoes.  Each to their own I guess and wear what you're comfortable in.  And don't suddenly decide to run in racing shoes on marathon day if you're not used to them.

  • CC2 - Speedy Goth wrote (see)
    I'll be getting my racers out for a 1 miler tomorrow night. Brooks ST3s.
    Is that some kind of race then Speedy? - more details please...
  • Seems like everything's going according to plan KR, though your music taste needs some work.

    The only music to run to is progressive house, trance or cheesey "euphoria" stuff (even a bit of Chicane does you no harm now and again!). I have even been known to "dance" with my hands during runs. Looks a bit camp at best, I suspect. Utterly deranged at worst. I will send you a playlist (in return, I promise I'll run to one of yours...)

    I've realised I've double booked for the w/e of Marathon of the North, so instead planning on running the new (I think?) Manchester marathon on April 29th. So I need to get on with following that training plan! Which half marathon (if any) are you planning on doing in the build up? Apols if it's mentioned elsewhere - I'm still not online at home (sat at work like a saddo right now) so haven't been able to spend that much time reading through everything!

    Need to study the trainer advice more closely as about to make an investment.... and good to read the dietary advice, too.

    Right, I'm off - thinking of joining Tyne Bridge Harriers for 6.15AM run in the morning...

  • oscarr wrote (see)

    Rosie - Craig - Emma (all Sam's students) Just come back from an extremely inspirational talk at a local gym by Steve Edwards who is a guy from Coventry who is an Extreme Marathon Runner - some of his stats (which are numerous including many world records and Guinness records) are:

    > world record for fastest athlete to run 500 (five hundred) marathons at avge of 3hrs 18mins

    > various other world marathon records including 87 in one calendar year averaging 3hrs 14mins each

    > has done the Windermere 10 in 10 days 4 times with world best times (best of 33hrs 16mins)

    > on average has run an official marathon race every 16 days for the last 24 years

    Not suggesting you target these (!!!!!!) but the reason I write this is that the key points he made were very similar to those made at bootcamp and by Steve and Sam afterwards including;

    - work on core strength and glutes several times a week

    - nutrition has been key to his continued success

    - importance of stretching (dynamic pre-run then static after)

    - gradual weekly mileage buildup with an easy week every 3 or 4 weeks for recovery

    - have a long term vision then short term targets to get there and plan, plan, plan

    - enjoy the whole journey (some sessions may be tough but overall enjoy it)

    Many more points made.  Please be encouraged that what the Target 26.2 programme is putting you through and how it is being done is going to reap its rewards - it has done it for Steve Edwards and many more folk as well.  Cheersimage

    KR - you and your followers may be interested in this post. Thought initially you may know all this already but decided to copy you anyway.
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