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Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Colin
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PMJ, thanks for posting those stats. That's some career in running he's had (is still having)! An interesting range of results on his PO ten page, with either XC 5k of marathons and the odd Ultra!
I think Garmins are brilliant but they can be deceptive, like you say Fraser maybe giving us a quicker pace than it actually is. I think a prime example of this is runnnig round a track and to be fair a few twists and turns/tall buiildings/trees etc can all play a part over the distance/time of a marathon. I know sometimes when I look at my garmin it will be flicking from one pace another.
Must try and get some of those Beetroot shots Speedy, I think someone said they sell them in Waitrose? Do you know how much in advance of exercise you need to take them to be of benefit? For example before a Parkrun? I think that rider could have had an off day before hand and the Beetroot shot could have been a placebo - who knows, but certainly worth a go either way. I you can get a PB from it there's nothing wrong in that!
On the subject of the blue line. I think everyone knows that that is the marathon route, so why do you get some people walking on it when they are tired - just pull over to the side
! Lost count of the number of people doing that in Paris.
Rob - In my limited experience a good chunk of running the marathon is what goes on between the ears. It can be easy to become dispondent and lose motivation. To be honest that happened to me to some extent yesterday when the stitch hit at 16 miles. Perhaps a better example is when I did my second marathon in December last year and got lost after about 6 miles. I ran some extra distance and immediately became dispondent and my pace progressively slowed after that. I can't help wondering whether a similar thing happened to you yesterday? You were very focussed on your target pace and followed the garmin (as I did). However, as it became more and more apparent that the gap between the mile markers and the garmin was widening you may have become disappointed that you were not going to hit your overall target. Consequently, it's only natural to become a bit disillusioned, especially with the effort and planning you put in, and you slow down over the remaining section of the course.
As a matter of interest my garmin read 26.47 but the splits on the computer (sportstracks) are slightly different and show 26.68 overall. I dunno how that can be! When I ran Abo last Oct it was almost spot on...
KR - I can see why my stats look as if I was aiming for sub 3 but can assue you this wasn't the case. Honest Guv! Although the garmin was showing an average of 6.48 in the first half, I knew I was nearer 6.52 against the mile markers and that I would fade a bit in the second half. I was just hoping to cling on for longer. Think I would have done had the stitch (and some consequent disappointment) not set in. Whether I'd have been quicker overall running at 7m/m I'll never know!
Andy - I can assure you it's only the training. I've done about 870 miles this year. Yikes! Can recommend a book - Bounce - The myth of talent and the power of practice by Matthew Syed if anyone doubts their abilities.
Steve - your coaching on this thread has been fantastic and always worth listening to. I largely followed a p&d schedule for this campaign but will be trying to get to the next level by improving the quality of some of my sessions (as KR's training plan) next time out. Hope I might get a little closer to you at the finish in 2013!
Martin and PMJ - Fantastic efforts and read your race reports on the sub 3.15 thread or was it sub 3... Very pleased for both of you and thanks very much for the advice over the past few weeks.
Congratulations to Speedy, Minni and Keyboard Worrier! And with that reassurance Speedy, I may just try using the Beet It again!
People walking, stopping etc slap bang in the middle of the road is so tiring I find, I had to dodge and check my stride so many times, but as you say it only puts me off when despondency is in the offing.
If I were as spritely later on it wouldn't produce such resentment I know.
One thing about Londnn is that unless you get on Fast GFA like my sub 3 brother aged 55 she boasted!, it's bound to be the case that conservative pacing will look like a failure, given that everyone around me will go out too fast for themselves and will clog the course when I try to come through!!
I love London so much, but I really want to do a less populated marathon now to go for a PB.
Thanks Fraser / CHS. I am sure you're right that it's a mental barrier. The differences between my watch and the mile markers certainly didn't help. I was also aware that I didn't want to collapse like last year, which was weighing heavily on my mind towards the final three miles.On the positive side, I did feel pretty good until about 23 miles and I think I paced it pretty well up to that point.
Perhaps I'm just not built for marathons. It could be that simple. I really enjoy half marathons and also really enjoy the training for those. I think it's important to reflect on why we run. Personally, I enjoy tempo running. However, I recognise that you need all elements to become a better runner. It's frustrating that I've hit the wall on both of my marathons. I wish I had the answer to why that was, but unfortunately I don't. I know I'm not alone in that, so will take Steve's advice and spend the next two or three years improving my half marathon times. If I manage to cut it down to a decent time, then I may consider giving it another go.
Happy recovery and running everyone. Well done again to all those people who did some amazing PBs. You should be very, very proud.
Hi Guys,
Will copy and paste my race report from the sub 3.15 thread in a sec.
The Garmin thingy - I allow a disparity of 7s a mile from pace to lap time ie run at 7.14mm to get a 7.21 lap time but even that wasnt enough. Mile 25 was 24 secs adrift which put paid to my evens splits. On the positive side this disparity very early on settled me into a sub 3.15 not sub 3.10 frame of mind.
Foremost, thoughtss and respects to Claire Squires family and friends.
My Second Marathon, 1st last year in Chester in 3.25. that campaign was compromised by illness and faded badly at the end (Last 10k in 54 odd. ouch).
Stats;
The speedy (relatively speaking) bit in the middle is because thast where my family was waiting. I also had my highest BPM here - went up by 18 for a short period of time. average for run was 158, highest was 176. My max is 186.
So Garmin says I ran 26.5 miles at an average of 7.17mm. It also says that on mile 14 I ascended 1161 ft, and 1250 on mile 19 - dont remember that bit! My pace on the garmin never dropped below 7.26mm and on lap time I was only over 7.30 on mile 2 and25 (7.42 although pace was 7.19- wtf?).
Started in pen 2 on the red which was ok, but I looked back and felt sorry for pretty much anyone behind me.
Across the line 30 seconds behind the clock. PMJ is bang on regarding people in the wrong pen - I ran past/around/over at least 20 people who had put themselves down as sub 3.10 runners who clearly weren't. I mean - it was bloody obvious.
Being inspired by KR I set off at 7.26mmfor the first two and the world and its dog flooded past. lap time for mile 2 was 7.34 which was disconcerting. 3,4 and 5 at 7-17,14,and 20. Nerves settling, said hello to The world record holder amy and we were averaging 7.24 at this point. Decided to up my pace to low 7 teens to allow 7s lap against pace but still lost 11 seconds over the next three miles although still very controlled and comfortable. At this point I had already settled on 3.15 not 3.10 as I didnt want to start chasing 3.06s pace. All felt good and the pack had settled around me now. Everyone was calling out my name which was amazing.
Steady, feeling in control and not chasing it. Nothing really changed from here until mile 16 (The poacher experience excepted). Felt good and started runnin at 7.07-7.10mm pace and was blasting through the masses. Unfortunately this involved weaving around the masses and didnt really help with the time but felt superb. Another runner had a similar strategy but he couldnt speak english and i cant speak spanish so we just nodded smuggly at each other. And thats its. Had to chase the last 2 miles (wasnt helped by the 23 sdisparity between lap time and pace) but managed but nothing left to sprint at the end this time! Ripped through my bogey zone by using my favourite 2m run three times, all easy all downhill (in my mind)- next to no on went passed after mile 8 - felt absolutely great. Could I have gone faster? Maybe, if I had really pushed maybe a couple of minutes and it would have got me a low 3.11 but for what and at what cost.
I had a pretty good day!
Oh One last thing PMJ I stood on a discarded bottle - 3/4 full with the top down - it almost put me on my arse. They should rip the tops off before giving them out.
Looks like a top bit of pacing to me.
A marvellous day out.
Interesting that you get people in the way from where you start, my brother said the same this year from front of Red.
That looks like a well paced marathon Mennania.It's opne of the questions you ask yourself - what if I went quicker at the start, could have I got a better time - or maybe crashed & burned. A greta improvement from you time backin October on Chester. Are you doing that one again this year?
I know what you mean about the crowds and weaving at the start. Luckily in Paris it was fairly clear for a while and quite a few “eager” runners went past me in the first few miles - but I went past them later on at the end. I think this kind of “run your own race” is possible ,but not sure London is a good place to try it as you end up being held up a lot at the start with people in the wrong pens and then the constant weaving thoughout. I enjoyed London a few years back, but I'm wondering if I want to do it next year if I am looking to improve my time? Brighton seems a good option, but I had an email this morning saying the cost will be £53 up until the 18th of May, then it will go up again to £63!! I think they are taking the Michael with the cost of this now and the fact from next year you have to got to the Expo to pick up your number.
Does anyone else know of a good (flatish) marathon next Spring? Anyone done Barcelona?
Well KR, Manchester, Milton Keynes and Stratford are all this Sunday. Perhaps we could ask PMJ to work out the average finish times...
I chose Manchester as apart from one hill it seemed the flattest. I was put off Milton Keynes by the underpasses (and a distinct rise in elevation in the last six miles) and having done the Stratford half I didn't fancy a two lap race.
Rob/CHS - Did you use Autolap or manually press lap each mile? Autolap is where you get the problems as over the course of a marathon you will lose a good minute or two. If you are manually lapping then you know exactly where you are at any one time. The average lap time is the "true" pace that you need to stick to as it is rare that you will run exactly a mile between each marker.
CHS - Like you say, alot of this marathon lark is mental. I had a few tough miles around the 16-20 mile mark. I always do through those miles. Luckily I have a total change of mindset once I get to 20 for some reason. I can understand why you would let your mind waiver when you lose time to a stitch as it is always going to cost you time that is precious and difficult to make up. You still did yourself proud, as did everyone else on here (and it was the sub-3.15 thread....the sub-3 thread scares me!!!!)
Rob - Did you hit the wall, or was it just seizing up when you stopped for a pit stop? There is a big difference. If you continue to run through the summer then come December time when you would normally start marathon training you will be fitter and faster than you were at the start of this campaign. For example, I struggled to sub-3 last year. This year I did less weekly mileage but came out 9 mins faster. I can only put that down to having another year of running behind me. The only runs I did faster in training this year than last year were my long runs. All progressive and tempo runs were done at a similar pace and intervals this year were slower than last year (more controlled). Do not give it up yet!!!!
Mennania - Excellent PB and report. Good job that bottle didn't do for you!!!
KR - If you get into London next year and want to go sub 3.10 then I may offer to pace you.....if you can stand running 26 miles with a fairy (loved the crowd reaction so much I will be doing it again next year)!!!
My race splits. I won't bore you with my report as it was quite long and can be found on the sub-3.15 thread.
Total Time Time per 5k Ave per Mile
00:19:54 00:19:54 00:06:25
00:39:56 00:20:02 00:06:28
01:00:01 00:20:05 00:06:29
01:20:08 00:20:07 00:06:29
01:24:26 00:00:00 00:06:27
01:40:02 00:19:54 00:06:25
02:00:24 00:20:22 00:06:34
02:20:55 00:20:31 00:06:37
02:41:13 00:20:18 00:06:33
02:49:44 00:08:31 00:06:20
1st Half 01:24:26 00:06:27
2nd Half 01:25:18 00:06:31
Positive split of 52 secs.
I rarely looked at my watch this year apart from at the end of each mile. I also tried not to focus on the actual distance covered and just stuck to checking mile markers. I have to say that being in fancy dress really helped as the crowd reaction pushed me along to sub 2.50. I don't think I could have done it without the costume.
I know that once I got to 23 miles I worked out that I had to run the final 3.2m in 21 mins to break 2.50. I believed that I could do that by keeping the pace to below 6.30s and then as soon as I got to my parents, just over 800m away, that I would go as hard as I could. Looking back I don't think at any point in the last 3 miles did I doubt I could do it and my splits below show that my finish was the quickest.
My intervals and tempos were much quicker this year - around 20 seconds a mile - but I ran my longer runs slower than the last campaign.
All of these things are an experiment of one, but perhaps if I ran another marathon I should try that tack.
I know Steve has always said how important it is to run more MP miles during longer runs. However this year I was deliberately going for more time on my feet to help endurance.
Does anyone keep a log of this stuff? It may account for the wildly different HM to marathon times.
And as for stiffness or wall issue... I am honestly not sure. The legs just didn't want to start again once I had stopped.
Rob - All of my runs are logged on Fetcheveryone. Personally I find it easier to look back on past training than Garmin Connect. Each to their own though. I think that as you have said your legs wouldn't go again once you had stopped indicates that you hadn't hit the wall. I sprinted over the finish line, but once I had stopped I wouldn't have been able to jog to the baggage truck.
As I indicated in training, this year I chose runs that I enjoy instead of feeling like I had to do them. The only runs I didn't want to do were the long slow runs, but I knew I had to do a couple of these. The rest of my long runs were progressive in some shape or form. Either with MP miles or 10m at MP+20% & 10m at MP+10% as an example.
I also put in three cutback week this year which I felt helped to keep me fresh. You will have learned alot about yourself on Sunday and it would be a shame if you didn't have another crack at it. Look what would have happened to KR if he hadn't had another go this year?
Rob - i have done 8 marathons over the last 5 years and have only managed to run one of them all the way - that's the challenge of the distance - i keep going cos i know that as i make improvement changes i will get there to a point where i really feel that i have run it properly in a time befitting my ability (based on my HM times) then, and only then, will i be happy that i have done myself justice - i'm 59 years old and you look a lot younger so i reckon you have a lot more energy to keep going and have another crack - call it stubbornness or commitment or determination or a bit of all three but it's what's needed.
As everyone has urged on this thread - don't give up and give it another crack!
Even on the champs start I got held up early on. I also got barged about by the men from the front of the blue mass start who apparently don't have the manners to say excuse me or even do that pointy arm thing where you indicate you want to come through. One in particular got a piece of my mind for that.
KR - Edinburgh always an option for you for a Spring mara. It's a cracking course if the weather behaves and hopefully the chaos at the finish from last year will be sorted this time
Rob- like Purple M I have reduced mileage this campaign and managed to stay injury free. it remains to be seen what happens on race day but from training runs so far seems to be suiting me. It does seem to take several marathons to have a notion as to whatto do fuel/pacing/hydration wise etc on the day. Let alone working out what type of training suits you as an individual. I've a feeling you'll be back for more !!
Bought some beetroot juice today. I'm chilling it and yet to sample its' delights ! It sure is purple
Top tip (stolen from Speedy, I think) for the beet juice: hold your nose and have a glass of something nice to chase it with.
I did a week of it recently and hated it. The last of the 6 days was on the day of my long-hard run; in hindsight, I'll take the last dose the day before raceday. (Not because of any awfulness... just a bit of *possibly* related gastric rumblings.)
Long report over on the 3.15 thread. Even longer report blogged on Fetch.
However, having Martin offering to pace me seems like a great idea, might even "purple up" and chase a fairy!? Brilliant split times and average pacing. I think not having the pressure of a time goal from the start and running routes you enjoyed looks like it has paid off.
Oscar, 59 and still running and training for marathons - awesome! I think when you do feel happy with how you have run a marathon you'll be chomping at the bit to go out there and do it again!
I'll have to google Rotterdam Speedy, and get some beet shots! Not on getting barged by other runners, especially that near the front on the champs start.
There's a guy in our club Fraser doing Edinburgh, so will pick his brains to get his opinion too- so many to choose from! Agree with what you said about having a few maras under your belt to know about pacing, training, fueling etc. My golden rule is not to stop, as it is sooo difficult to get going. I was the same as you Martin, when I finished in Paris I was literally struggling to walk out of the enclosure.
Enjoy the post beetroot purple lipstick look Fraser. My boys love it when I have drunk some and then chase them trying to kiss them!
Been out for a few runs post Paris, 3 miles Friday, 6.5 miles on Sunday and 7 miles XC tonight with the running Club and feeling good.
Rabbit - If you live in the south, I reckon the MK marathon is going to be a good one. Will be interesting to hear the feedback after this Sunday. I had planned to do it before I got into VLM. The other one for a pb is Abingdon but you'll need to wait till Oct 2013 for that now.
Men - Nice report and good run!
Martin - I was on auto, thinking I'd probably miss pressing the button on some miles... Wasn't a major problem but think I ran a shorter distance than Rob.
Rob - I'm sure you'll be back after a little break. You're already a good runner. You wouldn't have been able to run 23 feeling pretty good if that were not the case! You'll get to the next level with a bit more time and experience. That book I mentioned yesterday 'Myth of talent and power of practice' is definitely worth a read if you really have any serious doubts. You may be interested to know that after my first half I swore that I was never going to do another one, let alone a full. Absolutely hated it (the last 3 miles), but a year later I was back again, enjoyed it and then committed to the full thing. Get yourself down to your new parkrun on a regular basis and into a local running club. I'm sure you'll be knocking spots off your times in a few months.
My legs still sore tonight, although will hopefully be okay in the morning. I am starting to wonder whether I got more out of the legs on Sunday as a consequence of the Beet It. I was much less sore at this stage after my first two events. Btw, the taste of the shots is fine imo and I don't like beetroot! Better value though seems to be 1 litre cartons from Waitrose for £2.99 compared to circa £1.40 for a 7ml shot!
KR - I definitely think that you should take up Martin's offer and run with him at London. I have a feeling that you've now smashed your PB, you'll be quickly heading to sub 3 before long. Do a few of Martin's long, progressive runs together as part of the prep and you'll be quickly moving on to an ever better level. Oh, and the purple fairy costumes are a must...
CHS - your plan of hitting the weekly parkruns and joining the running club is exactly right. I think that's what I need to do next.
I really appreciate everybody's comments about having another go. Thanks Martin, Oscarr and Fraser. I definitely won't run the marathon next year. I'd like to focus on improving my speed, which I think needs some work, and focusing on runs that I enjoy. But I have decided, after hearing your comments and talking it through with family, that I might give it another crack in a couple of years.
Oscarr - I hate to mention age but you are doing very well for a 59 year old. Keep it going.
Rob - An idea I gave to a couple of women at our club last night that want to do it again but not next year.....apply in the ballot this year, then you can defer it to 2014 and you know that you have a long-term target. If you miss out on a ballot place this year then you can apply again next year for 2014 anyway. Double the chance of getting in (and you may change your mind if you have a storming summer).
KR - I could also get you some wings and a tutu if you want? Much more fun!!!
7cl is the equivelent of 70ml and they reccommend taking it 1 - 2 hours before exercise.
Martin, I think maybe dressing as a beetroot might be more appropiate! Although some kind of fairy accessories might be a good idea too, sounds like you have a supplier for all your fairy need. Do fairies hang out in pairs?
That's the spirit Rob! Good to hear and well done!
KR - Not sure what you mean? Do you mean that 70ml (7cl) of ordinary carton juice is the eqivelant of a 7ml shot?
KR let me know if you want to go through any training plans for summer and beyond.
superb pacing RH - my 5ks of 20:27, 20:53, 21:06, 21:19, 21:10, 21:17, 21:33, 21:41 looks poor in comparison.
My legs still smashed - possibly worse ever - I think I didn't drink enough in last 10k or post race due to lost bag problem - made little difference to my performance but recovery worse.
re Chris F has better record than me in many ways as she has always been sub 3 in all 32 London Marathons I have gone over a few times - I think I was ahead of him in London from 2005 to 2010 but he has easily beaten me last 2 years and more times than not.
I started my sub-3 streak before him though he did do a sub-3 in the late 70s. Of the GB runners who are in the 5 decades of sub 3s I now have the longest span between the sub 3s.
There must have been about 20 or more older runners ahead of me at London though and thus presume they must have either started later or haven't been running marathons consistently through the last 35 years.
My record of consistency in 5 year age groups will undoubtedly take a big nosedive next year
U20 (76-77): 2:41:35 (Barnsley)
20-24: 2:29:42 (London)
25-29: 2:35:02 (London)
30-34: 2:38:15 (London)
35-39: 2:44:21 (London)
40-44: 2:42:10 (Austin)
45-49: 2:43:53 (London)
50-54: 2:43:40 (London)
KR - Not sure what a group of fairies is called...answers on a postcard. I think that my whole outfit cost less than £20 (and that includes a replacement wand as I broke the first one shouting at a cyclist).
Steve - They are some mightily impressive results. 35 years of sub-3 marathons is brilliant. I just hope that you can keep it going to 40 years!!!!
My legs are also still shredded. Pleased in a way as it shows that I gave it my all. I'm going to try a little plod tomorrow lunchtime as I've been asked to run in a County relay race on Sunday (although luckily not for the first team)!!!