Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Colin



  • Thanks Steve, look forward to meeting you tomorrow (or is that today now? image).

    Hi Andy, I followed your thread last time too and you did well. Brighton is a good course and I believe the organisers have just made it a bit more flatter to try and attract more elite athletes. I think they have taken out one of the earlier hills around the city centre. That makes it sound like a hilly affair but it's not. There a few climbs but not too bad and once you get to 10 miles it's downhill and flat the rest of the way. I'd got a place for Brighton in 2012 too, so will have to see if I can defer to 2013.

    Just finished wrapping my wifes' birthday presents so it's off to bed now.

  • Steve Marathon Coach wrote (see)
    Congratulations KR

    Steve MC, nice to see you again, you have one of the widest po10 entries I have ever seen due to a marathon career that spanes back to 1976! I did my first in 1985 but I have major gaps (19 years) in it. if any deserves your nickname, marathon coach, it is you.

    Are you planning another marathon this year and if so which?

  • Hi AIWfC etc!

    Power of ten has a fair proportion of my races but still missing 700 odd!
    Probably doing London but not that fit but still hope to be close to 3
  • *Makes secret plan to follow Steve around VLM*
  • Knight Rider, I hope the weekend is going well and you have got a good idea of what the team have got lined up for you between now and 15th April.
    It would be interesting to see you full marathon history as your short distance times suggest that a 3:15 time is well within your reach, but as you know it all depends on the day, so interesting to see what happened on your previous outings.

    I am not using p& d for my training schedule, I had always used the RW ones but never managed to hit the race day target (struggled at 20 miles), also tried a modified Firman and dabbled in P & D but they did not get me where I hoped to be either so I am under Moraghan`s wing now, and very pleased indeed with how that is progresssing.

    Hi Steve Marathon Coach,
    I very much enjoyed all you did last year for the super six and for all us others who exploited your knowledge as much as we could. Looking forward to following again and I am sure this will be a positive thread to follow over the next 4 months.

  • Hi KR, echoing Shaggy's enquiry I think it would be good to see you go through your marathons in a bit more detail with regards mileage beforehand, races in the buildup, number of long runs, paces, etc.
    I remember you going into Brighton in April this year brimming with confidence but not getting the right result that your training suggested. Basically I am trying to see if your marathon results to date are a product of your training or something that's going wrong on the day with nutrition perhaps? Hasn't cramps affected you at the wrong time?
    Anyone capable of doing a 5k at 6m00s pace should be shattering the 3-15 barrier!

    Hope the day in London went well.
  • Had a great and overwhelming day in London and were very well looked after. It was an early start and train journey down to London to meet the team and Rosie, Emma, Lee and Craig.

    We started off with a 3d foot scan which does exactly wht it says and not only measures the foot length, but also width depth, heel  & toe angles etc and scans a footprint of your feet. This suggested I was a neutral runner and It was the on the treadmill next for a gait analysis and tried out a few pairs of shoes. Went for the Nimbus in the end and they felt comforatable. After picking out a bit of kitit was off to the Bupa centre for for a Medical check. Everything was checked, weight, height, blood pressure and lung capacity. Then I was rigged up with an ECG, face mask and blood pressuer strap and on the treadmill. Starte off at a brisk walk for 2 minutes (2.5 miles an hour), then the pace was upped to a light jog for another 2 minutes (3.7 mph), then upped again to a good pace (5mph), then 6.2mph and finally 7.5mph. All the time the heart rate and lung capacity were being measured and blood pressure measured and 2 mnute intervals. The test was over when I'd reached 85% heart rate. Results showed I have a VO2 max of 51.9 which ain't too bad. There were also lots of  graphs showing heart rate, blood pressure and lung capaicty over the test and how each time the pace was increased the heart apated and then leveled out. All very interesting statistics. I also met Steve and went through the schedule I'll be following, so I'll be posting what I'm doing for the week on a Monday. Then it was a dash back on the train and out for a meal with my wife & friends to celebrate her birthday.

    Just going out for a LSR now to pick up the car, so wil post some more details later regarding my previous marathon training and races.

  • Hey Colin, we met at BC - I will be following your thread but will have to adapt things to my pace - I am trying to go under 4 hrs and there is no-one in the team who fits my times so will make adjustments to your schedule etc.  Will also follow Rosie and do the same. (my 10k PB of 47min and Half of 1:45 suggest I can do this but can't get under 4:10 after 8 attempts so must be doing something wrong in training)

    I would be really interested, as a first point, to know what Steve has given you re pace for your long runs ?  MP plus ..?

    Glad you had a great day yesterday - you must have felt like a pro.

  • Oscarr- I'm also a sub-4 target marathoner- I've managed it at Lochaber twice, but only by a minute or 2. All my others have been in the range 4:12- 4:25 .Your 10k and half times are similar to mine.

    Ive tried -Hal Higdon- which broke my knees- so switched to Firman 3 days per week ( OK, as at the time anything more frequent would result in injuries- but all the runs are horribly hard, and you run out of steam at 18 miles)

    P&D- sorry  I just don't have enough time/ energy in my life for all that mileage! I was exhausted by about 8 weeks before the race, and the last few weeks had very little trainig

    Now trying HADD base training until 8 weeks before , and will go for a short "sharpening" training plan to get some speed into my legs- I always lack endurance, but want to go off too fast in the race.

    I wish I knew the answer.........................

  • Sounds like an excellent day yesterday KR.  It's always good to find out that you are fit and healthy, especially with the amount of training you are going to push your body through over the next four months.

    Looking forward to seeing what Steve has in store for you over the next few weeks. 

    Tricialitt - I followed P&D 55-70mpw schedule last year but cut down on the overall mileage knowing my body wouldn't handle it.   I maxed out at 59m with an average of 51mpw. I shortened most runs but added in extra 20m runs to ensure extra endurance.  I'm cobbling together my own schedule this year from past experience.

  • Hi Shaggy & MM, bit of my marathon history. First marathon was VLM in 2010 and I followed the RW sub 3.15 schedule. This seemed to work and got 3.22.10 (which is still my PB). As it was London the start was crazy and very crowded to the point where it was stop start. I think my first mile was 9.30 and the folowing 2 were aroun 8 - 8.30. Fmailiar story of running on pavement to dodge slower runners. It took me till 6 miles to get down to 7.30 pace. From then on I felt fine. Although I didn't hit the wall, I felt exhausted from about mile 22 and managed to hang on to the end.

    Next up was Brighton earlier this year in April. I had a great build up and used the RW sub 3.15 schedule again but did more longer midweek runs up to 12/13 miles and was regularly doing 50 miles per week and got 5 x 20 mile runs in the process. Brighton was unseasonally hot this year and I think there were a combination of things which led to me getting cramp. Although I was drinking water and taking in gels I didn't take any of the supplied sports drinks in the race. In the days before I don't think I had taken on enough carbs and this is a bit of a grey area for me, knowing specifically what but also how much and how often. In the race itself I knew Gobi was pace making @ 3.10 pace. I started a bit behind and managed to tag onto his group by mile 2. The pace felt fine and I stuck with them till mile 10 when I did a mental calculation, which suggested I was going to fast and I dropped off their group and tried to slow my pace. I went through halfway i just over 1.34 and felt okay. My mile 18 I could feel twinges in my calves and it was downhill from then having to stop every so often to stretch. Slowing my pace down to about 8mm did seem to work a bit but then the cramps would come back. To be honnest I think the damage had been done from the earlier miles.

  • Chester in October was my 3rd marathon. Again, I used the same kind of schedule although this time I managed to get 6 x 20 mile runs in and was still doing the longer mid week runs. I carb loaded for 2 days  before the race(again not knowing eactly what I should be eating and the quantity needed) and had 2 sports drinks the day before too. In the rcae itself I started off more steady and was knocking out the miles at an average 7.20 pace. I took a sports drink @ 12 miles - very sweet (Sainsbury's own brand provided by the organisers) and managed to drink it over the course of 2 miles. I went through halfway in 1.36.xx and knew I was on for a good time. When I got to mile 16 I could feel some twinges again in my calves. It wasn't long after that the cramp set in and a familiar case of stopping & stretching. I think when the cramp had come back I felt defeated having gone through it before and finished in 3.36.xx.

    On reflection I didn't have any massages whilst training, so basically I did 2 x back to back marathon campaigns without the use of massage. Post Chester I had a massage and couldn't believe the difference it made. So this time I will be having regular massages so there isn't a build up of tension. Another thing I am going to be building into my training, is more regular strecthing. I normally only stretch “a bit” after a run but that is it. Another element will be doing core exercises which will help my running posture.

  • oscarr wrote (see)

    I would be really interested, as a first point, to know what Steve has given you re pace for your long runs ?  MP plus ..?

    Glad you had a great day yesterday - you must have felt like a pro.

    Hi Oscar, will hopefully be getting my schdule through soon, but it is basically the RW sub 3.15 schedule with maybe a few tweaks. As far as pace for long runs is concerned, a general rulle of thought is MP +60 seconds, but this dpeends on whether you know what your marathon pace actually is. WIll keep you posted on what pace I'll be doing them.

    Ended up doing a shorter run than planned 7 mile run this morning (av pace 7.23) picking up the car form the night before which takes me up to 31 miles for the week from 4 runs.

  • KR - sounds like you had a great time on Saturday - 3D foot scan sounds cool and you're probably still taking in all those stats. Looking forward to seeing your schedule for the week.
  • Thanks for that KR. I knew that your training had find well in terms of mileage with enough long runs, enough mid week long runs, etc. It's the issue of cramp and fuelling that you look like you need to address. When I did this two years ago I booked in sports massage every 2 weeks and I kept on top of niggles and the like. Because I never suffered with cramp it never occurred to me it was because I'd taken a proactive approach to it.
    I don't think your schedule that you're following will give you any problems especially if you've essentially followed it three times already and will be using it again this time round
  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Sounds like you had a gread day KR. 

    I'm intrested to know about the cramp and what pointers you've been (or will be) given over that.  I'm pretty sure whenever I've suffered its been down to just going too hard in the earlier miles (never had it on a marathon - always shorter distances) but it's interesting to see if there maybe other factors. 

  • I'm envious of your day in London KR, and I bet a few of stats geeks over on the 3.15 thread are hoping for a run down of those figures!

    Are you taking a break before you start your schedule? My break came early due to lurgy (9 days and no running, not that I'm counting image )
  • Tricialitt - thanks, its comforting to know that you have gone under 4 hrs with similar shorter distance times as mine.  I am going to put a lot of effort into designing my schedule for my next marathon and will tweak it in a similar way that Martin HHH is going to do.

    I followed the RW Ultimate 3:45 schedule for my first few marathons (done 8 now) then tweaked it into my own following the basic principles and adding runs I enjoy doing like Yasso 800's. 

    I've read a lot of the recent forum feedback about doing hard long runs in training and this, plus reflections of what has gone wrong in the past, has led me to the conclusion that my efforts to improve have worked against me and I have been starting my marathon races exhausted from doing too much in training.  It's not the mileage that's been the problem (peak at 50) but intensity - for example I did some of my 20 mile runs at MP and did a lot of speedwork midweek at flat out pace.

    So, my target for this time is keep the mileage up but make sure the pace of all runs (from speedwork to LSRs) is right i.e. slower than before.

    KR - thanks for the feedback re pace for LSRs - 60 secs slower than MP will be a challenge for me but is somehting I will certainly do.  4hr target means 9m MP and 10m LSR pace - "..simple!.."  Look forward to seeing your schedule.  Bet you're still on cloud nine?

  • oscarr wrote (see)
    KR - thanks for the feedback re pace for LSRs - 60 secs slower than MP will be a challenge for me but is somehting I will certainly do.  4hr target means 9m MP and 10m LSR pace - "..simple!.."  Look forward to seeing your schedule.  Bet you're still on cloud nine?
    The +60 is a loose thing. P&D say long runs should start out at +20% and move up to +10%.  If MP is 9 m/m, then you should be between MP +54 and +108 seconds.
  • Minni, I think pace could be an issue and controlling it more at the beginning and thinking about it, what is the best warm up to do before a marathon? There are many schedules for the 16 weeks of training, but what about just before the race, what kind of warm up is best so that you get the muscles ready for the impending race? What sort of warm up do people do?

    Speedy, not necessairly taking a break at the moment, although last week was just 31 miles and I think this week will probably be something similar. I'll basically be following the RW sub 3.15 schedule, with a few tweaks to it. Due to start on boxing day - 1 week today. I'll be getting a report in the post in the next few days from BUPA with a more indepth findings, so I'll be able to get some stats for the Geeks (me included!).

    Oscarr, I'm pretty sure 20 mile runs done at MP would be too much in training given the amount of recovery your body would need afterwards.

  • The warm up before VLM usually consists of standing in a queue for the portaloos for ages, repeat, stand in squished corner of pen. I imagine Paris will be much the same. You have to treat the first mile or so as your warm up.

    Do give yourself a couple of days off before you start, won't you. Better now than in a few weeks because you burnt out.

    I ran today. All of 2.3 miles. Woo. I was full of coughs and nose-blows afterwards but seems to have settled again now. Just getting things moving I suppose. I'm in no rush other than that I'm going a bit stir crazy.
  • Never warmed up before a marathon and I'd echo what Speedy says about using the first mile as a gentle introduction. Even taking 3 miles to get up to speed isfine. Better to start slow and finish strong than set off like a rocket with enthusiasm and burn your matches by the 5km marker
  • Congratulations on being selected.

    Is it scary knowing that people will be following you for the next few months on this thread or will it spur you on even more to hit your targets?

    Look forward to seeing your schedule and how it will be tweaked.

    Good luck

  • Matchstick Man wrote (see)
    Never warmed up before a marathon and I'd echo what Speedy says about using the first mile as a gentle introduction. Even taking 3 miles to get up to speed isfine. Better to start slow and finish strong than set off like a rocket with enthusiasm and burn your matches by the 5km marker
    Keir (who may be masquerading as We 3 Keir's of Orient are...) seemed to do it pretty well at Abingdon: I can't recall his exact tactics but I recall his first 5k was the slowest of the race.

    I'll wave the geek flag as well, numbers are wonderful.
  • All I want for Christmas is my two fifty marathon wrote (see)
    oscarr wrote (see)
    KR - thanks for the feedback re pace for LSRs - 60 secs slower than MP will be a challenge for me but is somehting I will certainly do.  4hr target means 9m MP and 10m LSR pace - "..simple!.."  Look forward to seeing your schedule.  Bet you're still on cloud nine?
    The +60 is a loose thing. P&D say long runs should start out at +20% and move up to +10%.  If MP is 9 m/m, then you should be between MP +54 and +108 seconds.

    Thanks 2:50.  Wow, +20% is even slower than I think I could be comfortable with but will give it a try.  +10% is fine.  Have certainly come to the conclusion from all the feedback that I really do have to slow down my pace in training.  Thinking about the following as a base plan;

    1.  LSR - as above, MP+20% building to MP+10% - some done as progressive ones with last few miles at half pace

    2.  Tempo (longish 4 to 8 miles) - half way between MP and half pace

    3.  Mile repeats - 10K pace

    4.  Yasso 800s - 5K pace 

    Any views anyone?

  • Oscarr, why would you finish long runs at HM pace? I would have thought finishing at MP would be more relevant to getting used to running at intended pace on tired legs.
    Obv not on every long run though!

    Tempo is at the pace akin to how far you can run in an hour. For KR that's about 9 and a bit miles, for Mo Farah it would be almost 13miles.

  • My pacing has always been

    • tempo 10mile pace
    • LT reps - 10km pace
    • VO2Max reps - 1500m pace
    • Always ran yasso as prescribed i.e. time in minsimageecs the time for marathon in hrs:mins building up to 12

    The best warm-up for the marathon I've found is a nice cuppa, followed by a stroll to the start line

  • MM - great feedback, thanks - the idea behind HM pace in last few miles of LR is to get used to running on tired legs but maybe finishing at MP is more sensible.  Certainly plan to mix up LR pace with some at no  faster than MP+10% and some with a few miles at MP at end.
  • KR - do you do your LSRs at same time of day as mara races ? Are you practising mini carb loads the night before and experimenting with fuelling strategies morning of LSRs ? Have you tried long runs without fuel or with fuel at different intervals ???? Just some thoughts

    Sounds like you had a cracking time getting a-poked and a-prodded and having various bits of yourself measured in Londonium

    Keir did indeed do his slowest 5k at Abo over the first 3 miles thanks to me holding him back. I'll take all the credit personally for slowing him down and meaning he had such a good race overall image. Nothing to do with his months of hard training or anything !

    Agree you don't need any warm up for a marathon apart from a few toilet visits and thorough evacuation

  • Choisty, can you clarify what you mean by LT reps and VO2 Max reps? I tend to do mile reps slightly faster than 5k pace - I'd guess about 3k pace although I've never actually raced that distance. The other reps we do are about 0.6 miles (can't remember my pace for these - it's been a while since I did that session), or 1.8 miles (about 5k pace). I've often wondered if I'm doing them too fast, but it seems to work for me.
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