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Hi Rosie, apologies for absence yesterday - my laptop battery died so no catching up with forum chat on the train home
I'm not going to go over the whole '9 mile run instead of 4 mile run' thing - enough people on here have already told you off and stressed the importance of sticking to a schedule.
But here's a cliche to bear in mind and like all the best cliches, it's TRUE!
If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.
You entered the comp because you've never managed to break 3.30 in a marathon with your method of training, and said you really wanted to. So sticking to that method of training AIN'T GONNA WORK! You need to do something different, and that's what I'm here to try to get you to do.
But on another note, I am seriously concerned about your diet. It is wholly inadequate for anyone trying to live a heatlhy lifestyle, let alone someone trying to train for a sub 3.30 marathon! You get virtually no protein, no low GI or wholesome carbohydrates (all sugars) and very little fat. Are you vegetarian? What about eggs? Fish? Also barely any fruit and zero veg. I'm surprised you haven't got scurvy! Ruth, help!!
Easy quick suggestions: Chiller cabinet soups with lots of veg (eg Covent Garden soups like winter veg, or ones with beans in too)Ready made filled pasta with tomato based sauce and a bag of ready to eat veg like shredded spring greens or spinachBaked beans and cheese on wholegrain/multigrain/rye toast. Add marmite for extra B vitamins...Smoothie made with ripe banana, milk and maybe something like blueberries.Pitta bread filled with ready prepared salad, falafel and houmous.
Also, porridge instead of cereal sometimes. Vary your fruits more.
Oh dear. I feel like I'm always telling you off. I really, really want you to succeed. And when you have, I think you have a great future ahead of you in ultra running! Hope the speed session went OK by the way.
Sound like good advice all round. Rosie wants to break 3.30 and needs to listen to the team of experts on-hand and take their advice. You need to fuel the body in order to get the best out of it !
Rosie, I really hope that food wise you are having a better week and on your longer runs you feel stronger for it.
Still waiting on Ruths advice of diet ?
Thanks Sam and FH.
Don't worry about telling me off - I'm quite able to take it, and as the diet generally, and training concentration lapse on Sunday show, I do need a bit of a kick every now and then. As you say I was on a plateau for a reason, I need to do things differently. I've had a word with my brain about it and believe the message has just about got through now..
These suggestions for better food are really helpful, thanks. I know it sounds strange but relying on TPN/PEG for such a long time when I was little I did just get out of the habit of meals and knowing what a sensible diet was, I'm not motivated by food, or good at knowing when I'm hungry, I make an effort not to lose weight these days, and so don't, but tend to remember about food late in the day, and that, combined with a very lazy streak, lead to the sorts of crimes against nutrition I got up to in the food diary.
Yesterday was a much better day nutritionally though! Inspired by having to report on here I took up SleepyBear's idea of seeds/fruit/nuts, and, there was free lunch at work, and then made serious effort to cook dinner after the gym session yesterday evening. This turned into a late night cooking and freezing extravaganza and I now have 3 days of stuff frozen if I need it. I just need to keep focussed now.. I'm going with pitta and salad and lentil/tomato soup for lunch, and have filled my fridge with sensible/easy things to try to reduce the temptation of just liquid calories so hopefully that will mitigate some of the effect of the laziness. Point taken about the fruit and veg, Sam, have stocked up so now I just need to remember to use them. Have decided to carry on with the food diary for a bit to try to discipline myself about it a bit more..
Session yesterday was fun!
6M of 1M jog, then 6 x 800m (or 3:30) fast, with 2-min (200m) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
I didn't manage to make it to the track sadly as by the time had finished work it was stupidly late so ended up at the gym again. Made pacing easier, but hoping I will make it to the track soon as need to get used to pacing myself not replying on the treadmill to do it for me I think..
74mins (8M) slow today. Really looking forward to it as it's been a bit of a crazy week and I love the time out of long slow runs. Looks like it'll be this evening before I get some free time to go though, on call today..
Here to all the words of wisdom above. Just tucking into a jacket spud and beans yum........Sams advice I am listening to as I was on the old plateau, not varying the sessions is my problem and not running slow enough on Sundays so I will listen on that score if you listen on the food front Rosie? Sounds like you are. I take loads of stuff in on a Monday and go to the Bakewell market early monday and buy fruit and a few spuds, tins of mackrel, sardines etc for the week. Then each day I have something and know even if I am running to work as i do I have food available, no matter how busy if I cant get out of the office.
Enjoy the run. I am running tonight.
Top banana Rosie, no bun intended, sorry PUN !!
mcs wrote (see)
Meant to ask Sam if I had never run a marathon before what time would you say I should be training for? 48 mins 10K in training. 1.49 half marathon, running about 25-35 miles a week but suspect to hamstring injuries so never got on with speed work as nervous of pulls???? Being realistic which you aren't always about yourself or should I forget time target and just train? Thanks in advance.
I'd estimate somewhere around 3.50 on those times. Speed work per se - as in, 800s and 400s is not essential to marathon training. But I'd say mile reps and threshold (tempo) pace definitely are. Hopefully you can do these OK. Your guideline mile rep (or long interval) pace would be 7.55-8.10.
Maybe just do some strides in terms of pacier stuff and start conservatively...
Rosie - well done on raising your game on the nutritional stakes - that's so good to hear! We're all like clucking hens worrying about your diet/health! I hope and suspect you'll feel better after a few days of good eating and your running will fly
Rosie A wrote (see)
RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)RosieWhat about giving me a few examples of what you eat/drink for breakfast?Hi Ruth. Sorry I didn’t get your email, but have decided to be brave and just post the horror that was my food diary . No laughing people. Or not where I can hear you anyway.. Day 1:2am (had neglected dinner the day before): cereal, banana, milk (approx. 400kcal), recovery drink (approx. 350kcal)11pm: recovery drink, banana, appleAlso during the day: 1 x sports drink 500ml, approx 1litre apple juice, 500ml orange juiceDay 2:5am: cereal, milk, banana, apple juice 1pm: sports drink8pm: sports drink11pm: recovery drink, soup, toastAlso during the day: orange juice approx 1litreDay 3: 6am: cereal, milk, banana9pm: bagel, banana, apple, recovery drink11pm: apple juice, cereal, milkAlso during the day: sports drink x 1!
RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)
RosieWhat about giving me a few examples of what you eat/drink for breakfast?
What about giving me a few examples of what you eat/drink for breakfast?
Sorry I didn’t get your email, but have decided to be brave and just post the horror that was my food diary . No laughing people. Or not where I can hear you anyway..
2am (had neglected dinner the day before): cereal, banana, milk (approx. 400kcal), recovery drink (approx. 350kcal)
11pm: recovery drink, banana, apple
Also during the day: 1 x sports drink 500ml, approx 1litre apple juice, 500ml orange juice
5am: cereal, milk, banana, apple juice
1pm: sports drink
8pm: sports drink
11pm: recovery drink, soup, toast
Also during the day: orange juice approx 1litre
6am: cereal, milk, banana
9pm: bagel, banana, apple, recovery drink
11pm: apple juice, cereal, milk
Also during the day: sports drink x 1
You have to want to change? You are really low in serveral nutrients and I think if you want to continue running you really need to change your dietary habits as you likely heading for problems perhaps in immunity/fatigue issues but also bone health (or in shorter term injury). I suggest I set you some targets and take on board what Sam has already mentioned.
Breakfast: cereal and milk every morning plus a piece of fruit. Suggest a fortified wholegrain cereal with vitamins and minerals (you need this boost of vitamins and minerals ) and the milk - you really need the calcium. I would also suggest a vitamin D supplement (suggest 400IU/10mg dose daily. well known high street chemist will be able to help). Plus 150ml glass of orange juice (this will help absorption of iron from fortified cereal).
Mid-morning - small fruit & yoghurt or at least one or the other). No fruit juice, no sports drinks.
Lunch: bagel/pitta bread/otehr bread with lean meat/ fish filling/ cottage cheess/ hummus or soup and bread. No sports drink or fruit juice. Water if need drink.
Mid-afternoon - if running before dinner 1-2 pieces of toast or if out and about a cereal bar & banana or if prefer a drink then a small low fat drinking yoghurt or low fat milkshake .
Dinner: pick a carb as a base (potato/sweet potato/ rice/pasta/bread) then add some veg and some protein (lentils, legumes/beans, meat, fish, nuts, cheese) this does not need to be large. It could be a jacket potato with beans or tuna or cottage cheese with some salad or veg soup (shop brought is fine) with thick bread or even beans on toast! Just have something for now, that is you aim.
What a pair we are Rosie - I am either eating or thinking about eating and you are the reverse!
Poor Ruth is encouraging me to eat less and you to eat more! Good luck with it all lovey - its taken years to develop these ways of eating (or not eating) so its going to take time to develpp new habbits and get them to stick. Baby steps, with breakkie and a snack each day - wish I could gove you some of my appetite!
msc: Your example carb loading day is below. I have worked this out without using my computer based food programmes. Instead I have used food labelling to show that anyone can do this! I have put grams (g) of carbs of each food in brackets. Some people will find this interesting others will just want to run!
Hi just been catching up on the posts.
I am training for Paris too, it will be my second marathon having done Berlin in September. My plan for it was just to get around whereas this time I would like a sub 3.45??? maybe too ambitious!!
Interested to read about the nutrition. I also struggle with my eating. My normal day involves a lot of black coffee, cucumber celery, carrots, lettuce with next to no protein and once or twice a week a gluten/wheat/dairy free( I have mega allergies and food intolerences) roll toasted with peanut butter................. constantly getting nagged by everyone!!!
Is it possible to run your LSR to slow???
Wow, thanks Ruth, that's really helpful. The juice/sport drinks as meals cold turkey has commenced! It's going ok so far. Good point about the vitamin D. I did have osteoporosis as a kid (steroid induced, largely), but running increased my hip and spine scores and haven't needed a DEXA for ages so I really should know better than to let poor nutrition kick that off again. Bought some vitamin D while waiting at the station this morning - embarassingly easy and did wonder why I hadn't got my head around that before.
So, to target 1. Have set an alarm on my phone the last few days to remind me about breakfast, which makes me feel a little silly if I think about it too hard, but not as silly as not doing it on balance I guess. Seems to be working though. I live less than a mile from 3 different supermarkets which are open until midnight (making my excuses for not having decent food available very feeble) so last night after running went and now have bread, cereal bars, bananas and selection of fruit, low fat milkshakes and yogurt and am going to incorporate the snack thing from today too. I shall report..
Thanks for the encouragement everyone!
Sounds like a deal, mcs
Fraser - there is a track at Saughton?? Wow, I really do need to get out more! I work in the Gorgie area once a week so have zero excuse for not knowing about that. Home is nearer to Meadowbank (and didn't know about Saughton) so was thinking of going there. Have you tried either?
Thanks Emma. Good luck with yours too. You're right about setting small targets - something I am good at forgetting..
Hi kaz, how did you find Berlin? Difficult to say how ambitious 3:45 is without knowing how much you are running and what sort of times you are doing I guess. What was your time for Berlin? As someone with a terrible diet even I don't know how you're running on your intake though. (Sorry, I don't want to join the naggers!). I guess as Ruth says if you know it's a problem it's about knowing whether you want to change. I know from my own random habits and from friends and family who have had very severe eating disorders that eating behaviour can be very entrenched and complicated and extremely resistant to external pressure and nagging, and it needs to be you who decides to change things. It sounds like change could be really good for your running though with a diet like that. That works as a motivator for me. Good luck!
SamMurphyRuns wrote (see)
mcs wrote (see)Meant to ask Sam if I had never run a marathon before what time would you say I should be training for? 48 mins 10K in training. 1.49 half marathon, running about 25-35 miles a week but suspect to hamstring injuries so never got on with speed work as nervous of pulls???? Being realistic which you aren't always about yourself or should I forget time target and just train? Thanks in advance.I'd estimate somewhere around 3.50 on those times. Speed work per se - as in, 800s and 400s is not essential to marathon training. But I'd say mile reps and threshold (tempo) pace definitely are. Hopefully you can do these OK. Your guideline mile rep (or long interval) pace would be 7.55-8.10.Maybe just do some strides in terms of pacier stuff and start conservatively...
Maybe just do some strides in terms of pacier stuff and start conservatively...
Well done Rosie - every step towards a better diet no matter how small is a step in the right direction! If you slip it doesn't mean you have failed - just reset and start again. The benefits will start to kick in and show in your training and mood very soon. Then the steps will become easier and you will be able to make them bigger. Over time some of the good habbits will become as entrenched as the old bad ones. Big hugs for getting this far!
Kaz - Like Rosie I have no idea how you are surviving! Well done for Berlin - hope you can crack the nutrition and smash your target!
Your body is like a machine it needs the best fuel - you can't run a sports car on poor quality petrol!
I had chopped fruit, yoghurt, honey , sultanas and seeds for beakfast - very healthy but my stomach thinks my throat's been cut I'm so hungry!
Hi Rosie ,
I know running is the one thing that makes me make some effort to eat, but I do tend to forget when busy and even cook for everyone else without having myself. Trying to get a grip of it............ homemade gluten/dairy/egg etc free pancakes for breakfast this morning with syrup.
Berlin was ok- very very hot for me, the highest temp I normally run in is about 14( I stay very far north!!) so high 20's did complicate things a bit. Standing at the start I made a concious decision that my goal was going to finish, and not to push in the heat.......... so I treated it basically like a LSR and finished with a 4:09:34 which I thought was ok considering........... So onwards and hopefully faster!!! I am following a training plan this time which I didn't do last time, all I did was run what I felt like at whatever pace was comfortable at the time( no speedwork or nothing). And I am glad to say I am noticing good improvements in both speed and endurance. I just wonder, if sometimes ,I am not pushing myself hard enough i.e are my LSR's to slowly paced?? I am trying to go by HR on the LSR and stay within 60-70%.............. all seems very complicated!!!!
Good Luck with the new eating regime!!
Rosie - well done for starting to take on board Ruth's advice. With your history I think it is going to take a while for this to become second nature for you which must be your long term objective. Let me share a little story - I had problems with my gums early last year and had to see a specialist gum person (periodontist I think!) who told me, amongst other things, that I had to use Tepe inter-dental brushes twice a day involving 4 different sizes - at the start this was OK for the first 2 days since it was a new experience but because it took about 30 mins to do my teeth it soon became a real chore and I nearly gave up - but, because I was determined to fix my gums I persevered and now it takes only 5 mins and is so much part of my daily routine that I feel uncomfortable if I don't do it properly - the gums are great now !!
The message I'm trying to give, Rosie, is that I recognise it won't be easy for you but with concentrated effort over time a healthy diet can become part of your normal daily routine
msc: Your example carb loading day is below. I have worked this out without using my computer based food programmes. Instead I have used food labelling to show that anyone can do this! I have put grams (g) of carbs of each food in brackets. Some people will find this interesting others will just want to run! Breakfast: 60g of porridge (36g of carbs) plus large spoonful of honey (15g carbs) and 28g of dried fruit (large handful = 20g carbs) plus 200ml of semi skimmed milk in porridge (10g), plus 200ml of fruit juice (22g) and 2 slices of toast with generous spread of jam (50g): Total carbs at breakfast= 153g Mid- morning or grazing all morning: 500ml low fat milkshake (40-50g) with banana/honey sandwich (50g). Total carbs= 100g Lunch: Medium baked potato/250g (43g) with 1/2 tin beans (30g) & pot of low fat yoghurt (16g) and 250ml of fruit juice (27g) and 3 jaffa cakes (23g). Total carbs= 139gMid- afternoon: 2 x malt loaf (40g) & 4 jaffa cakes (31g). Total carbs = 71g 1000ml/1litre of high juice over day = 104g of carbsDinner: 100g of pasta with tomato based sauce (80g) plus half can of tinned fruit (23g) & 1/2 can of rice pudding (35g). Total grams of carbs =138gTotal carbs over day = 705g (approx). If you are super lean you may want to increase this up to the 760g so add a further 750ml high juice or a further 6-7 jaffa cakes or a bowl of supper before bed. You may notice I have not added protein to evening meal, this is not needed as the diet is high enough in protein and you don't need the extra calories nor volume. The idea is you would practise this a couple of times (up to 2 days) before a 1/2 to see how it all feels and then do this up to three days before actual race. Does this help, if there is anything not clear please ask!
Hi Rosie, good luck with the food intake and breakfast. Not so long ago before running I used to smoke and my breakfast consisted of a cigarette & orange juice - not vey healthy on 2 fronts. It took a bit of time to get used to, but after stopping the cigs and starting running I can't function without breakfast. Although I am no good at eating too early, sometimes it can 1 hour + after I get up before I can face anything.
Your running is going well too - see you next week!
Well - I tried to be healthy today and I shall report for the purpose of making Rosie feel like she has a shiny halo by comparison.
Out I went, into the village to do a few errands and treat myself to lunch in a local coffee shop. "What's the soup today?" I asked intending being good. "Mushroom" was the reply! Given that I haven't eaten a mushroom since I was about six years old, when my sister told me they were cooked slugs, I can't quite bring myself to feel guilty for the cream tea I had instead ROFL.
Oh come on - it was either that or a bacon sandwich! Their lunchtime sandwich menu never inspires me no matter how gorgeous their 'artisan' bread is!
Ok ok - am going out for my run in about 10 minutes - an 'undulating' 4 miler today before I settle down to do some work. One of these days I'm gonna work a normal 9 - 5! Oh no - that's right - that's why I work for myself, so I can work into the evening and run in the daylight LOL (and eat breakfast at a human hour - I'm like knight rider - I have a juice and coffee to start the day - though not the average carton juice - today included 5 small apples, 2 kiwi fruit and half a lemon - no idea how many cals or grams of carbs but yummy and full of nutrients!)
It's all about what works for you as an individual (within reasonable limits) Rosie!
Thanks to all for the responses. I am going to stick to the sub four hour RW schedule come the 6th of February when that kicks in and do extra core strength work and see how I go if the hammies get tight I will drop the mileage alittle.......as for the food excellent guidance, I need to eat abit more prior to races. I am Coeliac but not as bad as Kaz blimey that must be hard. I will have to replace the jaffa cake idea with fruit or nuts perhaps.........good guidance anyway. With several runners in my house we go through a lot of fruit juice already for breakfast, might need to buy some to have in the fridge at work.
Keep at it Rosie.........whats for tea? Fish pie for me............
MCS - Very hard work, which is half the problem with my diet and a lot of the reason I don't bother with food much.........I must admit a few years ago I lost an extreme amount of weight and was very ill, but it is my love of running that turned me around. I can assure you I eat a lot more now than I did then!! Tapping into this thread has given me an even more positive outlook........... I actually had a proper breakfast and lunch today and planning a spinach and mixed bean salad for tea.
Planning a recovery run for this evening..........legs feel very tight and hopefully it will do the trick!!
Busy day out coaching today - and last night - so haven't done any of my own training plan since Monday this week - oops. Happens like that sometimes. As long as I get one quality session and one longer run in I'll be happy.
Rosie, what a vast improvement on the diet front! Well done. Hope the run went OK, too. You'll have some company next week on the long run as we've decided to make it the focus of the training day. Will fill you in on how it will work.
This is obviously an emotive topic given the discourse that has followed and I guess it brings home the link between 'energy in, and energy out' and the fact that for some people, the initial motivator for running is to lose, or control weight. It is a great tool for weight loss/maintenance but there comes a point where you need to ensure you're fuelling yourself up enough and it's not just calories we need but nutrients (hence why Rosie's sports drink addiction didn't go down too well with Ruth!)
We've just got Hugh Whatsit's 'Veg Everyday' book and my husband is working his way through a few of the recipes. We've got some kind of spicy bean stew tonight! We aren't veggies but try to eat non-meat or fish meals a couple of times a week. He's doing kale and mushroom lasagne at the wkd!
Hmm... I should point out that he doesn't usually do all the cooking. He's off work this week, that's all