Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Emma

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  • SOLB wrote (see)
    Haven't you vaulted the fence yet USB? Breaking in could be part of your warm up image

    No fence USB but a 3 mile warm up away! Although you can park up there at the moment as the grounds are National Trust the little man on the gatehouse might wonder why I'm coming up for a walk in the dark!  No floodlights either image

    Emma - Hope they keep the track.  They added some astroturf 5 a side pitches at our sports centre less than a mile away but didn't put a track in

  • I an totally at a loss as to reasons to get rid of track... It needs some repair at a not inconsiderable cost. However cost of treating obesity would be much greater!

    Sam doesn't do her speed work on a track but I like it for shorter reps. Plus we use the tunnel for stretching after in the warm and dry.I can't get to track for my 5 x 1000m as I have parents evening... Either going to do this on the road or on a tready.

    Prob not going to gym this morning as I have a sore throat this morning. Think a rest ... Well washing, ironing, writing reports and marking a level mocks will be more benefit! Mmmm
  • Emma - so pleased you are having a better end to your running week - that's week 2 nearly done so 1/8th the way through !!

  • Hi Emma

    Great track session. To be more precise about your paces, since you found yourself going quicker - the guideline says 1m/5km pace so your range would actually be 7.40-8 mins per mile. So for these much shorter reps, you can happily go for the quicker end of the spectrum if it feels good to do so.

    Good luck with the long run... don't stress out about hitting 10s on the nose 10-10.15, 10.20 will be a good job!

  • Well done on adding the stretches. It's great to use the gym just to do a stretch and core session once a week. Thi scan be on an easy/ rest day from running.

    Yes I def agree fab tights but I still get that muffin top!!

    Sarah

  • I know this week's not over yet, but here's what Week 3 is looking like for Emma:

    Week Three w/c 9/1/12 approx 29MMon Rest + strength trainingTue 1M jog, 3 x 1M or 1600m at 10K pace (or 8:20) with 400m (or 3-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jogWed RestThu 1M jog, then 4M at Half-Marathon pace (37 mins) then 1M jogFri 5M easy + strength trainingSat 12M slow (approx 2 hrs 10) (off-road would be good)Sun Rest

    Tweaks from the main sub 4.15 programme are a longer but slower long run (12 slow instead of 10 steady) and a slightly faster-pace for the 10km-paced miles, based on Emma's abiility (8.20 per mile instead of 8.30.) But 3 miles at 10k pace is quite tough so I've upped the recoveries to 3 minutes from 2, so she doesn't hate me! image

  • Hi Emma, well done on your selection and good luck with your marathon training.

    *waves to mcs and USB*

    Big thank you to Sam - I followed one of your marathon schedules last year and finished London in 4:18.  A whole 21 minutes quicker than the year before.

    I'm not doing a spring marathon, thinking about doing Abbingdon and really hitting it hard for a Sub 4hr later in the year. but I am looking forward to reading about everyones training.

  • SamMurphyRuns wrote (see)

    Hi Emma

    Great track session. To be more precise about your paces, since you found yourself going quicker - the guideline says 1m/5km pace so your range would actually be 7.40-8 mins per mile. So for these much shorter reps, you can happily go for the quicker end of the spectrum if it feels good to do so.Good luck with the long run... don't stress out about hitting 10s on the nose 10-10.15, 10.20 will be a good job!


    We will aim for 10's which gives us some scope for slowing down for cattle, dogs, horses etc. We kept running past a guy with a pony and trap on one route! Will try not to get too anxious - the long runs at a pace are what I am most worried about.

    My pace was sub 7s for the 200 m but then v v slow for the 1 min recovery. I loved the session though and felt as if I had worked but not exhausted! Think the 3 x 1 miles will be tougher next week! Will probably swap Tues and Thursday around as the 3 x 1600m more suited to track.

    The week after that I should be doing 5 x 1000m on Thurday eve (as I have swapped my Tues and Mon sessions over) - however I will have to do them on Friday morning (Parents evening at school so not back till 10). Hope that is ok. Will be doing 10k fast run on the Saturday because there are absolutely no races on that weekend - how odd! Then a 3 mile recovery run on the sunday afternoon after hubby's football match!

    The other option is that I could do a 14m training run on the sunday with my running club (if parents will baby sit) as I can't find a race. Would that be as good?

    Did do the gym this am - 1/2 hour gently in fatburning zone on cross trainer, plus my strength work, stretches followed by a hot shower and a coffee.image I even got my chums doing the strenth work - they didn't like it much!

  • Suze78 wrote (see)

    Hi Emma, well done on your selection and good luck with your marathon training.

    *waves to mcs and USB*Big thank you to Sam - I followed one of your marathon schedules last year and finished London in 4:18.  A whole 21 minutes quicker than the year before.I'm not doing a spring marathon, thinking about doing Abbingdon and really hitting it hard for a Sub 4hr later in the year. but I am looking forward to reading about everyones training.
    Thanks Suze - great to know that sticking to the schedule works! I would go bananas if I managed 4:18 - well done you fabulous time! WIll keep plugging away!image
  • SamMurphyRuns wrote (see)

    I know this week's not over yet, but here's what Week 3 is looking like for Emma:

    Week Three w/c 9/1/12 approx 29MMon Rest + strength trainingTue 1M jog, 3 x 1M or 1600m at 10K pace (or 8:20) with 400m (or 3-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jogWed RestThu 1M jog, then 4M at Half-Marathon pace (37 mins) then 1M jogFri 5M easy + strength trainingSat 12M slow (approx 2 hrs 10) (off-road would be good)Sun Rest Tweaks from the main sub 4.15 programme are a longer but slower long run (12 slow instead of 10 steady) and a slightly faster-pace for the 10km-paced miles, based on Emma's abiility (8.20 per mile instead of 8.30.) But 3 miles at 10k pace is quite tough so I've upped the recoveries to 3 minutes from 2, so she doesn't hate me! image

    Looks great - I'll swap Tues and Thurs around (as track availiable on Thurs only).

    I see the Tues 'sandwich' session has now got 4 rather than 3 at 1/2 pace - therefore I am going to stick to 1/2 pace this time rather than running off like a loon. WIll also try and use more 'percieved exersion' rather than garmin watching. Should feel comfortably challenging I believe.

    I wouldn't hate you but my friends might get sick of me saying 'Sam says.. and Sam says ....' - ha ha - really put them through their paces with the strength work!

  • Sarah - I did go to the gym in the end and did gentle 30 mins on cross trainer, followed by all the strength work and then some stretching! I still have quite tight calves - think this could be because I'm running slightly faster than I used to?
  • Emma - I know what you mean about a track being nice for shorter reps (thankfully I have an almost flat 200m stretch of underused pavement nearby) but I do have to say that I enjoy the challenge of longer reps more.

    Sarah - Muffin top? You? !!

  • EmmaC wrote (see)
    SamMurphyRuns wrote (see)
    Hi EmmaGreat track session. To be more precise about your paces, since you found yourself going quicker - the guideline says 1m/5km pace so your range would actually be 7.40-8 mins per mile. So for these much shorter reps, you can happily go for the quicker end of the spectrum if it feels good to do so.Good luck with the long run... don't stress out about hitting 10s on the nose 10-10.15, 10.20 will be a good job!


    We will aim for 10's which gives us some scope for slowing down for cattle, dogs, horses etc. We kept running past a guy with a pony and trap on one route! Will try not to get too anxious - the long runs at a pace are what I am most worried about.

    My pace was sub 7s for the 200 m but then v v slow for the 1 min recovery. I loved the session though and felt as if I had worked but not exhausted! Think the 3 x 1 miles will be tougher next week! Will probably swap Tues and Thursday around as the 3 x 1600m more suited to track.

    The week after that I should be doing 5 x 1000m on Thurday eve (as I have swapped my Tues and Mon sessions over) - however I will have to do them on Friday morning (Parents evening at school so not back till 10). Hope that is ok. Will be doing 10k fast run on the Saturday because there are absolutely no races on that weekend - how odd! Then a 3 mile recovery run on the sunday afternoon after hubby's football match!

    The other option is that I could do a 14m training run on the sunday with my running club (if parents will baby sit) as I can't find a race. Would that be as good?

    Did do the gym this am - 1/2 hour gently in fatburning zone on cross trainer, plus my strength work, stretches followed by a hot shower and a coffee.image I even got my chums doing the strenth work - they didn't like it much!


    Hi Emma

    A couple of options to consider regarding week 4. I don't recommend doing the 5 x 1000 on the Friday and then a fast 10km run on Saturday. Try to follow a 'hard-easy' pattern with training rather than doing two hard sessions in a row - to get the most out of them and allow enough recovery.

    So could do the 5 x 1000m on Friday, rest Saturday and 14 miles easy with club on Sunday.

    Or could do the 5 x 1000m on Friday, rest Saturday and do the Les Witton Dartford 10 on the Sunday (it's 10 MILES I should add, not 10k!) Bit of a trek though, maybe?

    Or could do them on Tuesday not on the track (go on time, rather than distance) and then you get Friday to rest and can do the fast 10km on Saturday.

    Gosh, it must be like juggling whilst on a treadmill with an iron in your hand, being you!! image

  • It is a bit like juggling - feel like I'm constantly on a treadmill to be honest. I would happily do them on Tuesday not on Track but would have Tuesdays session to fit in (a sandwich session as I call them). I'm not able to train Thurday evening as I have 6th Form Parents evening!

    How about ... Speed session on Monday, Sandwich session on Tuesday, Steady 6 on Thursday and 12 -14 easy on Saturday, followed by 3 recovery on Sunday? That way I wouldn't need to involve baby sitters!

    It means that I don't have a 10k race - how crucial is it? I am doing more speed/tempo work than I have done previously and will have the Watfor 1/2 only 2 weeks later.

    I could also shorten the sandwich or steady run if you felt it was too much distance. Would give me a total of about 33 - 35 miles which isn't too much over planned distance.image

  • Or I could do Monday and Tuesday as per schedule (Mon - 6 steady, 7 miles steady and marathon pace). Then do the 1000m repeats on Friday monrning and a easy long run on Saturday?image
  • Mum and Dad are baby sitting on the following Sunday so would rather not ask them to do this weekend as well!
  • Hi Emma

    Let's skip the 10km race - as you say, have Watford soon after, and if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I think the best option is to do

    Monday speed 5 x 1k (5.5)

    Tuesday steady REDUCE TO 4

    Wed Rest

    Thursday sandwich 7

    Friday Rest

    Sat Long 12-14

    Sun Easy 3

    Does that work? I'd rather you didn't do speed and sandwich on consecutive days!

  • Hi Ruth - I'm struggling after christmas with my food to be honest! Too many biscuits still around and I seem to have developed a slight addiciton to mince pies. The asics tights are lovely and tight over my tummy but there is far too much escaping over the top! I think I need to cut wheat out of my diet and try to have a low GI diet so that my energy levels stay more level. This requires me to be a bit more organised with my meal planning. Must stop pincing what my boys leave on their plates!

    Evening Emma

    Do you have any symptoms  when you eat wheat?

     I have just suggested to Rosie that she keeps a food diary for the next few days alongside the time she eats these foods/fluids and when you trained. This would at least give me a starting point to work from? Do you have time to do this?  

  • MadWelshWoman (http://www.justgiving.com/JaynieRanceyou still struggle you should cut out all the foods you know are bad and this includes high calorie drinks. You also need to consider your portion sizes and eat regularly . If you are struggling to lose weight and there is no medical reason (most often not) then you are consuming too many calories!
  • The problem is that I have parents evening on the Thursday so I can't run that night! One of the pitfalls of teaching - everyone thinks we have short days and long holidays but truth of the matter a normal day is 9-10 hours and some days are 14 (like parents evenings!).

    I'll have a chat with my Mum and Dad and see how they feel about doing several weekends in a row - I might be able to rope in one of my in laws or my sis to help! The alternative is that I get up v v early on the Thursday morning and do one of the sessions - I could do the 5 x 1k as this wouldn't be a long run.. if I could get out of bed in time it may actually make the rest of the day easier to cope with!image PMA!

    However some good and bad news about today..

    imageHad a terrible run in with an Alsation - owners had no lead and were encouraging it to jump up to head height and chase them. So we stopped and my friend went ahead to ask them to restrain dog until we passed (we were on Downs link so no way to change route). The dog took a brief look at her, then a long look at me and charged for me... I went in to total shut down, hands in fists over my eyes, back to dog and a new uncontrolled reaction, thumbs shoved in my ears so I couldn't hear! It charged right to me and growled - I screamed! Anyway they called it back and were fairly appologetic. But they had no collar or lead and clearly had no control of their dog. I was an absolute sobbing wreck and had to be helped walking! I did stop my Garmin so that time won't count! Absolutely awful, horrendous headache and then need to fall asleep - classic reaction to the stress.

    My friend (who is a dog owner) finds it really frustrating as there is no need for the dogs to behave like that - it is the owners. Other dogs on the journey were totally in control and doing busy work like sniffing trails and collecting sticks! Such a pity as it is car free, sinter/gravel/mud track but pancake flat and kinder to the knees than tarmac.

    Good news - 10 miles in 100 mins! I felt great!

    Splits were not totally even but pretty good:

    10:37, 10:12, 10:03, 9:47, 9:41,10:08,9:59, 10:03, 9:36 (clearly adrenaline from canine encounter!), 9:55.

    So thought that was pretty good news!image

  • Ruth - I often have some unpleasant symptoms when I run very hard or for long distances. Any fruit the night before I run is a no no, as is anything chilliish but I aslo think wheat adds to the problems (emergeny toilet stops and other things that I shan't put on the forum - but would happy email you about!)image

    I think wheat makes me bloated and refine carbs cause me to have sugar highs and lows that I struggle to deal with - when I stick to rye bread and cut out junk I am more energised and less grumpy. But I need to always have snack like bananas and oatcakes otherwise I get exhausted. Have a low GI diet for the summer seemed to really help as I lost nearly a stone. I'm about 5'6" (I have thought for the last 20 years that I was 5'7" but never mind!) and 9 1/2 stone. Certainly not a super slim runner type but pretty healthy I would have thought. However my bupa test said I had too much body fat (shall not disclose value on here!) and needed to build lean mass and cut fat ... surely this could have been influenced by how hydrated I was?

    Shall endeavour to keep a food diary ... from tomorrow after I have my cookies and cup of earl grey this evening!image

  • PS - general question to Sam/Ruth (or anyone who knows more than me, which is most) - should I be using gels in training? If so at what distance and how often?

    Didn't feel the need to use one today so didn't - will my body learn to use fat rather than carbs with or without them?

    Thanks... Tea and choloate chip cookies await!image

  • Hey Emma - hope you're ok - that sounds horrible.  I'm a dog owner but I'm intimidated by big dogs when I'm out in the forest by myself! Sometimes I wish they would bring back dog licences and an element of accountability.  I spent months at classes learning how to train Rascal - unfortunately not everyone does this.

    Hope you feel less traumatised soon.  Have an extra cookie, or two. No-one will ever know! image

  • Thank you Sleepy Bear - have had 3 cookies (don't tell anyone). It means that I can never, ever run along bridle ways paths etc on my own, which is sad.

    Most dog owners are fab, if they know their dog will get frisky in anyway (or want to run along and join us) they stop and hold the dog/put in on the lead etc until we pass. Then I can beam at them and thank them for their courtesy, but not those folks with their great big, bloody intimidating dog! Bet they drive in a similar way!

    I've decided that I rather like Spaniels.. they have really sweet little faces and are always very busy sniffing things and being all purposeful! Also they look really funny when their ears flop up and downimage.

    If onlly all dog owners were like you - I wouldn't have this phobia! Thanks for the support - did you run today or are you out tomorrow?

  • Really sorry to hear about the dog incident Emma image.

    People who let their dogs scare other people like that and can't keep them under control in public make me so cross. There is so much they can do training wise to sort out issues with dogs who chase runners too, but unfortunately owners who are irresponsible enough to let their dogs be out of control in public usually aren't the ones interested in sorting out specific behavioural issues.

    I know you know all this already, and instinctive fear reactions are really hard to modify when confronted with the situation, but if, after shouting to the person to get their dog on the lead or hold it for a minute (perfectly reasonable thing to request when running past, they have a legal duty to be in control of their animal in public), the dog still charges at the runner, any screaming or shouting at pitch or fearful movements (flailing, running away, swiping with arms) are likely to stimulate the dog's instinctive prey drive and exacerbate their behaviour. Arousal and aggression are generally considered to be on a continuum in dogs so the best thing you can do to reduce any risk if you are confronted with irresponsible dog owners is to be as in control of your own response as you can be, and reduce their excitement as much as you can. Dogs are really tuned into behavioural cues so there is quite a bit you can do to affect how a charging dog responds when it gets to you - even though it's owners are clearly idiots and irresponsible to put you in that situation. If you are afraid the best thing to do is act as unafraid as you possibly can and stand still with your arms into your body and avoid eye contact with the dog completely. Don't turn your back if you can help it, and when you do move away back away still facing the dog. If you fall roll into a ball with hands behind your neck. I know this is a rubbish thing to have to do when you are out just trying to have a run.. Some people advocate dog deterrants (throwing water etc) but these can be dangerous and wind the dog up, so it sounds like the approach you and your friend are taking is best..

  • You are so right Rosie - the sort of people who have badly behaved dogs are the sort of people who don't want to sort it out. They need clear boundaries, lots of positive reinforcement... a bit like children.

    I've been a very grumpy Mummy today (think the alsatian thing shook me up so much) so will endeavour to be lovely to my little boys tomorrow! Smimming or bike riding I think!

    Thank you so much for the advice - I will try to put it in to practice! Somethning just sort of takes over. The comments like 'he's alright' about a big boisterous dog are not very helpful either. He might be but I'm not! Anyway - onwards and upwards ... one week done! I'll see you in Brum soon - hope you are feeling tip top now! x

  • You're right Emma, people who say 'he's alright' about a dog they can't control are not only unhelpful, they also don't know much about dogs image, any dog has the potential to not be 'alright', dogs I've been bitten by (at work, never while running, though I know that won't be much reassurance) often haven't been known as 'biters'. They were just afraid or very wound up (the arousal-aggression spectrum again, put any dog in the right situation and it has that potential).

    Sometimes as you don't have much time from seeing a big dog off the lead to when it has run up to you it can help to have a short phrase worked out for owners - telling them to hold their dog, and giving them a short reason why (e.g 'can you keep hold of him? I was tripped by a dog and injured') . You shouldn't need a reason why, but as you've noted, people who don't control their dogs are usually of the opinion their dog is 'alright' and unfortunately require an explanation as to why they should control it. They are totally in the wrong on this, but as you don't have long and it can be a charged situation a stock phrase can help. Rewarding the owners for good behaviour as you are doing by thanking them (even though they are just doing what they are legally required to) seems to work sometimes too, as inevitably running near home you will come across the same dogs on different occassions so it's worth training them if you can. Owners are much harder to train than dogs, but it is possible!  If there is a particular dog that causes you problems more than once, there are avenues you can pursue to try to force the owner to better control the dog, but these are hasslesome and can be difficult to get results with.

    Unfortunately some owners will always be irresponsible, so being ready for it happening and understanding why dogs are attracted to runners can help you read their behaviour too. If you get used to dogs over time it can help you learn how to modify their behaviour with your response. I've seen runner-chasing described by four key areas of dog behavioural motivation. This is a long dog-waffle on my part, so have split the motivations to the next post...!

  • 1. For some dogs it's just play. They think the runner is playing and it's a game of chase. These dogs will often leap playfully while chasing and bark quite a bit, they'll be bouncy, wagging tail, they may be quite mouthy and try and play bite or nip. Being really boring looking and standing still with your arms into your body can help reduce how interesting you seem to play with.

    2. Movement-related. Fast movement triggers an instinctive chase or prey drive, particularly in certain breeds of dog, though any poorly trained dog can be susceptible too. It's the movement of the runner that drives this and the dog will often lose interest if the movement stops (hence standing still to stop them). Very rarely dogs will have a predatory motivation (these tend to be dogs that have been trained to attack) and will try to cause injury on catching the person. If it's any help, in my experience people who train their dogs to be like this usually don't take them on country walks (fighting dogs rarely get walked and are even exercised on treadmills indoors in preference to outside such is the nasty weirdness of the dog fighting underworld), so it's unusual to meet a dog who is motivated to attack like that while running, though prey-chasing is common. Dogs prey chasing or predating like this usually won't bark while approaching you, the chase is their focus.

    3. Territorial aggression. This tends to be when you go near what the dog perceives to be their territory (eg their garden or home), and they'll run out and chase you. Some dogs will be terriotorial around their owners too - it can help not to run in between a dog and it's owner if this is the case, give the owner a wide berth. These dogs will often bark while chasing you as they are trying to scare you away.

    4. Fear related. Some dogs see runners as a threat. Generally fear is one of the most common causes of aggression in pet dogs. Often while you are approaching them fear-aggressive dogs will bark or growl, but actually it's when you are no longer facing them as a runner that the problems start as you become a safer target in their scared view of things, and they'll then chase (hence staying facing the dog, and not making eye contact - eye contact in dogs, especially unbroken staring, is quite an agressive statement). Fear-agressive dogs often bark while chasing too.

    Wish I was nearby and there was more I could do to help...

  • I wish you were here too and could provide both therapy and training! Thank you so much for all your time and effort with this it means a lot and I am going to try and put some of your advice in to practice. When I know owners I don't have too much of a problem and I hate to say it but you can judge how a dog will behave based on the owner that's with them. I am completely happy walking past dogs up mountains - poor dog owbers don't take their unfit dogs up to 1000m very often! (falling of the mountains/sheep etc to be dealt with).image

    I'm going to print out your posts and keep them ... I think a lot of what you've said is actually common sense. Trouble is I'm so frightened of dogs that I don't read 'want to play with you' and 'I want to bite you' as different signals.

    I'm going to try and be a bit tougher - am loads better with smaller dogs (eg spanials et al. - not so much terrier nippy type dogs). Breeds I am terrible with are Alsatian/German Shepherds, boxers, dobermans (Weimaraners/dalmations) and the big scary dogs like Rotweillers. Don't like greyhounds either as they are so fast and can be very highly strung. I'm getting better with the dopy dogs like labradors and retrievers.image

    Runs will have to be on country roads rather than on bridle ways etc unless I am with a chum - in fact I think suburban runs on my own only - I'll have to run around the outskirts of the town twice to achieve a decent distance! A pity as I was thinking about getting some trail shoes to help as the cross country runs are so lovely around here!image

    The barking really frightens me - but is it really growling that I should worry about?

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