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BERLIN Marathon 2012
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It's the last time I say anything to the Missus about feeling out of breath.
All systems go for Berlin now
Whale, that's great news Jonah. Although to be honest, I would have been utterly shocked at any other result. Still, as the runner in Glasgow illustrated yesterday, it never hurts to have a check-up so that obvious problems can be delat with. I hope you enjoy the relief and can turn it into a bit more breathlessness before race day.
great news Jonah. All systems go indeed.
How are you doing today then BB? Yesterday's long run caught up with your PF as the day has gone on?
Nice one Jonah8 glad to hear you have the all clear.
Sorry to read about the runner in Glasgow..... never nice to hear of a runner not making it.
Last time I was in Berlin for the marathon I stayed at the Holiday Inn. They do a pasta party on the Friday and Sat night, which is kinda ok. Can anyone recommend a nice Italian? (restuarant not women?)
Johnas mate i was hobbling just a bit this morning but apart from that all good. I have been using the tennis ball every evening for absolutely ages and it starts off really painful on the foot but it really helps. Ankles a bit tender too but feeling pretty positive now compared to last week. i really needed the 20 mile run. Will be doing 55 miles in total this week however if i get to Sunday and i'm struggling will cut down or skip the LSR.
The only downside with the tennis ball is that my my dog sits right infront of me every evening waiting for me to throw the ball for him, he's knackered from just sitting there on edge ready to get the ball...which never gets thrown!
Johnas - yes Kenilworth is most definately undulating. Not a PB course for me but I see that Hellsbells7 got a PB which was excellent running. The start of miles 11 and 12 are pretty special for all the wrong reasons!
I'm following the Hanson Bros plan (as I did for Rotterdam and Edinburgh earlier this year) so my LSR is about 17miles at approx 7.10 pace. The zero taper is an act of faith but seems to work!
Jonah - that's great news, good for you and hopefully this lets you focus on the final build-up.
Blockbuster - what time are you aiming for in Berlin? Wondering if similar to me as my last LSR was 20 miles in 3:01. Am starting to think ahead to pacing and reckon the 4hr pacer is too slow but the 3:45 pacer too fast. Have a couple of questions I'm going to put out on the forum about pacing shortly once I've got my head round it but wondering if there's anyone else looking for a similar time and what their strategy is. My PB is 3:59 and I might be looking to see if I could get down to 3:49 - but the splits frighten me a bit.
Physio happy with progress, been given more exercises on top of all the rest to work hard on strengthening back and glutes. Hoping I'll be feeling fine for a final LSR of 21 miles this weekend coming, if not I might push it back 2 or 3 days. She reckons tempo will be harder on the nerve than LSR, so I might substitute sprint cycling for tempo in the foreseeable future. Looking into a floation belt for pool running just now, anyone else got experience of this?
strunner - for what its worth here is my view. I am not fast, I have a PB off 3:49 and seem to have averaged around 4 hours in my previous marathons.
Basically,
9 min miles gives you a 4:55, 8 min miles 3:30. 8.30min miles give you 3:43. (there or there abouts).
I am after a PB in Berlin so looking for around 3:45 so want to hit 8.30 min miles on average. So my plan is to do a negative split, so do around 8.35's first half then 8.25s second half. I know from previous marathons it is hard to hit these exactly, but as long as you are in the ball park it should be fine.
As a wise man once told me. "Never race the first half of a marathon". Look to get to half way in as best shape as possible. If you feal good increase your pace, if you still feel good at 20miles, race!
Based off your LSR I think you can do it!
BB - good work. Great running.
Last year my hotel also did a pasta party, which was excellent. I'll be searching out an Italian somewhere near where I'm staying I expect. Breakfast-wise? Not sure but may bring my own stuff and get some milk when I'm over.
No running til the GNR. Physio tomorrow. Might get pricey!
BB - sounds positive from where you were last week. baljc proves that you don't need to get that 20+ mile LSR in - target now is to get to start line fit and healthy. oh, and you do know you're going to have to throw that ball just once - it must be like water torture for the dog!
baljc - You're the first person I know that's ever followed the Hanson Bros plan. It's always interested me as a concept since reading the article on them in RW last year where a guy ran his fastest marathon at 41 (sub 2.40), 10 years after setting his PB. Seems to me you have to have real belief in their programme. I know the basis of it is to recreate the last 10k so you're in essence training when tired. Is that how it feels? Doesn't it take a lot of motivation to get out the door when you feel like that? Is there any specific reason you chose that plan over any other (you'd seen others have success with it?) Lots of questions I know so apologies!
Strunner - sounds like you're moving in the right direction. Great news! Last year when training for Amsterdam I missed the last 4 weeks of my schedule and long runs due to runners knee. I did ALL my training in the pool doing aqua running. The secret is to emulate your running style as much as possible and do not doggy paddle. I actually went to classes 3 times a week put on by my local sports centre.
Thanks baljc - that's some great progression in marathon times there! Awesome job when most would probably chuck in the towel after their first marathon being less than pleasant!
I must admit, the Hanson plan does look very similar to what I do - a speed session and a tempo run but with an LSR peaking at 24 miles. The difference I always understood was that the plan I follow throws in MP pace at the end of long runs to emulate the final stages of the marathon and running on tired legs. Looking at your improvements, I do wonder if it's worth it! I can give you my coach's email address if you'd kindly like to tell him to stop torturing me please!
So, your target is sub 2.45? How have you found your MP runs? the step from 2.49 to 2.45 is quite a big one but your previous improvements show you've done those improvements before!
I'm thinking of progressing from 2h54 on my last race to a tentative goal of 3h30 for Berlin. I just don't know that I can keep running for over 4 hours Iain and am concerned that my gait isn't built around going at that speed. It sounds crazy, but it can take more energy going slower than what you are used to - by virtue of losing the 'spring' in your step - and lack of stamina is my main concern.... although I am now over 250kms running since May and have a 20miler in the bag. Woohoo.
Will try and get a couple of hours cycling in tonight.
Strunner hey, my PB was 4-01 in Amsetrdam last year. I would like to go sub-4. I had a terrible 4-14 in London this year so i switched to P&D and massively upped my mileage (hence PF probably!). So my LSR pace is between 9-05 and 9-15 per mile. I was planning on trying 8-45/mile as my pace for berlin - that should be a 3-50 mara but i just know that the second half will be slower so hoping the faster first half will help me get over the line in sub-4...reading this back this sounds like a pretty dodgy plan...would be great to have someone to pace me some of my PBs over various distances have been running with better runners, that really helps. MAras i've always run solo never even joined a pacer group but am thinking of tagging on to the 3-45 pace group and holding on for dear life!
Johnas I threw the ball, the dog did not want to give it back, eventually got it and its not pleasant rolling a soggy doggy tennis ball on a bare foot...
Baljc i've read a lot about the Hanson plan like Johnas i really like the idea that you dont need the slog of the LSR and with two kids its such a commitment of time on a Sunday and wipes you out for family activities...however there is such a difference bewteen running 10-13 miles and running 20 or over. As you tire your form suffers so the more LSR you do your body gets used to it and running tired esp if as Johnas says you throw in some MP runs. But one thing ytou have going for you is that you clearly have running talent so seems like the plan works and your running fits around your life rather than the other way round, has to be the right thing!
IM2 are you using the tennis ball or golf ball (or rubber band ball) on your PF? I am so taken with its positive effects I'm getting dubious looks from the wife each evening she thinks there must be some ulterior motive - have to admit it does look odd! Still hobbling a bit very first thing in the morning but goes quickly and have read there are supports you can wear overnight. Have you looked into this?
Running vests...anyone else got their RW name on their shirts? Look out for Blockbuster front and back (ooh er...) and shout out if you see me (you'll have to be s low runner to be anywhere near me!)
I've seen a few mentions of pacing groups on this thread - what pcaers are there at Berlin and how can I find this out?
Baljc - I'm sure my narrow PB was mainly due to it being a fairly soft target and the first time I've trained for a marathon, but thank you.
IM2 and BB - I bought one of the night splints for PF, they're ok but I don't think I got any great benefit from them. Perhaps partly because I kept taking it off whilst asleep! You can make your own Strasbourg sock for much the same effect at less/no cost.
tactic talk is appearing on the thread, we must be getting close. I'm deciding between an easy steady 9 30mm for first 5-10 mile then increase to 8mm for as long as possible. Or going all out at hm pace of 7 30mm till I blow up and see how far I get. tbh I'm inclined on plan B, because I'm guaranteed to hit a wall anyway, I may as well hit it in a good time, I seem to struggle over 3 hours whatever my pace.
Safer - you won't be following the 3:45 pacer then? Presumably the pacers will run even splits? Thanks for the vote of confidence. I spoke ages ago in this thread of doing all my LSRs at "marathon pace", but actually I don't think I distinguished between the pace I ran last (first) marathon (9:09) and an increased pace I should be looking for in Berlin. Basically I hadn't actually given much thought to what time exactly it is I'm aiming for in Berlin. Some of the guys (Johnas for one) said to me you should never run MP on LSRs, so if I've been doing, say, 9:09 (what I was calling "marathon pace") average on LSRs, maybe that means my actual MP is something faster? i.e. I should maybe be aiming to run faster for the full distance than I have on any of my LSRs, and not be put off by fast looking splits?
Johnas - sound advice. I've ordered a flotation belt and already received the order dispatched e-mail. Looking forward to trying this out!
Blockbuster - thought about running with the 3:45 pacer but there's no way I could keep up 8:34 for long, not from the start anyway. Another option is to run with the 4:00 pacer for a while and then push past him, but I'm still not sure I've got the hang of negative splits yet (last marathon I aimed for even splits). I've almost never run with anyone, ever, whether on races or in training. Running with a pace group would be a new experience! Though I wonder how this plays out... if they have slightly more negative splits than you, or vice versa, can it end up wearing you out... are you better following your own pacing etc. Sorry just thoughts flying about. I'm playing around with this pace calculator at the moment - http://www.runningfreeonline.com/Tools/Racing_Splits It has different negative (and positive) split options as well as even-paced halves vs. gradual pace change. Going to print out a number of permutations today and cross out the ones that don't look right for me.
HellsBells - it's in the document I linked to a page or two ago. 3:30, 3:45, 4:00 to name a few from memory.
ADG - that is one crazy negative split!
Guys I'm loving this. To think that before I took up running, I thought the whole thing was just a bland "putting one foot in front of the other", it's great to see that it's actually a really complex (and difficult!) sport.
strunner pace groups can be a nightmare - when you see one come through you get barged out of the way by all the runenrs hanging on to the guy with the balloon for dear life! on pace calculator i have used a really good one that you can put in various race times etc and it tells you what you might aim for as your target race pace
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator
On pace they reckon the faster you are the bigger a gap you can have between your LSR pace abnd race pace but for runners closer to the 4 hour mark studies show that your LSr and race pace are pretty much the same, not sure if thats true for everyone but for me i've tried the approach where every LSR was at MP and i ended up exhausted by the time i was on the start line, you have to have a race pace thats faster than your LSR pace...you have to cross the finsih line completely done in and not capaable of running any further, otherwise you've got your pace wrong, problem is making sure this condition does not happen at mile 20!
SAFER wrote (see)
Strunner - i have to agree with SAFER's wise man. Decide on your target time (3.59.59?) and halve it (1.59.59) and aim to reach 13.1 miles in that time. I've never run with a pace group but pretty sure because of the flat profile of Berlin, this is what the 4 hour pacer will be aiming for and I'd run with them rather than the 3.45 pacer. You can then decide on whether you want to negative split (just to clarify, a negative split means running the second half faster than the first - it's not down to individual mile/km splits. That link to pacing you posted is slightly misleading - i use the mcmillan one BB posted). everything esle BB said is spot on. If you can run your LSR at MP, then your either running it to fast or your MP is too slow!
For me, marathon running is about being as consistent as possible and reaching 20miles feeling good as it's the last 10k where the work really starts.
Does anyone know if we can buy the Finishers T-shirt at the expo as I've just seen them via the facebook feed and the look quite good? Last year I purchased mine at time of registration and can't remember if they were sold at expo.
RE: Pace groups, I know a lot of us are at different levels of running, but how about starting our own pace groups from within the forum? I for one would be interested and think I would benefit from running with others who are looking to run around 3:30
BB - I might wear a vest with TRICKY on, but I might not. Depends on the weather I guess.
TD the Marmite one?
That clean bill of health is excellent news, Jonah. But in light of the sad news about the chap in Glasgow, and remembering Claire Squires in April, it it worth the double-check.
The Hanson plan seems very interesting. I guess it is wrong to think that a shorter longest run makes it look an easy option as the key seems to be to maintain a high level of intensity in every session. It seems a sensible approach that clearly works for Baljc.
SAFER - I tried to enter Comrades yesterday but it didn't ask for my credit card details anywhere. I got some confirmation screen but would not feel confident of a place until I am out of pocket. Do you know what I might've done wrong?
I've been reminded that there will be a 3hr pace chap so I'll stick to him like a limpet to try and get a good qualifier.
Race attire? I'll be wearing the same lucky red vest that that devilishly handsome chap on the left is wearing. I may or may not go for the glasses, guided by the weather. Shorts? I'll consider my options carefully over the next few weeks.
David W,
SCC website does state that those blue t shirts will be on sale at the expo.
http://www.bmw-berlin-marathon.com/en/event/participant-brochure.html
page 27, sale stand at expo and at finish line whilst stocks last.
On Berlin pacing - its a dream to lock into a pace and stay on it as its so flat. Last year I stuck with the 3hr pacers to half way, felt good so went faster for it all to go horribly wrong in the last 4k. If you're after a sub 3 (or any other paced time) you could do far worse than stick to the pacers as the splits will be very even and so you won't waste energy but giving you the chance to beat the pace if you feel strong enough in the last 5/10k.
Yes pace groups can be a big help.. they take a lot of the stress and fussing about things out of the equation which allows you to relax that little bit more. As an example in the Paris marathon this spring I went out hoping for 2:55, while a friend decided to stick with the 3hr pace group. In the end I finished at 2:57, while he came in with the first pacers at 2:59. Afterwards I asked him how he coped with the nasty head wind at the end, in which I had really suffered what felt like a solo battle... and he said "What headwind?". It turned out the 3hour pacers and the runners with them had got together, formed a wall and protected a lot of people from the wind.
I'm really looking forward to Berlin for the reasons baljc said -- that you can lock into and hold a pace nicely. Looking at the course it seems there are lots of straights and not many ups, downs and turns. All we need is perfect weather!!
Johnas - well done on the half, that's a terrific time! Jonah - great news on the tests... so does it seem now that a small sub-2:50 group is on the cards? I'm still umming and ahhing about it... probably because I'm feeling that cumulative fatigue from training and at the moment I don't think I could take on a Sunday dog walker. Still I think I'll give it a shot just for the hell of it.
TD - best of luck with the recovery! I'd be seriously impressed if you manage to run a marathon after the op. 3:30 looks like a good time, as it's probably your easy aerobic/long run pace anyway.
Can anyone help?
My flight on Saturday 29th Sept has been changed and I now cannot get to the expo at airport tempelhof in time for the 6pm closure of registration. The organisers are not open for registration on the race day, will not post race info out and hotel will not assist in my registration. I do not belong to a club or going with a group either - would anybody be available to register for me if I give you my details?
Baljc, that is excellent advice and highlights my mistake. I didn't initially see the point in taking the Mr Price route, but have now done so and been able to enter my credit card details for 1548ZAR which should secure it. Thanks.
Martin, I'm not entirely sure on the protocol for picking up someone else's number and chip at the Expo (I think I'd just need to wave your registration printout), but I could easily meet up somewhere sensible beforehand on the Sunday to hand you your kit if you like... Our hotel is pretty close to it'll be a relaxed 2km walk over for me.
All- Thanks for the well wishes.
Stefan- After Saturdays miserable run I'd be lucky to go sub 3, but tonights 15 miler I managed to keep them under 7min/mile with my HR in the 130's, so barring any mishaps I'm up for pacing a sub 2.50 group.
Last time I paced, I sneaked in on 2.49.59 which was a little too close,I got to half way in 1.24.00
This year at VLM I got to half way in 1.24.01, I did 2.50.27,the following Sunday I ran the Manchester marathon and paced another group to a succesful sub 3 attempt,I did 2.56.00 so maybe if I tried a little harder I could of gone sub 2.50 at VLM.
2010 I paced a group for sub 3, I had been injured for 7 weeks with a trapped nerve in my back, so I got them to 20 miles and let them go, I still did 3.00.45.
Entering Boston on the 10/09/12 part 4 of the majors.
Track Thursday 6 x1000m at 5k pace, should be fun.