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I saw "Shame" on the plane over to Europe. Totally agree with your assessment.
MM: You're brave. I would have shut off the film if I were in public--I would have felt like a perv. And not in the 'good clean fun' sort of way, but in the 'wow that girl's deviant' sort of way.
Put it this way: I wouldn't have wanted one of my parents sitting beside me!
Like:
"That Maus, she's as fit as a butcher's dog."?
When I saw the counsellor/therapist/whatever last week she gave me some forms to fill in whenever I felt like going overboard and bingeing on stuff. I needed to capture where I was, what I was doing etc as well as my mood and reasons for that mood. I then had to look for evidence to support or undermine my reason for the mood (good mood or bad!) and re-assess. Then I had to say if I went ahead and binged or not.
She said that I might feel angry if I didn’t binge but that seemed crazy to me as I assumed by going through the process I’d be rational and not eat crap.
Filled it in on Wednesday last week and it seemed to work. Very tempted to go overboard on a drive back from a meeting but resisted. Then on Friday when faced with similar circumstances I felt really resentful of the process.The governing emotion was one of childish petulance – and I went ahead and ate all the more. Same thing happened on Saturday and on Sunday.
Ok, it hasn’t arrested the behaviour but its an interesting exercise in how irrational, childish emotions can govern actions at the expense of rationality – something I’d never have believed happened with me.
After a pretty bad Thursday and Friday the food intake and food types from Saturday evening to Sunday evening were horrendous to the point where on Monday I felt hung over from eating so much crap. Haven’t dared go near the scales but my jeans and suit trousers feel the difference and the belt has shifted a notch.
Not entirely sure how to approach things now. With the assistance of the memory of Monday’s ‘hangover’ I don’t really fancy chocolate or similar and have taken the view that for a few weeks cutting my trigger foods out completely will help break the cycle while underlying issues are addressed. That worked last night when I felt like gorging myself. Beyond that I don’t know whether to calorie count or not. On the one hand counting cals gives a reassuring feeling of control and seems a sure fire way to get the weight off relatively successfully and quickly, on the other hand I feel that if I’m abstaining from ‘bad’ food then a break from counting calories would be good too.
Anyone any experience of losing weight steadily without counting calories?
DLR: The first time one has to track anything and fill in worksheets is a really tough process, at least it was for me when I started CBT. It made me feel out of control--like some damned piece of paper was ruling my life, and I felt it reduced the complexity of what I was thinking/feeling to catch-phrases, single words, etc. I've come to realize that it (1) keeping track of things forces me to be accountable for my thoughts, emotions, urges, and actions, and (2) that I am not as "complex/misunderstood" as I thought I was (wanted to be?). I have the basic emotions, but my problem is succumbing to guilt and shame, which is far more destructive. Binging is only slightly different than restricting, so I can identify with your motivations/impulses. So, now I do mindfulness practices every day, including an "eating diary" similar to what you had to do, a sleep diary, and even analyses of situations that escalated to the point where my fallback is to self-punish by eating/not eating. Sometimes, I'm resentful of how much time it takes, but I know that if I don't do it, then I won't be facing my problems and I'll fall back into old habits. (I do have evidence that it works as I've observed a marked improvement in my ability to stay calm and not feel shame or guilt when he tries to provoke me--shame and guilt are really my triggers for restriction... and so when I start to feel them, I assess whether they are appropriate reactions, or absolutely not grounded in reality. During this shit time and all of the confusion of my life right now, I haven't self-punished once by purposefully not eating or restricting food...so hang in there--it does work!)
As to your question about losing weight steadily without counting calories: this has been my exact approach since we started Paris Losers, especially after everyone's input at the beginning based upon what I "confessed". I've not lost a lot each week (500g seems to be the general trend), but I have lost something every single week. My approach is the following: I know approximately how many calories I should take in and roughly how many calories are in certain things, but I eat when I'm hungry, I try to have well-balanced meals (protein, veg, and carbs), and if I want chocolate, I eat chocolate. If I want fries, I eat fries. I don't keep a lot of junk food in the house, so that probably does help, and I now have a three alcoholic drink limit that I asked my friends to remind me of (both for caloric reasons and for sloppy drunk reasons). If I eat too much one day, I don't restrict the next--just try to consciously eat more fruits/veggies and less rice/pasta.
Being Pissed off has sent me in the direction of the kitchen cupboards
So far not to much damage been done. I have had some vegetable bolognese and a couple of rice crackers and some grapes..........I only had an egg white omelette for dinner so hopefully.............
Stay strong Kaz!!
Took myself of to bed early last night to stop any further damage!!! Up before 4am and done 11 miles on the TM - YUK!!!, but no childcare until Monday so that X training and strength training at home will have to do!!
Going to X train, and strength train tonight. Hopefully that will cancel out the damage done unless work really f***s me off today again.
The local paper comes out today, so my first stop this morning is the jobs section!!!
Hey DLR,
Comments are usually less complimentary than that! But as they say, what others are saying about you behind your back is absolutely none of your business. Popular opinion is that I am an acquired taste.
I, too, have the petulant child response...*stamps foot*
To your question: After 18 months of very disciplined calorie counting as maintenance, I gave up in October last year. I had been very very unwell (not because of the calorie counting, though) and was recovering. When I got my puppy, I just stopped. It didn't seem important anymore and I managed OK for a bit. Over the course of the 6 months training for the marathon I didn't count, but there was a steady increase of 5 kgs over those 6 months.
In short, it wouldn't be possible for me to lose weight without calorie counting. I think the proof is in my pudding (or lack thereof).
Like KO'S, I like the rules of calorie counting. I like trying to be precise as I can and it's working well for me. Mr Maus spent a little while trying to do it, and basically just spent all his time asking me to figure it out. So it's not for everybody.
I have developed my own way of thinking about it, which could be varied so that you weren't weighing everything to count every calorie. This is going to be a bit long-winded...I apologise in advance. Feel free to ignore or make helpful suggestions to help me improve!
Basically I think of my day in 3 parts, each of about 500 calories. So breakfast + morning snack = 500; lunch + afternoon snack = 500; and dinner + dessert = 500.
I eat pretty much the same thing for breakfast (at about 300 calories) and lunch (about 200 calories) and I have a variety of things I change about as snacks (protein bars (less than 100 calories), a superfood snack called Swisse Trimshot (far and away the best weightloss shake I've found, not sure if it's in the UK - all the others just make me want more and more), very low calorie yoghurt (about 60 calories a tub), tea, low calorie hot chocolate mixes (about 60 calories a serve)). Normal snack would be protein bar at 10.30 (if I can hold out) + Trimshot with almond milk or water. Or hot chocolate mix + yoghurt tub.
I assume that my snacks are going to be around 150 and that dinner is going to be my main meal (I should reverse this, but eating dinner together for Mr Maus and me is quality time) and the meal that involves the most variation in calories. I find this easiest because then I've got some known quantities. If I track well through the day usually there's a little extra room to move at dinner time. This makes things HEAPS easier. It's pure tedium and not sustainable over long periods if you have to google every ingredient of every meal.
Within that framework, I give myself some room to move. So, I might not be feeling tremendously hungry at normal morning snack time, or I might be super busy or in meetings and just forget (boredom is a surefire way for me to go in search of food). If I'm lucky, I won't want to make it up in another trimester of the day. But if I've run or I do get bored, I might get ravenous later. I take some perverse pleasure in knowing I have some extra calories up my sleeve. As I'm going along, I'm finding more and more how little I do need to take on. I'm also conscientiously trying to find small portions of things and eat them slowly.
So, DLR, what you could do is some initial investigation around your "set" meals (and have these items readily available), so this would give you an assumed calorie consumption per day.
For example:
Breakfast = high protein muesli, milk + coffee
Morning Snack = crackers + cheese
Lunch = tuna and salad
Afternoon Snack = Milky coffee
Sorry: Post 2
Dinner = mystery meal
Dessert = piece of fruit
Then you just have one meal that will vary the most and you can just count that (or not too - you'll know when it's good or bad). As an aside, I have curbed my fruit intake and have really noticed a difference, but this is a useful transitional device to have something sweet, but healthy sweet.
The only risk here is boredom with the same old, same old. But in some ways there is comfort in this too and if you find enough things to switch around, you can trick yourself into believing you have sufficient variety. Sometimes even just changing the flavour of the yoghurt is enough to get over the boredeom.
Another risk is slipping into a mode of gorging on the available foods. Probably better than an allout binge, though. This depends for me on the location of the available food. There are certain things I keep at work, because I can discipline myself there, but will scarf them if they're at home and vice versa.
Then if I am really craving something, I work to find out what it is and whether I can fulfill the craving with a small portion of it. My rule is that a craving has to be very specific for me to give in: this particular chocolate bar, or this particular type of biscuit, or pancakes with cherry jam. If it's just a "I feel like something bread-y", I try and dance around it a bit, eat some protein and see how I feel, have something close to it (eg, I want chocolate-y stuff - will a hot chocolate mix cure it?) and see how I feel. Sometimes just getting up from my desk is enough to make it go away. And again, the old drink-a-big-glass-of-water-to-make-sure-I'm-not-actually-thirsty trick is good too.
Phew. I am definitely a details person...
MM - that pretty much sums up my approach to calorie counting!!! Although I reverse and have my biggest calorie intake at breakfast - Usually because I have been running first thing - and dinner time is such a rush for me that it is usually salad/omelette for me, and family have a chicken/meat dish(I don't really do meat/fish/chicken although I am not a vegetarian). Another thing I am noticing is that with my coffee addiction back in full swing, my cravings are less but the coffee has to be stronger??? This probably isn't good either thou but better than a family sized bar/bag of???!!!!
Kaz can you give me any tips on learning to run in the morning? I set my alarm, wake up and then..... don't get up.
Its not that I am an owl or anything I would classify myself as a morning person, I used to run in the morning but lately I don't know why I find it so hard...
Audrey - don't hit the snooze button!!! For a while there I struggled to get up too but reassured myself with the thoughts that my body was requiring the rest?!?!? I am a morning person, no matter what time I get up I am needing bed by 11pm
KO's & MM - thanks. I think you've confirmed my thoughts. I'd been toying with the idea of eliminating certain trigger foods but not calorie counting to see how that went but whilst I think I'd maintain weight perfectly well that way I'm not convinced I'd lose it, and after braving the scales this morning...I need to lose it: right back to Paris marathon + 3.2 kg level. Whilst I don't feel so precious/pressured about losing 'x' by 'y' I do recognise that I have 6 weeks until holidays and need to make a difference of some sort by then.
So, plan is:
For the next 6 weeks I count and eliminate trigger foods. At the moment even the thought of them makes me feel queasy so not too difficult. I guess in some respects it's similar to clean eating.
Hopefully that means that's a manageable chunk of time and by holidays I'll have made an appreciable difference to weight, will have started to wean myself off the bad stuff and bought toime while underlying issues/strategies are addressed.
Holiday is in SW France and I'll doubtless eat plenty of cheese and regular meals of confit de canard. Equally I'll eat plenty of fantastic salads and will be very active (marathon training in full swing and lots of swimming and walking too). I'm hopeful that I can limit any gain after 6 weeks of habit changing. I guess i think of this like the base bulding mesocycle in marathon training!
Then I have a tricky 2 weeks. A week at home then Burnham Beeches half immediately followed by being home alone for 5 days. Again, hoping I'll be better equipped to cope and again doing high mileage. Ideally I'd lose any holiday gain.
After that it's the run in to The 'Dam. Includes a wekend away at the athletics but hopefully wil be focussed enough on Amsterdam and doing high enough mileage that there's no gain and maybe even a tiny loss, so in marathon training terms its the fine tuning stage!
and...
...I think I need figures(or abstensions) for Kaz, Sal, NGUG & Suzy. Nobody is anywhere near my week's gain!
DLR - I don't weigh til Saturday.
No worries Kaz - I can hang fire until then and make it a saturday update rather than Weds
DLR: Don't be afraid to count calories first and eliminate second. Sometimes the mere act of counting can help to bring things back into balance.
DLR I was thinking about this while I was running this morning...like you do! The process you're going through following the counselling sounds like it's not that comfortable, even though it's important. I usually find that the more averse I am to doing something, the more I actually need to do it
...I think what I am saying is, don't put too much pressure on yourself to achieve *everything* at once - the calorie counting, the food elimination and the head unbending. Follow the process and the rest will become easier to sort out. Have you got any follow up sessions booked?
Aye - next Wednesday evening.
Goodoh, we'll wait for the definitive word on whether you're bonkers or not then....
Oh, we're all either mad or medicated in my view.
I've just hit the depths of despair. It's nearly midnight. I've been slogging my guts out to draft a very technical and detailed job application. I'm absolutely totally exhausted and sick of drivelling on about how qualified I am.
Only to discover my wingman Mr Maus is NOT BLOODY HERE TOMORROW TO HELP ME CHECK IT AND FINISH IT.
Shoutiness over.
Well, as a Paris thread veteran I'm already obsessed with my stools. Just need to start fancying my mam and having (post ice bath) penis envy to complete the unholy trinity.
If its emailable Maus I'm happy to check grammar etc but may not have much to offer on content!
Me too - it's not my job, I am just Strict
I wish I had you guys when filling in my job applications I am total crap at that stuff. Can you teach me how to cycle round a sharp bend without unclipping cleats?? That would be cool
KO's re Sean Penn, have youn watched 'at close range', one of my favourite films.
DLR sounds like the counseling is unravelling your bonce, keep up with it and be strong.
Re the calorie counting, i have never tried this, i just try to make choices between (perceived) good and bad foods.
weather has been shocking last two days and i have not run. i am in the middle of my four days off from work. think i might go and join a gym tomorrow so i can get some miles in on a treadmill while off work. ( lovely free gym in work but 50 miles away..booo )
My work shifts this week are really messing with my meal times. Today I start work at 10 and finish at 7 so lunch and dinner are all too f*** which will probably mean disaster..........if yesterday is anything to go by.
I am going to try and stay strong and disciplined today but it isn't easy. Lunch/dinner will be at 3.30 - 4.30 to accomodate picking kidz up from school and getting them home which if like yesterday will mean no time for food.............then came 7pm disaster struck.
Positive thinking.........