Gun time vs Chip time

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  • Thiswayup - under the athletic rules - it is a race. End of discussion.



    As you say though - people will always start too far forwards. It's great fun checking the results from the front rows of races to see how deluded some people are.
  • I think you'll find Silverstone uses gun time for places and then chip times for everyone else. Not sure at what point they convert, but I'm sure I've read that somewhere. *disclaimer, can't remember where though!*

    I'm all for starting in a concervative position - stops me heading off to fast and I get to overtake people, rather than being up front and getting swamped. But I always quote chip time (when ofered) for my PB. I need all the help I can get to make my times look respectable! image

  • If you have 35,000 runners they cannot all start at the front even if they were all elite runners. In the same way its fair that the first past the post is the winner, its also fair that the persons time is only counted from the moment they cross the start line in mass participation events

    If by some fluke someone crosses the line 10 minutes after the gun and manages to run the distance quicker than the winner but due to physics cannot have been expected to catch them up and cross the line first its just bad luck.

    Also a story to tell the grand kids. Tell them next time to not be so bashful.

    The beauty of chip timing is that it allows a race to have multiple layers of racing.You can race the clock, yourself or the bloke up front. Its always a race.

    You only have to pick the appropiate opponant

  • Tim R2-T2Tim R2-T2 ✭✭✭
    Really for it to be fair there should be a staged start or clearly marked starting areas.





    In most races over a few hundred the organisers put signs showing where certain runners should be.





    I was surprised at a race in March, when I normally start 2/3 of the way down the field for a sub 2:00 half, I found the 2:00 sign post only 1/3 of the way back from the start. It was almost embarassing squeezing my way through the crowd of runners who looked a lot fitter and faster than me. I finished in 1:54 in the top 50% of runners.





    It's not an exact science and even then I was struggling not to bump into people on a run/walk strategy on the hills while being overtaken by people clearly faster than me.
  • I try to stay out of the way of the serious runners to give them a chance of improving their finish times and just try to improve my chip time or aim for a better time than the previous race. That means moving back from the start line so I don't see why I should be penalised for not being in the front row, so to speak. I know what the earlier poster said about Paula (Radcliffe) but she would never be half way down the field from the start line. I saw a small difference between my race time and my chip time after the Kildare 10k (near Dublin) but I wasn't bothered. Maybe the ones who still insist on being up at the front even if they aren't an elite are just there to be seen on TV and in photographs.

  • I'm not sure theres any logic to this but as a mid pack runner I think the main positions in a race should be decided by gun time but I regard my true position in the race as being my chip position.

  • GazOC wrote (see)

    I'm not sure theres any logic to this but as a mid pack runner I think the main positions in a race should be decided by gun time but I regard my true position in the race as being my chip position.

    I totally agree with this. A recent 10K (8000+ runners) I ran specifically stated in the rules that the winners would be decided by gun time and first over the finish line, so the elite runners were lined up at the front and set off a couple of minutes ahead of everyone else, who set off in five separate waves of runners according to predicted finishing time. Everyone else had their chip time recorded, but for the elites basically the gun time equalled their chip time.

    A couple of years ago I ran the Blackpool half marathon and timed myself from the start line as being 2 mins faster than my 'official' time. I told people my PB wasthe shorter time and didn't think I was fibbing at all as that was the time I took to run 13.1, not 13.1 plus the 200 yard shuffle to the start line! But overall I guess it wasn't important as I was well back in the field and like someone already said, only competing against myself...

  • I always try and start as far back as possible, one because the only person I am interested in beating is myself, and two because I like to start at the back and reel people in throughout the race.

    I don't care about my gun position, only my time.

  • I've only been racing 9 months or so and got caught out starting near the back at Liverpool HM. For the first 3 miles I was trying to past walkers who were chatting 2-3 abreast and/or fiddling with Ipods.

     

    What I didn't realize is that although the times I run are average for club races like Helsby HM and Stafford 20 miler where I start in the middle, those same times mean you should be pretty near the front in a "Big City Race" because of the different types of runner that enter those events.

    Roughly the same time that got me in the top 20-25% of finishers at Helsby got me in the top 5-10% at Liverpool. 

     

     

  • Tim R2-T2Tim R2-T2 ✭✭✭
    Yes. That's exactly my experience. Even when you put predicted finish time markers out there will be people (although a minority) who are either over ambitious or simply have no idea what time they will run.



    The smaller club races are better, but then I'm not sure this is what the OP is referring to.
  • Not had time to read all the replies but it's good nowadays that many of the big races get people to start at an appropriate place on the grid based on finishing time. Some races have even used a numbering system based upon finishing time.  These things don't usually affect the elite runners anyway as those with any sense will start in the first row or two.  As for the rest of us, you don't want to be starting so far back that you're with runners much slower than yourself, thus getting boxed in and having to wait for a kilometre or two for things to open up.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    dhale750 wrote (see)

    I guess it's pretty strange how mass races differ in their approaches. Last year Silverstone half for example ordered everyone by chip time, and didn't even include gun times for people to see!

     

    Helen Liz wrote (see)

    I think you'll find Silverstone uses gun time for places and then chip times for everyone else. Not sure at what point they convert, but I'm sure I've read that somewhere. *disclaimer, can't remember where though!*

    I'm all for starting in a concervative position - stops me heading off to fast and I get to overtake people, rather than being up front and getting swamped. But I always quote chip time (when ofered) for my PB. I need all the help I can get to make my times look respectable! image

     

    I've done Silverstone half  4 times.It's quite a tough race to get anywhere near the position you should start in, unless you're willing to stand in the no doubt cold wind for 30mins +. Therefore, you're relying on the chip time. I've never actually started further forward than the 1hr 45 marker, despite my slowest time there being inthe low 1hr 30s...

     One year I started 5minutes late, yet was pleased to see they'd ranked it by chip time.

    Will always remember a guy killing himself to take me by 1second on the line, not realising I'd beaten him by 4mins 59 overall image

     

    obviously agree with everyone about it being more sensible to list results in gun order...

    however annoying it used to be finding you'd beaten people ahead of you, but they'd cynically started too far forward to try and get a higher position/ranking

  • Tim R2-T2Tim R2-T2 ✭✭✭
    In that case there must be a balance to be had. Ranking people by chip time can't be right. If you're interested in a place it should be gun time and its part of the race that people who want to beat you should have to get past you.



    Otherwise the chip time should be just the time you ran the race in.



    Technically you could start 5mins later them someone and 'beat' them by 4:59 but you're not running in the same race. You're running in a race that started 5mins later against the people who crossed the start line 5 mins late.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Generally agree Tim, but Silverstone half to me is an exception, as it's nigh impossible to get to the front grid, as the entrances only let you in midway or near the back. So unless you get there obscenely early you aint getting to the front.

    If i ever do Silverstone again, I will get there super early though, as a sub 1hr 20 there seems to get you right in the top 15 these days!

  • Tim R2-T2Tim R2-T2 ✭✭✭
    It's a race like Brighton marathon. For potential London marathoners. Silverstone's just at the right point for those training to 'try' a 'proper' race before London. Brighton is like the race everyone enters as their fallback in case they don't get into London.



    I looked at Silverstone and just couldn't see the appeal.



    I think you just have to be a bit headstrong and honest with people at the start and squeeze through. I would certainly let anyone start on front of me if they told me they're hoping for a sub 1:20.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    I did it 4 times from 04 to 08 in the 1hr 25 to 1hr 31 mixer, and back then, the times in the top 50 seemed amazing.

    However, now i check back, to what my current best would do, and it's surprising.

    By way of comparison, our local top quality half in Wokingham would have about 60 sub 1hr 20 out of 2,500 finishers. Whereas That would be top 15 at least at Silverstone out of a minimum of 5,000, often up to 8,000runners.

    The wind and wide course must make it a slower course, but would be interesting to run it from the front for once.

    But agreed, more of a "tick off" race, and London preparation than particularly a big pb option race.

    I suppose i was less realising of the potential to be slowed down, or penned in in my other Silverstone races, and was comfortable enough to let the chip do it's work. When i started 5mins late in 06, I remember doing the first mile in 6mins dead, which set me off to a nice pb. I'll always remember it as the clock read 11mins exactly image

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