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Interesting thread.
@philpub - I don't think it's fair to lump humanism in with miserable times.
It is perfectable possible to be a humanist or an atheist and yet still have aspiritual aspect to your life and a strong moral code. You also don't need to bash religion to be either of these things. I will accept, unhappily, that there is often a lack of respect from folks calling themselves atheists or humanists towards organised religion. I also would confess to sometimes get quite cross at various religious figures when they come out with hate filled rants justified only by 'but the bible says' and I do feel myself wanting to rant back. (talking about a certain Cardinal here just for clarification)
Whilst atheism isn't a religion in itself - there is a subset of people within that group who do hold strong beliefs - and they have a lot in common with organised religion - they just don't need or want a god figure.
Again, as an atheist I have absolutely no problem at all with the historical accuracy of the 'person' of Jesus. I think it would be difficult for a new religion to have taken over large parts of the world (no matter how favourable the political landscape at the time ) without their being a real person at the centre of it.
I just have an issue with him being divine. Oh yeah and Paul - I have a lot of issues with Paul.
+1 with that as a fellow atheist
I equate a strong moral code to almost being like upholding "Christian values" but take out the religious aspect of that.
it's the blind faith of many religious zealots that gets me - they really haven't done any joined up thinking at all, and in many cases no thinking at all. if I want a God/figurehead/whatever you want to call it, then fine, go ahead and believe in that but don't try and impose that belief on me - I'll make up my own mind thanks.
+1 to the above
You may not find saying "it's bollox" helpful but what evidence is presented for Jesus/God - it all seems about "I just believe" or "I have faith" (i.e. belief without evidence) so "It's bollox" is on pretty much the same level.
If you want a reason why I don 't believe it's because no-one has ever presented me with any evidence why I should.
Thanks again Gymaddict, Good points there and I wholeheartedly agree.
Fat Buddha again I agree, I went to a Church the other day and they thought I was weird for not believing in Noahs Ark and perhaps a majority of the Old Testament stories. If truth be known they freak me out a little bit. Christianity is a huge beast but the only part of the beast most people see are the crazy ass people on the news. Usually opposing something that seems like common sense, however they lose their common sense due to religion. My common sense goes hand in hand with religion. Or the Jehovas witness, they are pretty crazy and if you asked them they would think I was. How can it be wrong for your child to have a blood transfusion to save their life? They have been pumped full of Bible c**p from a young age and it can be deadly
xfr bear, You believe in Love? You cannot see that. You believe in Magnetic waves you cannot see them?
It really is all about faith
That's a duff argument - you present two things I can't see that I'd say do exist, but that in no way means that anything you can't see must exist. That's the sort of thing that annoys me about religious people.
Believing that magnetic waves are real is about testing the idea to see if it works and using that as evidence by designing experiments to rule out alternative hypotheses. You can't say that for religion, or not without being disingenuous.
I wouldn't disagree that it's all about faith, but that for me makes it a reason not to believe it.
Sorry Vicar -just off out for lunch
I can't see my arse when I'm wiping it but that's no good reason to say it doesn't exist. but I have to have faith that it's there or it's going to get very messy.....
fat buddha YES thank GOD somebody gets it
Although you can ask somebody for assistance in proving you have an ass, so perhaps the argument is null an void;-)
Dont lie xfr bear your off out for midday prayer
Interesting topic.
Some of the comments have got me thinking, but not strictly about religion. 15 mile bike ride to Ham Hill, Yeovil, Messy Church, town with a population of 8000. Wondering which of the churches in the the Yeocil vicinity has an interesting trainee vicar.
If you are in the area then you should fit in as there are lots of differing styles and approaches to Christianity in this part of the world.
you do not need faith to know it's there
Res ipsa loquitur
One minute you are talking about facts (and evidence for Jesus) and the next minute you are talking about faith. Make your mind up!
You don't have to have faith to believe in magnetic waves..... Just saying as a former physicist, the EM spectrum is somewhat different from the concept of a god.
You can see the interaction of 'invisible' things all the time by experimentation and by the actions they cause (i.e you can SEE magnestism at work). I can already see the argument coming that you can see the hand of god in things....perhaps but I would argue that you and I could view the same thing and come to completely different conclusions about its origin. This is a very subjective proof/fact indeed. Whereas scientists have pretty much agreed on magnetism I think it is fair to say.
I also believe there have been actual experiments to try and prove the efficacy of prayer. No need to tell you the result... perhaps the big man didn't like being challenged, as after all we humans are supposed to have faith and not look for proof (convenient that).
I am not trying to persuade you - just saying that your argument about invisible things needs to be stronger (IMHO).
I presume this was aimed at StevieG. I agree with all of this!
Re: Believing in things that are invisible. I think the simplest way I could think of to explain this to a child would be to blow in their face. Air = invisible, but very real.
Re: Efficacy of prayer. You really don't need scientific experiments for this, just logical argument. Millions of people pray for competing desires all the time. On the start line of a race, at least three athletes may be kissing crosses, making the sign of the cross or looking towards the sky. There can be only one winner.
yip - sorry phil
Hi All, Thanks agin for the interesting comments. I know my comment about magnetism and love was very light weight. But it was meant in jest.
Krytan, I have strong facts to suggest Jesus existed I have strong facts he done what he done I have faith that he was the son of God
JvR I got a bike rack head go Northa few miles of Yeovil and you will be getting close
PhilPub and Gymaddict. Experiments on prayer do give surprising results. Firstly I tell you why I pray (ot saying everybody is the same) I pray to get a weight off my shoulders, if I dont want to moan at the wife I spend half hour running things through my head thinking, perhaps I should have said that or done that different. I run it all past God. Do I think it will make a difference......Not really but I believe he listens. But to me it gets me head straight. If we all took half hour out of our busy schedules to stop and think and be quiet its amazing what crops up. Do I believe praying for my dying granny will heal her, nope I don't. However do I pray for my granny that she will be received into heaven damn right I do. Prayer isn't just about want want want.
But investigations into prayer sometimes show that if the person knows they are being prayed for it can have positive consequences. But then again could just be luck.
Philpub great description of the runners kissing the cross. Same as the germans during WW2 had Gott Mit Uns on their belts - meaning God with us. Didn't work out well for them. Essentially we can ask for things in prayer and they do not always turn out the way we hoped but a few years down the line we can sometimes look back and say ah thats why
Yes, but you said that the one thing led you to believe in the other. This is woolly thinking because no matter how much evidence we have or don't have of Jesus as a historical figure, it doesn't follow on from that that God exists.
Kryten nope you are indeed correct. We could both argue till we are blue in the face neither of us will win
y'see - I don't get this heaven and hell lark - it doesn't make sense with anything I understand as a scientist.
afaik, the premise goes that when you die, your soul (whatever one of them is - nobody's proven the existence of it) disappears off to some ethereal plane where you "live" for ever after. or summat like that.
just where the hell is this heaven or hell?? even the theories of the multiverse - i.e. the universe existing in many dimensions - don't seem to have a heaven or hell in them.
I guess it's a way of religion providing a sop to people to suggest that God does exist and you'll meet him in the hereafter.
fanciful bollock basically
I thought you were Anglican - you had better not be praying for intercession of the saints - wrong denomination.
Surely - putting religious head back on - salvation is through faith, not acts - and one's own faith at that - so praying for anther person to be received into heaven doesn't really make sense. It is their faith that is the decider - not yours.
So as no denomination of Christianity (as far as I am aware) has a doctrine of salvation by works..... (despite the rigid rules of some denominations and almost non-sensical theology that their representatives spout). Are you hoping to 'raise or lower' the bar? - by praying your granny gets into heaven are you thinking there is a big set of scales for her to be weighed on..... as I said this is not mainstream christian theology. If you are praying she accepts the holy spirit and accepts Jesus - then fair enough - but again that is something between her and god and not something that prayer can change if there if free will involved and not god 'choosing' who he will save...... and now we are back at predestination.
The idea of clearing your head by giving up your worries to god. I believe many many studies have shown the benefits of meditation on your health - might I suggest that this is why prayer is good for you (rather than because anyone is listening).
As to people getting better when they know people are praying for them - well that is a bit of a no-brainer. It has been shown time and time again that a positive mental attitude has a physiological effect.
Gymaddict,
Im praying as a human. I am asking for God to accept her. I know its nothing to do with me. I know some vicars pray for a parking spaces lol. We all pray for different things. I've been selfish and prayed for things I shouldn't have. Everybody does, but deep down I know its not up to me who goes to heaven but I am just being honest with God about my feelings IE I want granny to go to heaven, will she go to heaven? I hope so
My praying recently is less selfish as I pray each night for many many people and being called to do this means its part of the job so to speak. I can say peoples prayers for them too. IE They are finding it hard to and they ask me can I say their prayers for them. Prayer is another offshoot of religion that you can chat about for hours and hours. Prayer to a lot of people is comforting who are we to argue
In this regard then, prayer is good for you - whether or not someone is listening seems irrelevant.
Yes...... However I think God listens but doesn't always re-act in the way we might imagine
Or perhaps God does nothing (as he doesn't exist) and the prayer is creating their own meaning and response in things that would have happened anyway.
We can never prove either way.
We all have a God shaped hole (think of that as you wish) and different people fill it in different ways and this is what it comes down to
I have much more fundamental problems. Why did God create the universe? A perfect entity has no need to create anything as it is complete in itself. An imperfect world is created by a perfect God who loves his creations but permits unlimited suffering not only to those who were supposedly made in His image - and what a botched job that was - but to myriads of other sentient creatures who might or might not have souls depending on what belief system you adhere to. What proof is there indeed that God is in fact good and not just some malign puppet-master who just got a bit bored with perpetual chaos and fancied a bit of amusement?