Mini Sermon/teaching

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  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    We can never prove either way.

    We all have a God shaped hole (think of that as you wish) and different people fill it in different ways and this is what it comes down to

    I am sorry but I don't agree. People have many phsycological needs - god isn't necessarily one of them.  

  • @ Bear B.Hind, In my opinion there can't be proof that god is good, your opinion of good is different to mine and I'm sure TheVicars opinion of good is different from yours.  There can be no proof for something that's subjective.  I'd say he's good for giving us a chance at freedom, to be anyway we want and  to do anything we want, others may disagree.  To have predestined perfection or predestined anything in my opionion would not be good, an imperfect world is surely better than that, maybe in Gods opinion the world is perfect, it depends if it turned out the way he wanted it to.  Your opinion of perfect is probably different to his, again pefection is also subjective.  

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    I'm willing to conceive of the idea of everyone having a ''what's it all about?''-shaped hole, some of whom fill it with God, others with an atheistic / agnostic / scientistic, etc. standpoint, and even more with a shrug of the shoulders and an attitude of ''we're here... or at least appear to be... so let's make the most of it.''  I tend to flit between atheistic agnosticism and a shrug of the shoulders, depending on how much I can be bothered thinking about it at the time.  image

    I can't conceive of an objective and universal idea about what is ''good'' or perfection.  Seems to me that such a thing is contingent upon a conscious agent making a value judgment of some sort, and whilst there is more than one conscience there will be subjective, conflicting claims as to what is good or perfection.

    I think I need to read Spinoza again.

  • Iodan - still not answered fundametal question as to why God started it all..

  • PhilPub wrote (see)

    I can't conceive of an objective and universal idea about what is ''good'' or perfection.  Seems to me that such a thing is contingent upon a conscious agent making a value judgment of some sort, and whilst there is more than one conscience there will be subjective, conflicting claims as to what is good or perfection.

    I think I need to read Spinoza again.

    @PhilPub - Couldn't have put it better myselfimage

  • Bear B.Hind - Trust me Bear I don't have answers for questions like that, that's for people a lot more knowledgeable and with a lot more faith than me to ponder over.  As I said earlier I lost my faith when things got tough. I wish I could have it back but I can't.

    Maybe if I ever meet him I might ask him, I might ask him the meaning of life as well but till then I think both questions will go without answers.

     

  • Allowing for varying concepts of what is actually 'good' - although if we do not know exactly what it is I'm not sure quite how we are expected to be it - I think we all have a pretty universal idea of what constitutes suffering, grief and pain.  As these are inescapable parts of conscious existence I cannot accept that if an external force ('God' if you like) caused them to be how it can be considered an all loving all seeing entity. Furthermore why should  this perfect being have given rise to quite so many diverse and conflicting leaders/ messiahs/gurus each offering their own interpretation of holiness and as often as not condemning the rest to us to eternal damnation - or oblivion if they're feeling kind - when there is only supposedly one true path (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?).

  • Without an afterlife (God or no God), there is nothing. After you die you are as you were before you were born. You are equal to the caveman born at what is now Basingstoke 8000 years ago... forgettable. Your achievements, your qualities, your feelings are worthless. Even if your antescedants worship you, you will know nothing about it. So you must live for today... and hear this: the hard part, do what ever you wish to benefit yourself, at whatever cost to others, because they are as worthless as you are. Without faith you can do anything... it should be very liberating!



    BBH, every day I love you more and more!
  • Big fan of the spaghetti monster - makes as much sense as anything else that's for sure with just as much proof.

     

    The traditional answer to your question is often 'there are many paths to god'...  platitudes of that sort, we have all heard them.

    And it is true that a lot of religions have similar themes running through them and a lot of theology is based on common sense and hygiene at the time the holy books were written.

    (Which makes it even more absurd to take things out of context and make them central tenents of a faith... but that is a BIG discussion)

    But I agree with your point Bear.

    The religion you end up in, is nearly always determined by where you were born and the influences upon you as you develop. How then can anyone be assured of finding the right path when really they are stuck on the one they were born to?  (Some people do convert obviously but it is the minority)

    Relgion was a control and power mechanism in society for a long long time - it is only relatively recently that there has been any freedom to choose NOT to be in one church or another - and what do we see   - folks are not flocking to churches, that's for sure.  

     

    One last 'proof' of religion in general being nonsense....... Scientology.  

     

    I am willing to bet that if is still going in a few generations or so it may even manage to garner some respectability. Before you know it, folks will genuinly be converted, and believe it and live by it and it will become just 'one more pathway to god' or whatever.  The way something like this can become a religion surely must put doubts in folks heads about the more established religions.  All they have over scientology is more time.

     

  • King Kong wrote (see)
    Without an afterlife (God or no God), there is nothing. After you die you are as you were before you were born. You are equal to the caveman born at what is now Basingstoke 8000 years ago... forgettable. Your achievements, your qualities, your feelings are worthless. Even if your antescedants worship you, you will know nothing about it. So you must live for today... and hear this: the hard part, do what ever you wish to benefit yourself, at whatever cost to others, because they are as worthless as you are. Without faith you can do anything... it should be very liberating!

    BBH, every day I love you more and more!

    Ah no no no no  - the fact that this is IT, there is no after, no before makes it even more important that we cherish each individual and endeavour to be the best that we can be in the short time that we have.

  • You might think that, but there are loads of religious nuts out there who will wipe you out without a second thought for being an irreligious infadel. remember that next time you fet on a plane, or a train or a bus.
  • Kind ladies and gents,

    All the answers I can give as to why we are here will be seen as a cop out with the Atheists and make sense to the religious among you.

    Jesus in my opinion, was made man so humans, with what very little we know, can understand a minute piece of what God is. We see Jesus as God as that's what we as humans can handle. Even if you don't believe you will stand in awe at something like the universe, its massive, its beautiful its completely and utterly mind blowing. Thats how I feel with God. I understand 0.0000000000001% of what God is. But that tiny percent is all I need to know. As to why the world was made literally God knows image I do question it the same as anybody else

    As to whether God is eternally good. Well in the old testament he seems to be a right Bastardimage But to me its what the people at the time knew. If an earthquake happened 4000 years ago, they will blame it on God because they would not have known what an earthquake was. Floods......Noah appeared from that, as that's how they could understand things. This will beg more questions......

    It all depends what is seen as Good, this could get philosophical and out of hand. For again a very woolly instance. Somebody breaks into my house and gets rumbled and is threatening my daughter and he looks like he might do her harm. However he has not seen me lurking in the shadows. Now what would be good for me would to protect my daughter with everything I got and get him nicked, what would be good for him is to pinch my playstation and do a runner. I know this ain't the greatest way of explaining things but all things cannot be good.......that's another long boring explanation

     

  • King Kong,

    I agree with you. But you can say that about atheists too. Good and bad in both its just that religion is used as an excuse. Im Christian and I think Muslims are great! I really do. Their dedication to their belief is amazing and I really wish I could be as humble and kind as 99.9% of them are. Because they are lovely people but its the ones who use religion as an excuse to cause acts of terror, they are not part of the Islamic faith. You ask anybody who is from a proper Islamic background they will say the same. Religion will always be used for bad things because we are humans. But if you look back at the last century a majority of all atrocities were caused by politics and the like, perhaps religion would be dropped in there but it was not the cause. Their are good and bad Christians, good and bad Jews, good and bad Atheists. Thats life

  • Vicar - I would agree totally that the 'bad' stuff is because of people and not the religion.... However - religion is used as a great excuse by a lot of people as justification for their actions when to a section of society those actions seem completely imoral.

    I think that in some of those cases - religion acts as a bolster for their delusions and ultimately will push many over the edge from quiet 'bad' thoughts to acting out thinking they are serving god.

     

    Just take the current furore over gay marriage.  Certain elements of the church have been happy to spout pretty nasty rhetoric in public because they think they have god or the church on their side.  Whilst not having a religion wouldn't stop these people being homophobic but it would prevent them from having a platform from which to shout their hate.

  • King Kong - thanks for that cheery thought  image

  • Gymaddict,

    Good point well made.

    Gays, well thats the big thing at the moment and my stand point is good luck to them. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if all the congregation were. I can't see God hating somebody for being happy. However, this may ruffle some feathers, I would not marry them in the traditional way as I truely believe that  is husband and wife. However when asked I would be prepared to do a blessing gladly.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    If the only bad thing about religion was that it's used as an excuse by a fringe minority of people for doing really bad things, it might not come in for such criticism. The fact is, whole nations have religious tenets enshrined in law which most people would find completely repugnant.  Kuwait's parliament recently passed a blasphemy law stipulating the death penalty for Muslims who curse God, the Muslim holy book, all prophets and the wives of Islam's Prophet Mohammed.  That's national law.

    I'm sure 99.9% of muslims are generally good and caring people, and probably wouldn't wish the death penalty on anyone just for SAYING STUFF, but given instances such as this blasphemy law, I would say that they are good because it's in their nature to be good, not because of the religion they were born into.  Like most religious people, they will pick and choose which elements of the holy book they believe fits in with their idea of right and wrong and leave out the nasty bits.

    ...which brings me back to Heaven and Hell.  Awful concepts.  Growing up as a Catholic child, the idea of Hell scared the shit out of me.  How many times do you have to swear or tell a lie (yeah, I was a right tear-away!) before the gates of Heaven are shut in your face for good and you're resigned to eternal damnation and hellfire?  Wouldn't it be better to teach someone to be nice in this world, else you will be punished in this world by people not being nice to you?

  • Marriage is a social construct.  It is simply the ceremony we have evolved, over time, to show the rest of the world that these two people now stand together and are commited to one another.

     

    Whether is is jumping over a branch, saying special words, making a statement in front of witnesses - the marriage ceremony now is not what it once was as it has changed and evolved over time.  

    Why this cannot be between 2 men or 2 women simply baffles me. Why the insistance on it being between a man and a woman - without referring to god or the bible - please explain?

  • Philpub,

    Thats a very Roman Catholic point of view. I wouldn't even drema of saying to somebody you will go to hell! It ain't on! But what we are talking about are the extremes. We're not talking about the little old lady that I mentioned who had lost her husband, God has been a great help. On a reall basic day to day basis I see religion as a good thing. Just depends what experiences you have had. The CofE id reluctantly dragging itself into the 21st century and I am seeing some really good stuff come out of it.

    As for the countries who run their country by religious law. Thats wrong. Quran and Bible were written a long long time ago. To take law from these is insane. If I die I wouldn't like the fact my wife would have to get with my brother. Or if she cheated on me I could stone her to death. Their has to be a balance of common sense and religion. 10 Commandments for instance, pretty good moral guide and I think most would agree, perhaps not the 1st 2 for Atheists. Then Jesus' new covenant love God and Love your neighbour. Now if we all done what Jesus said and loved our neighbour things would be quite good I think image

    So moral of the story religion ain't all that bad as long as the person wielding it has common sense

  • @phil - here is something I really don't understand.

     

    Okay so I am not RC - but all other christian theology says that you cannot 'earn' your way into heaven - it is by faith alone.  In the same way you cannot earn your way into hell - it is a lack of faith that gets you to hell by virtue of both original sin and the mere fact that we as humans are sinful creatures and therefore are unable to stand in the sight of god without an interceder (i.e. Jesus or sacrifice if you are Jewish).

     

    SO, if salvation is by faith - where on earth does all these rules come into the equation in the Catholic faith?

    (ps I know what I think the answer is of course - it's just a power and control thing but I would love to see proper justification for a practice that seems so out of kilter with theology - or is this why the bible was in latin for so long - so folks couldn't read it and try and figure it out for themselves!)

  • I cannot explain that without reference to the bible because the Bible is basically the book on which I work by. It basically governs my life. So most things I would say would be in some part influenced by the Bible because that is who I am. If I went back to my Atheist roots I would say let them do what they want. But what I am saying is that I have no problems with them doing it in a registry office but I would in a Church. I know I will be slated, i'm pretty liberal but thats just what I feel

  • I really cannot accept that as a reasonable argument I'm afraid. 

    As you yourself have already stated - there are some very dodgy bits in the bible - and I don't just mean the old testament. As a woman quite frankly I think Paul (who NEVER even met Jesus in the flesh) was waaaay too much of a misogynist to be given so much space in the New Testament - I mean - I think the guy had issues to be quite honest.

    He goes from being a pharisee to suddenly being an ardent Christian just like that - from his writings I would say he had head banging zealot written all over him - before and after his conversion.

    Anyway .... back on topic.  When there are so many bits of the bible that are simply historical record and can only be used in an allegorical sense when looking at our modern society - why take one piece and ascribe so much meaning to it - i.e the man/woman thing.

     

  • Anyway - you are not liberal enough.  I feel very strongly that people like you - who can see beyong the BS and look towards the core message (which as I said before I feel is not defined necessarily by religion) - should be standing up and supporting equal marriage.  There are plenty of folks in the church who do agree and those who don't ( I am willing to bet) are just homophobic or scared of something that they can't relate to - rather than have made a rational decision. And I don't believe for a minute they go to the bible and read with an open mind - that's just not how peope work - they go looking for back up for the views they already hold.

     

    I have read the bible cover to cover many times - at no point did I suddenly think to myself 'wow god doesn't dig on gay'   - that isn't exactly the core message of the bible now is it?

    As a vicar you have a chance to preach acceptance and equality- and why bless and not marriage - you either think it's right or you think it's wrong.  Don't stand on the fence.image

  • Again I am governed perhaps by the church and less so by God. Thats not the way I wish it to be but I am in a large establishment and I am governed by its rules. If I were a freelance pastor or something then perhaps I would do it. Now you see that really does open a can of worms. I'm all for women priests etc etc and like I said I dont mind anybody absolutely anybody coming through the doors of the church I will love them all the same. But for me to continue peacefully in doing my job I have to be governed by the Church. So its a massive balancing act that should not have to happen. I am only small and the church is a big old beast

  • Good man - that is a very reasonable answer.image  

  • fat buddhafat buddha ✭✭✭

    +1 with GA on that answer TV

    I guess your job is like many - you'd like to go against the grain but you have to stick to what you're instructed to do.

    now my answer to that would be to follow my belief and go do something else that you are more comfortable with.  I gave up working for a large multinational to do my own thing where I have nobody dictating the rules to me - my rules dictate what I do.  and 25+ years on I have no regrets about that.

    but I guess the only way you could do that is either set your own church up, or just can the job - neither of which is I guess is something you want to do??

  • I still think an established church is good thing though. It can be very dangerous sometimes when you get break away groups that are governed by one person and what they say goes, WACO anyone?. At least with an established church, where things have been tried and tested and vetted, you do get some stability. Swings and roundabouts.

  • fat buddhafat buddha ✭✭✭

    sure swings and roundabouts - same for many jobs.  many would prefer the comfort of being a small fish in a big pond - much like you I guess.

    the freaky breakaways will always happen. much like the lone gunman or fanatical jihadist out for vengeance.  you'll never stop those happening.

    danger is relative I guess in many things.  but that shouldn't stop someone thinking that they shouldn't consider breaking away if it suits their thoughts.

  • Yes thats true. Many churches did break away Baptist, Methodist, URC etc and have done well for themselves. But again you will always always always get a minority that spoil it for everyone. From the football hooligan to the Jihadist, its just the way people are. You get religious sects forming and different cults and it can all get a little messy sometimes. My friend is headteacher of a plymouth bretheren. The kids there tell him daily he is going to hell baring in mind he has been a Christian all his life image Kids should not be pumped full of religion I think its wrong. My daughter is not Baptised, she will make up her own mind. But all I am saying is you middle of the road Christian will be just a normal everyday person. Like I hope I am to a certain point image

  • LOL at the Brethren. I was Baptist and had quite a few friends that were Brethren.  The worst are certainly those who have grown up in that environment and cannot see beyond the ends of their noses.

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