Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
University fees..
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
Having to pay fees should mean that those who enrol will be serious about pursing and finishing their studies. Additionally there may be more useful or purposeful degrees.There was always a waste of money with the number of dropouts.
I'm unsure how much of it is "studying for knowledge's sake" and how much is pure dilettantism. I don't think we should be subsidising dilettantes - they should pay their own way.
*dilettante is an incredibly tricky word so prob spelt it wrong*
Dilettante:
<span class="dnindex"><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">1.
<div class="dndata"><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">a person <span id="hotword">who <span id="hotword">takes <span id="hotword">up <span id="hotword">an art<span id="hotword">, <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">activity, <span id="hotword">or <span id="hotword">subject <span id="hotword">merely <span id="hotword">for <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">amusement, <span id="hotword">especially <span id="hotword">in <span id="hotword">a <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">desultory <span id="hotword">or <span id="hotword">superficial <span id="hotword">way; <span id="hotword">dabbler. <div class="luna-Ent"><span class="dnindex"><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword">2. <div class="dndata"><span id="hotword"><span id="hotword">a <span id="hotword">lover <span id="hotword">of <span id="hotword">an <span id="hotword">art <span id="hotword">or <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">science, <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">especially <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">of <span id="hotword">a <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">fine <span id="hotword" style="color: #333333; cursor: default;">art.The new forum is truly shit.
Yes and No.... those who really can't afford to go, regardless of their accademic abilities, won't be able to simply due to their economic background; those who can afford to go, will, but not necessarily choose courses which require the accademic abilities which (IMHO) university course ought to.
There will, of course, be some in the middle, who will struggle to make ends meet but will go to university and choose a traditional accademic course, but I think these are diluted by the other 2 ends of the spectrum.
Now that I've found out what dilettantism means (google is a wonderful thing), yes I agree with you.... which is where I think selection based on high academic ability comes in... essentially, university courses ought to be substantially more demanding; if a student IS being funded or subsidised, perhaps there should be penalties for them not attaining a particular standard each year (pay back part of the funding, lose funding for the remainder of the course, etc).
Edited to remove some blurb about 'padding-bottom'...
Just wondered what you think of this.....
I know a girl whose parents have never worked. Her father is a layabout slob who quite frankly appalls most people who know him. Every time he has to account for why he's on benefits he magically has some sort of a mental breakdown and then a week later is seen laughing again in the pub. Which is an insult to those who are genuinely suffering mental health issues. Even his partner doesn't believe him and says she can't get him off the X-Box all day because he's too lazy. It hasn't occurred to her that in spite of her four children, she could also work.
Eldest child is bright and is just finishing A-levels and looking at university. As things stand at the moment she will apparently get all her accomodation paid and her tuition too because of their low income. Someone recently decided to give the family a car, with insurance and petrol, so that the dad could maybe find work. It didn't take long for him to realise that if he DOES, his eldest child won't get these paid and so he's decided to stay on the X-box.
Two things. Is it TRUE that those who are on full benefits CAN get these things paid for in full (because I have no idea if it is, it's just what they're telling me) and if so, is that right? Are you happy to pay for her to go to university knowing that her parents are deliberately choosing to NOT work because it's financially more rewarding to do so? This child is so ashamed of her parents that she is planning to change her name as soon as she can because she hates her dad's attitude. Shouldn't she have the chance to better herself and not be penalised because of her background? I swear to you, I have never seen them actually pay for anything in their lives. The eldest kids have been on trips to Africa paid for by other people simply because they've said "we fancy being a part of this but we can't afford it". Sooner or later don't we need to learn to cut our coats according to our cloths?
All just questions, but I'd be really interested to know what others think about it because I'm still unsure myself.
However, it's very difficult to see how you sort the wheat from the chaff in the case you mention. Although we could set up the Liverbird Vetting Agency, I'm not sure we should be punishing the child for the parents' pathetic behaviour, so I think we should subsidise if she's genuinely bright enough, else we're writing off whole generations forever.
Personally the education system we have/should have is a very vexing question for me. My heart says that education should be a level playing field for all, but as a beneficiary of a Grammar School education, who would probably not have got even half the things I have if I'd been shoved into the local secondary, my head saya that a modicum of selection is a good idea. But it's foolish to pretend there aren't big downsides to a selective system.
I believe that some universities will pay the fees for candidates that they think are exceptionally bright and who would otherwise not be able to go to uni. In the case of my old university, these fees are paid for by previous graduates who donate to the cause. I am unaware as to whether there is any form of Government benefit.
Something I heard on the radio yesterday: Some students are copying their personal statements for thier UKAS (or whatever it is now) applications. Unsurprisingly there are model statements that you can download off the internet and there has been a big increase in students doing this recently.
UKAS have an electronic screening process that flags up statements that look similar and alert the universities to this. The univerisities that are high on the league tables take this into account and sometimes ask the candidates to rewrite their statements, and put a mark on the records of that candidate. Those that are low on the league tables tend to ignore this as they feel it is UKAS's job to police it. i.e they are having trouble getting people on their courses so don't want to put barriers up to prevent people getting on them.
This to me is where the system breaks down. Why are we encouraging students who are not even capable of writing their own personal statements to go onto a course where they are going to have to write more complicated essays and assignments?
dilettantism
Never heard of that word before...! See.. Uni is obviously rubbish and a waste of time...
Is it really old-fashioned of me to think that that degree was a monumental waste of time and effort? I really think learning should stretch young people more than that.
Just my personal opinion...
Wasn't there someone who once did a degree on David Beckham....? Crazy...
As well as their course work
Liverbird... that was a really good example of how the benefits system can be exploited.... there are soooooooo many similar stories, not least with council housing and teenage mothers...
had a conversation with a prospective student who told me that going to university was not worth the potential 20k debt.
in which case, shouldn't they be questioning why they are going to university in the first place?
incidentally, it isn't really debt. not like credit card debt etc. student loan repayments don't count against mortgage status etc.
im aware and pretty comfortable with the fact that i'll never pay off my student debt, nor will many others. it's just a graduate tax. which is fine.
Seren nos. My sister is a teacher in a private school. She is expected to write students' personal statements for them and coach them intensively to get through the oxbridge selection process. Another advantage for the wealthy in our grossly unfair education system.
Johnny Blaze. As a fellow council house dwelling beneficiary of the grammar school system, I share your dilemma. Selection would be a good idea if, as im Germany, the different tupes of school were funded equally and the press, etc, did not run down the qualifications. It would also help if the private schools were not leaching off the system and distracting the attention and loyalties of those with money and in power.
You don't have to pay up front - and as the Dude says - many graduates will never have to replay the loan, since tyou only start to pay it back when you are earning >£21,000.
I don't see that the fees mean students from poor backgrounds "can't afford" to go to Uni.
One of the biggest problems in the rise in fees, is the movement to do courses that will lead to a specific job i.e. Dentistry, Medicine, sciences etc. In fact many of my students are choosing courses whose fees are paid for by the NHS. I am a scientist myself and know how wonderful and practical these subjects are. But, as highlighted by the person wanting to study anglo-saxon literature, people think certain courses are not as worthwhile, and these courses are typically in the arts. I am worried that declining popularity of these kind of courses will lead to devaluing of our cultural heritage... without these graduates who are going to curate our museums and galleries? I don't want my child growing up in a cultural vacuum, so I think these kind of courses should also be subsidised and held in as a high regard as the sciences.
Another example that highlights this is Gove's new E-bacc route at GCSE. I agree that in too many schools they have played the qualification game and offered courses that count as 4 GCSE in say nailcare, but my school kept a traditional varied curriculum. The problem of the e-bacc is that now children talented in art and music are opting out of those subjects as they are seen as not important, and I really don't believe this is a good thing for the country.
Wilkie, you are right, it doesn't meant they can't afford to go, but it puts them off. UCAS applications from my school are down by 15%, and the ones not applying who have the ability are all from the lowest income families.
That's exactly what I was going to say, particularly if the children are from families where there is no previous history of going to university.
Ebac is a joke - they've introduced it in No 2 Child's school - he's the first year to have to take it and it has influenced the choices available - which means that a lot of children aren't able to do the courses that they would ultimately like to because they've been forced into taking subjects that form part of Gove's stupid idea - another of which is forcing schools into academies. Again a waste of time and money and of no benefit to the pupils and a serious detriment to local councils.
I did languages at university and was horrified to learn that the school of languages no longer exists due to the decline in demand.
Exactly, would Gove suggest Mozart would have been better studying HIstory instead of Music. It's ludicrous!
wilkie - that's what seems to have been lost. the new legislation actually makes it easier for people from poorer backgrounds to go to uni. no up-front fees was what the NUS demanded and it was what they got, and they still moan.
the only trouble is that, because most people will never pay back the fees, surely there will be a giant black hole in funding.
but we can leave that for a future generation to worry about. we are good at that in this country.
dudes how can it be easier..when i was young and from a poor area.if you were clever enough you went to university and got a grant to help pay for accomodation and living ........many universities had subsidised accomodation.....
now if you are young and clever enough .you need to borrow the money for the fees and you have to find money to pay for your living and accomodation for 3 years............and i'm sure most universities do not offer as cheap accomodation.......
so very difficult to go down that route.....
not sure why doctors have to pay for many years with no help...............like other students........
but nurses and physios etc have their fees paid and still get a bursary.........i think that those proffessions should get in line with other degree courses......
No 2 Child wants to study zoology, so sciences and geography would be a good combo for GCSE - particularly as that is what the VIth form college and universities state as minimum requirements for entrance to appropriate courses. His "academy" (spit) lumps subjects into groups and insists that you select one from each group. Due to the way in which they interpreted Gove's ebac, we wre told that he could not study geography (which, as far as I am aware, still belongs to humanities) but was offered Home Economics and Child Development instead. Very useful - for a boy who wants to study animal behaviour and conservation.
I was going to say something too about those student loans that don't get repaid - the whole system is now ridiculous. But I suppose it comes of trying to insist that everyone should and will go to university.
Yes Seren, another advantage of living in Wales, although the assembly does seem to be quietly following along. Gove is a pillock of the first order and darling of the right wing press. His ebac was introduced retrospectively, so schools which had followed the previous government's line found that their students did not get the ebac as, for example, technical and creative subjects do not count. On the subject of Gove's arsedom, he included classical latin, ancient greek and biblical hebrew as "modern foreign languages" following a demand by the private schools and faith schools.