Overdone it?

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  • Hope it brings good news for you, Skinny. 

  • Hope it goes well: It's been going on for quite a while now. How does it feel?

    I have a private physio appointment Wednesday and a doctors appointment later in the week so I can get an NHS physio lined up as per SG's advice.

    My last proper run was 25th June, almost 2 weeks ago. I did about 2 miles last tuesday, but that was quite painful. Had to do a bit of jogging yesterday to keep my little boy entertained and that was uncomfortable.

    The lack if improvement during this time makes me think its either a quite serious strain or something else entirely. An added frustration is that I have a few race entries lined up. I had a picturesque but very hill trail HM yesterday, which Mrs D kindly ran on my behalf. i don't think she was too happy with the heat, but it turned out to be a nice family day out.

    I have a 10k scheduled for next weekend, then a evening 6 miler the following week, which I think will both be dns. I was hoping for a pb attempt in the 10k, but notwithstanding this, I've spent too long living in yorkshire not to be irked by the wasted entry fees.
  • Plus point is that I've done 90 miles on the bike in the last couple of weeks, which has been nice.
  • Hi Lou - funny that you have a calf injury that is aggravated by running but not by the bike. Hope it clears up quickly - I also had a 10k PB (as little as 6 weeks ago I was thinking sub 39 mins) attempt scheduled for 21st July - if Physio says keep on running then I will do this anyway just to calculate how much I have lost by my inactivity.

    Last few weeks I've had some really difficult stuff to deal with at work which has distracted me from my lack of running but now I am desperate for some good news tomorrow so I can get rid of all my pent up energy.

    Let me know how the physio appointment goes on Wednesday - i'll do same tomorrow.

    Cheers, Skinny

    PS BBB - thanks for the good wishes - see you have run 4 races in 2 weeks - well done on your times - well jell! (a phrase I have stolen from my kidsimage)

  • Thanks, Skinny. Yes, it's been good fun, but not sure I'd be in a hurry to repeat that volume of racing! Nice to notch up 2 PB's in the space of 10 days though - and would certainly have been a third if the 5k distance hadn't been bodged. I now have a '3 mile' time that I'm never likely to (get the opportunity to) improve. image

    'Well jell' - had to Google that one - should have been obvious really! image

  • Some good racing there BBB: Congratulations on the PBs I remember around December last year I had similar cluster of races, which culminated in a 10k pb considerably quicker than I was anticipating. Obviously you can't do that every week, but I think it can be benificial occasionally.



    Cycling doesn't seem to affect my calf. Or at least that is my opinion - it may be that is why I'm not recovering. I had to jog about 200m to catch the train this morning and, like chasing the kids at the weekend, it was obviously painful.

    Quite enjoying the cycling though, so even when I back to running I think I'll try to keep a couple of sessions on the bike each week.
  • Well been to the physio - different one to last time and didn't quite gel with her the same - maybe just as well when it came to fondling my groin.

    So quick summary - seems to be healing, soft tissue damage only, may have a slight hernia on my right hand side but my doc said this about two years ago too so not that worried about that at moment - problem was the left hand side. The stretches will not be doing any harm to the hernia.

    Adductor and also hip flexors really tight and adductors particularly tight on left hand side.

    Should be okay to run but need to be sensible for next couple of weeks - my translation - easy running plus one steady running session this week. If no worse game on next week.

    Can I do 10k a week on Sunday - yes should be okay - no real damage so unlikely o cause anything more than the stiffness I already have but probably should resist a sprint finish. Bearing in mind current fitness levels I don't think that will be an issue!

    Got some additional tips that I'll share in case anyone else is reading with a similar problem.

    1) In initial stages of injury probably best just to concentrate on the stretching then introduce the strengthening exercises gently - she thinks some of my groin stiffness may be simply the strengthening exercises when I've never exercised my groin area before.

    2) Before doing the stretches you can get a better stretch by warming the area first with a hot water bottle.

    3) Bit of cream and self massage can also help - don't think I'll be doing that watching the telly with the kids though!

    So sorry for massive long post - hopefully everything she said is right and I can get on with my running.

    Good luck with your physio appointment tomorrow Lou.

    Cheers, Skinny

  • Not sure number 3 is for family forum reading!

    Hope it gets you back in the game quickly Skinny.

    The cycle seems to be major breakthrough, injury, buildup, major breakthrough, then injury!

    Here's to the next spell of build up!

  • Haha - reading that again I think I could have worded better!image

    Tried 3WU, 4M Steady, 1M WD tonight but had to throw in a recovery mile as third mile of steady so lost a lot of fitness - still seem to be okay after it so I could be on the comeback trail.

  • you can get the fitness back easier than you can break new ground, so don't fret.

    Get this right, and we'll build again.

    Rush it, and it'll be frustration time for a while longer.

  • Stevie G . wrote (see)
      The cycle seems to be major breakthrough, injury, buildup, major breakthrough, then injury!
    Yeah - I'm thinking we need to set cycles so that at the end of say16 weeks I back off for a month say and then go again. That way hopefully I can keep training in some form rather than having to stop completely.
    Also maybe within each cycle I should not actually up my training zones?
    Groin feels okay this morning so hopeful I can start proper training again next week or week after.

    Cheers, Skinny

     

     

  • The thing with a cycle is that it has the leadup culminating in the peak for the key races. So it's not like it's full blast for the full 16 or however many weeks.

    And the training zones are shaped by the race performances really, so that's your own fault for coming on so well image

    But let's get you back fine, and let me know when you want to beging again and we'll manage it.

  • Sounds like you're on the mend. Do you think the problem is overuse that will be fixed by easing off every few months? Perhaps diligent stretching and strengthening over an extended period would sort it out.

    My physio diagnosed a strain in the soleus, a slim muscle that runs down the outside of the calf. He's prescribed bent knee calf raises and stretches, but thinks it should be ok within a week. I'm quite surprised by this as it's still a little bit tender and was quite painful when I had to run for the train earlier in the week.

    He agreed that cycling was good for me to maintain fitness and recommended doing interval sessions on the bike, so I'll have a go at that later today.
  • It's the age old problem, you stay at the current level and probably remain injury free, or you try and push on and risk some niggles arising.

  • Both, my analysis - I would account the problem to the short fast session but also all the hard sessions getting faster as my pace zones drop - neither of these things in themselves would necessarily cause the injury but they heighten the chance of damaging a weak or neglected area.

    So my legs have got stronger, I've been stretching loads but not stretching adductors/groin - hey presto tight adductors and groin strain. Its a real biology lesson this running lark.

    Re Stevie point - yes agree - but what I was wondering is that in a period of rapid improvement I should actually keep the training pace zones the same until I got to a time where my race times started levelling off (or a set time period like 16 weeks) - in that way I would always give all my body a chance to keep up.

    I'm no expert but I've improved rapidly over two training cycles now and then got injured - I'm just thinking about how that has happened and what I could change to make it not happen again - even if it meant slightly slowed improvement. [Appreciating that the faster you go the greater the risk of injury]

    Lou - pleased to hear physio thinks it will be okay - not quite the same thing as it being okay though! Hope they're right!

    Different question - last night I ran for 5 miles at just sub 8 min miles and when got home went for a slow 1.2mile jog with my wife at 11 min miles - logged it on training log as 6.2 miles at 8:30 - am I allowed to count the 1.2 miles as running miles for my annual mileage or not? My thinking is that if I run at 5k pace it only counts the same as Easy pace so I should be allowed some Super Super slow too - are there any unwritten rules on this?

    Cheers, Skinny

  • It could be the case Skinny. But some see reps and miles as an Output rather than an Input. However, something to think about for sure.

    There is a chance though that even if you were technically following the "old" zones, your new fitness would see you naturally enter the "new" zones, even without you purposely attempting to hit them.

    I noticed for some sessions you were smashing the zones anyway...

    When we set your schedule, we keep it lighter than it could be anyway. There tends to be 1 hard session, and 1 medium hard session. That's because 2 hard sessions would break you down.

    We need to monitor it all when you get back to a place you're confident to go again.

    No reason you can't log the ultra slow miles for your tally. But it probably doesn't help your fitness to any great level running way slower than your easy pace. Just need to make sure you don't do so many that it affects the key sessions of the week

     

  • Hi Coach - agree with everything you say - particularly re smashing the zones - something else for me to bear in mind - going forward.

    Last week 37.5 miles with the odd steady pace mile thrown in and a 13.1 LSR on Sunday. Groin seems to have settled so keeping my fingers crossed.

    Will try a 10 miler with 6 miles Steady pace tomorrow and see how I react to that - still entered for a 10k on Sunday that I know I can't even PB at (PB 42:13) but it may be a good way of recharging the competitive juices and also getting the legs moving over a bit quicker than I could manage in training on my own.

    Will decide on Wednesday.

    How's the calf Lou?

    Cheers, Skinny

  • Skinney - You need to hit the zones to get the associated training benefit. If your legs can't cope with it reduce the volume.



    Sounds like you've jumped back in to training with 37.5miles last week. How long have you been off training now? (I know I could read back) My personal, relative novices view is that you don't lose fitness as quickly as some people claim. I reckon you'll surprise yourself on Sunday if you go for it.



    I did 4 miles yesterday lunchtime and was disappointed to feel a definite ache develop which persisted for the rest of the day. Had a masochistic session with the foam roller last night and it feels ok again today so I'll try again tomorrow.



    I've been doing a session on the bike every couple of days, including the commute to my local rail station, which is about 30mins each way. I ride it quite quickly, hoping it might equate to a tempo/steady session.



    I have a 6 mile race entry for Saturday evening. I think I'll go along but just run it at a fairly easy pace.



    How are you finding the heat - probably glad you're not doing any hard sessions in this weather.
  • I've decided to run in the 10k race on Sunday which is slightly different to deciding to race on Sunday but we'll see how it goes. My PB is about 6:45m/m so if I can get close to that it will be a good training run and all part of my return to fitness.

    Hi Richard - I will look very like my avatar as this is my race outfitimage so if you spot me say hello - what sort of time are you hoping for?

    Lou - I think the zones issue last week was definitely just my legs being lazy after a few weeks of non use. My last proper training session was 4th June but ran a 35 mile easy week in middle of June followed by two weeks of no running. My steady 6 mile pace yesterday morning felt like 6 miles of MP effort so I've lost about 15-20 secs per mile but I'm hoping that I can regain that in a couple of weeks simply by running the miles. So 6 miles at 7:12m/m in a training run, 10k PB pace 6:45m/m so I should be able to go close to a PB without really endangering my recovery. If I run around my PB time that would be good as last year that was run 4 weeks before my HM whereas this year I would still have 11 weeks so I would be 7 weeks ahead of last year. 

    Foam rollers definitely the way to go to help you keep running through the injury and I presume you have the stretch and stengthening exercise to cure the injury too.

    I'm really crap at bike riding but must come in handy if you have an injury but can still exercise in a different way and I really don't mind the heat although I seem to sweat a lot more now than I did 20 years ago!

    Good luck to you both for the weekend running - hopefully will see you there Richard.

    Cheers, Skinny.

  • I did four miles yesterday lunch and it was still a bit achey, but it feels fine today.

    Bike commute today then I might try a longer run on Saturday.



    Foam rollers do seem to be effective for self massage to break down tight spots & knots etc. Not sure how you would use one on your groin though Skinney - probably best sticking to the handjob in front of the TV.



    Richard - better get your outfit choice sorted. You don't want to have one of those 'absolutely nothing to wear' moments on Sunday morning.
  • Lou Diamonds wrote (see)

    Not sure how you would use one on your groin though Skinney - probably best sticking to the handjob in front of the TV. 

    image

    Sounds promising on the injury front Lou - I'll report back Sunday/Monday. Drove the course today Richard - its not pancake flat but there are about 4 hills all a bit like the rise to a bridge over a motorway so nothing that should spoil a good time.
     

     

  • Skinny, you should be straight on here. I think your time today is cracking in the circumstances, very positive for when you're back to peak form.

  • Had a funny week - boss over from USA so looked after her all week so after run today been decorating with wife however when I saw you had both posted thought I should tell my race story.

    Ran to 2k point as a warm up and clearly not only was it going to be hot but also quite a strong breeze in our faces all the way as a single direction race. Tried to put together a plan last night but given fitness uncertainty found it quite difficult - decided to try and set off at 6:30 pace as if I was fitter than I thought that would give me outside chance of the sub 40 I wanted.

    Splits tell the story as well as words really - 6:25, 6:35, 6:33, 6:38, 6:45, 6:50, 1:33 for last 0.25. Total time 41:19. 25th out of 436.

    Just didn't quite have the legs - better to come after a few more weeks training I think. Fingers crossed the mega stretching I have done today will mean the groin will be okay tomorrow. I'll let you know tomorrow coach - plan an easy 3 tomorrow, rest on Tuesday and maybe a single quality session this week on Thursday - 3*2 miles at HMP sound okay?

    Felt neither pleased nor disappointed - just felt like a stepping stone race.

    Richard sorry we didn't get to meet up but nice time after a 13 mile run day before - which marathon are you aiming for?

    Lew - did you race on Saturday?

    Cheers, Skinny

  • you've done it again haven't you...reported a time a fair bit slower than you actually ran...what happened to 41.30 ish image

     

    so that's a 51sec pb when you've been rehabbing for 5-6 weeks.

    Bravo sir, if we can cut out the niggle, the training and your will to improve will certainly bring even greater gold.

  • Intersting that you recorded your fastest split during your warm-up. image  Did you not do do any warm up before the race? Not too bad a time, particularly if you were into the wind the whole way.  A pb is a pb (I know that is not true).

    I decided not to 'race' on Saturday as my calf is till a bit tight.  Did 4 easy miles satudray morning and  I think it's feeling better but very slow recovery.  Very busy at work at the moment, but hopefully I'll see if I can squeeze in a few miles at lunchtime.

    Has a couple of hours on the bike yesterday then the rest of the weekend was spent painting exterior woodwork.  What joy!

    Been reading the 2014 triathlon mentoring thread and can't help feeling drawn to the dark side.

  • Lou I read it as he ran to the 2k point before the race as his warm-up. He wouldn't be publicly admitting to not warming up right here where SG can see... 

  • Lit's translation is the correct one - 4k with strides * 5 before race as a warm up but as I didn't know course very well thought I would go down route to have a look. I find the strides are essential to get my legs to realise they are going to go faster than they normally do!

    On PB front my 5 mile race a few months ago felt like a PB, yesterday's race was a PB but just didn't feel like one but factually it was - might be down to one last chance this year to get sub 40 in early September which is next planned race.

    Lou - at least you were outside - I was wallpapering. Triathlon just sounds like an excuse for your running to get slowerimage.

    Coach - when I finished I just forgot about the time completely so it was about 42:30 when I eventually stopped the Garmin. I guessed my time from one of the guys who beat me who I was talking to after the race but his chip time was adjusted by less.

    Pretty stiff generally today but groin seems to have held up so that is encouraging.

    PS Total miles for last week 27.4 (not enough easy miles).

  • what's the plan skinny? a week of some steady or MP miles and then if you come through back to me next week?

  • Richard Hill 27 wrote (see)

    Skinny - it was a good result for you given the conditions. I know what you mean by a pb not feeling like one. Are you doing the Dumfries 10k again in September? I have that on my list to do as that is supposed to be a really good pb course

    I am doing Frankfurt marathon at the end of October. It has 10m of elevation change in 42k, so literally as flat as a pancake. Hope for 3:30 ish and on the way, a 95 minute HM (Cumbria) and 43 minute 10k (Dumfries). I am not copying you honestly but your original posts have a lot of resonance with me as 95m HM was your initial aim, so its good to see the training required to achieve, and beat, that ambition image  

    Yes - Dumfries 10k is next race - it is a wonderful course in that it is point to point but feels like more downhill than uphill - not sure how! Good luck with the marathon training - what sort of mileage are you looking for to do that?

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