Overdone it?



  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    I might pop to a parkrun in the morning, but if the weather is like it is at the moment, I won't be.

    Enjoying the European athletics, particularly the steeplechase, the fall in the men's heat looked brutal, the woman fall into the water jump less so and the men's winner getting DQ'd, hilarious. Think Sotomayor's WR might fall tonight if the weather is right.

    Have a good weekend everyone.

  • Winter early morning runs in Scotland are probably just dark, marrows.

  • WARNING – May contain metric units

    BRAT – Rowheath 5k

    The Rowheath 5k is part or the Warwickshire  County 5k Championship and Warwickshire Road Race League and as such attracts the cream of the Warwickshire Road Running Fraternity.  I prepared for the occasion by camping in the back garden with our eldest two.  They slept soundly: I slept little.  However, the suspected return of the hip flexor problems that had plagued my marathon training earlier this year made me determined to have a decent crack at it, then deal with the consequences afterwards. 

    Off work this week, so arrived in plenty of time.  Jogged a couple of miles and had a bit of a chat then lined up about two rows from the front.  The course comprises two laps along leafy south Birmingham Avenues surrounding Rowheath Park. The race set off down a moderate gradient and the initial pace was quick, but I decided to go with it.  Round the first corner and heard a commotion behind me.  I glanced back to see a TdF style pile up: Glad I was in front of that.

    After about 400m the course starts to rise again and continues to climb gently for about 1 mile.  Discipline was my watchword on this occasion, but I still found my pace drop a bit as I approached to top of the incline, but then we were back down the hill again for the second lap.

    Picking up the pace I came up behind a group of Bourneville Harriers running three abreast, Race for Life Style, so I nipped round a tree, hopped of the kerb (avoiding the parked cars) and went passed them as the road started to rise again.

    Thinking I only had a mile or so to go, and remembering what real lactate pain felt like from my track experiences of recent weeks, I resolved to push hard up the hill.  I passed quite a few people on the climb and still felt reasonably comfortable as the route levelled off for the final few hundred metres to the finish.

    Satisfied that I had run a good race, I was cruising when two chaps that I had taken on the hill blasted past.  With hindsight I recall the discussion we had (or maybe I’d heard it on the tv) about overtaking quickly.  If they’d eased past me, maybe I’d have gone with them and maybe sub 19 was a possibility.  But they went past fast and I thought..Nah and continued to cruise in to stop my watch on 19:05 (official results are still not published) with splits of 3:39, 4:02, 3:44, 3:47, 3:51 min/km.

    So all in all a satisfactory performance: I’m pleased that I managed to hold to the pace going uphill on the second lap; though a little disappointed that I let it drop so much on the first lap. Obviously the time is a big improvement on my previous pb (which, despite being fairly recent was quite soft due to my only 5k races being Leamington Parkrun, which is a bit of a bugger), but I felt that had I known how close I was to 19mins I might have pushed a bit harder over the last few hundred metres.

    Anyway, it ratchets up my VDOT up a notch and knocks a few seconds of my tempo pace for tomorrow morning.  Next up Godiva 5 miler on Wednesday and hopefully another decent pb.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Well done Lou, hopefully another pb Wednesday.

    I have finally succumbed to injury on my last run before a complete week off. Having got on top of the nerve niggles in my left leg, my slight strained right hip has seemingly made my quad work harder. 

    Working from home today, I did pump first thing then went out lunchtime for 75 min run. I could feel ity tightening as I progressed until in the end I had to try and cut run short. That wasn't easy and ended up doing 70 min. Outside top of thigh is now very sore and slightly bruised. I'm not scheduled to run again now until a week Monday so this may actually ensure I stick to plan.

    On a plus point, my switch to brooks glycerin seems to be working. Three runs in and my lower legs are far looser than they have been in ages. 

  • Well done of the Teversal race Bob; sounds like a cleverly run race to do just enough. When I read it initially, I thought the time was for 10k and gulped hard, perhaps even let out a slight wimper.  

    DT - sorry to hear your hip is giving you problems.  Do you know what the issue is?  When i had pain in the outside of my hip it was ITB tightness causing friction of the hip bursa.  This stretch sorted it out quick quickly:


    Is the scheduled week off due to holiday or something?

    I have my own slightly irritating hip issue.   I felt a slight niggle last weekend after a 30 mile bike so took a few days off in the run up to Rowheath.  No problem following the 5k so I did an easy 4 miles Thursday; still no problem.  Then I did an hour on the bike yesterday and it's feeling a bit sore today.  Seems like the cycling may be aggregating it, so I'll cut that out for a week or two and see how I go.

    Tommy - Have you made a decision about Godiva 5 next week?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Lou, yes it does feel like top of itb very stiff so will give that a go and some foam rolling. 

    Rest week is due to fact I have now done 13 weeks full on and was feeling knackered a week or two ago so put one in. This coming week works best as I'm on a stag weekend all next weekend plus childcare arrangements for week involve me transporting son to mother in laws and collecting him which cuts into my evening.

    Anyway......I've had a runny nose this last few days whilst running. I've woken this morning with a cold and slight cough so its kind of worked nicely. 

  • The thread seems to have gone into overdrive while I was away. Big congrats to rising superstar Lit and to Lou for the Ceres 8 win and the Rowheath 5k pb respectively. I would have loved to have been there Lou but was in the middle of my break. Good to see a fair few from the club made themselves noticed.

    Funny to see the thread turn to ice cream while away as I've been enjoying super sized cones of coffee ice cream daily. There were loads of flavours available but can't seem to get past the caffeine cravings. I've had 5 whole days of downtime which is the biggest break this year (barring illness) so it was with a bit of trepidation I set off for a run this morning in the heat. All ok, so off for my long run as soon as possible after touchdown tomorrow.

    Going back a bit further on the thread super sized congrats to Bob for his middle distance and club efforts, Skinny for the actual running miles and last but not least a pat on the back to Tommy for his selfless parkrun pacing last weekend image

    Marrows - Iron deficiency seems to be a big issue with runners. Heard it discussed at our club quite often. Glad it was sorted. I will look on at your half plans with interest as I have a similar schedule. Rough plan for me is to dig in with the steady miles and extend the long runs now all the 10k fun is over. I'll try to top that with a weekly quality session, nicked from the plans at the back of Pfitzinger's road racing book.

    DT - I can totally recommend Lou's stretches. Been doing them consistently since first itb issues last September. Combo of that and the glute exercises has seen me right.

    Lou, Tommy - I am doing the Godiva 5. I made a mistake re: the Little Aston 5 timing (can't do 31st now) so will do the Godiva race instead.
  • Marrows - HMs are not my thing, but going by what SG has Lit & Skinny doing a mixture of MP, HMP & LT tempos seem to make up the bulk of their quality sessions. I'd also include at least 2 or 3 VO2 Max sessions, particularly late in the piece, to keep your efficiency brushed up.

    Tommy - Yes, I've been enjoying the Europeans too, excellent viewing - good to see some great performances from the Brits. The steeplechaser sounds like a bit of an idiot in general, and also got what he deserved for the vest incident. Looked suitably chastened yesterday however, and wouldn't object to him picking up a medal in the 1500m tomorrow for a bit of redemption - provided it's not Charlie Grice or Chris O'hare who he denies a medal of course. I'm also deliriously in love with Dafne Schippers. image

    Good racing and good report, Lou. Sounds like there'd be more to come on a fast, flat one too. And it will be a while yet before I'm threatening 37:xx for a 10k! Current training just isn't geared towards these distances for a start - specific long runs have been ditched (one 10 miler since March) and I rarely go beyond 5 miles for a continuous run, though sometimes get to 7 or more when there's a mid-run session involved. Will settle for a very small PB at Shelton in October.

    Hard lines, DT. Hope you're not out of action too long. Be kind to yourself when you ease back into it!

    Hopefully the break will freshen you up nicely after a very hard month, Muddy. The ice cream sounds good, and that route looked a pleasant one on Connect. Not sure I'd fancy the long run after a flight tomorrow though!

    Easy 3 last night, and although it might have been a coincidence, the pleasing gains I had off the back of the previous one, meant I slotted in another leg speed session today bookended by some undulating easy running through the woods. Flying 100s again, and with the grass being drier than last time, traction was a bit better, and although I decided I'd had enough after 7 of them today (8 at 4:04 pace last time), the Garmin measured these at 3:54 mile pace. A rather more gentle junior parkrun in the morning.

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    Lou - nice report, sure you'll be on for sub 19 on a different course.

    Marrows - will be interested to see your HM plan, I'm broadly following (in the loosest sense of the word) one in Daniels, has quite a lot of threshold/hm paced work in the 3rd phase, which I'm in now.

    Bob - I think the 3000m guy has history for being a bit of tw@, (punched a mascot and had a fight with a team mate). Currently watching the men's marathon, quite exciting, the Polish athlete who's lead for ages just detonated and stepped of the course. Course looks a bit of a brute, Zurich is a beautiful city though.

    Funster - hope you had a good break.

    Lou/Funster - yes I'll be there on Wednesday, not decided if I'll race it or use it as a threshold session for the week. Will just enter on the day I think.

    12 miles cross country to my mums for a Sunday roast later today.  

  • marrowsmarrows ✭✭✭

    well-timed injury and cold DT! And welcome back Muddy (by the way I lied - all my PBs are post-iron-supplements - but the slower ones are from when legs had not yet had a chance to catch up with the blood)

    Marathon training plans are the only ones I've ever properly followed so I don't want this to be too much like marathon training.. err.. so what do you think? The idea would be to pad it out to about 50MPW with slow running/jogging.  I've run about 50MPW for the past few weeks with one or two quality thingummies per week.


     The mile cutdown is this: http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/36

    and Frank's golden 400s here, last paragraph: http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank72.html

    By '@5K' I mean 'at 5K race pace', etc.

  • That golden 400 session looks like a bit of a beast! Are all those Tuesday sessions 15 miles total?

    10 milez with 6@hmp has been a staple in the past. I've done some longer tempo runs like 10-12 steady, 5 easy 5mp 2hmp 1easy. Stuff like that.
  • marrowsmarrows ✭✭✭
    Yes 15 total which includes 8 mile commute then 6 with club.
  • Tommy - Re: Benabbad - indeed, had heard that. Didn't much care for his antics in the home straight today either, so having thought I'd be pleased to see his redemption, I did actually begrudge him it in the end. What a bonkers 1500m that was though - I can't understand how not a single athlete (men's 5000m wasn't that dissimilar either) decides it's worth a gamble on hitting the front and avoiding that sort of situation arising. Mystifying. Brilliant day for GB to cap a great champs though. Saw your parkrun time - thoughts?

    Marrows - To my untrained eye - plenty of variety in there, which is a good thing, but quite heavy on the quality - do you know from experience that you can swallow that sort of intensity? Guess you do have an age advantage over the rest of us old farts! image The half sessions sound like a good idea though, which at least keeps the volume down - and is something I've been doing this summer with my tougher sessions.

    The junior parkrun was aborted due to a young dicky tummy this morning, so had a gentle 5k jog out by myself instead. Back to the track sessions with Charnwood tomorrow, the Oxford Open meeting has been cancelled, so may well now slot in a parkrun on Saturday as my second quality session this week.

    Also had a bit of info from runbritain on how the handicap calculations work, and an additional command you can enter to reveal a bit more detail on your own data - if anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post up the details here. Through that, I can see for instance that if I can consolidate another 4 performances at the level of last Sunday's 800m that my handicap will drop to 2.7, and if Lou can do the same with his 5k, he'd be down to 5.3.

    Hours of stats fun. image

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    Bob - the mens 1500 was odd. To show how slow the early stages was I'm leading the race at 800 If compared to my 1500 pb this year. So if its slow enough for me to lead no wonder they bunched and kept falling over each other. And the 5000, most of the field that didnt win a medal have PBs 45 - 60 secs faster than they raced today.  It's mental they all slowed because mo wanted to blitz the last 400.  Just accept he will win regardless of tactics and race your own race. I know championship racing is different to PB racing but if you know you can't run a sub 58 last lap why race that way?

    are you still in for the cup final At stoke?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Lou- just to make sure....that stretch, the pressure and stretch goes into the leg going underneath?

    Bob, yes I'm interested in the geek stuff?

    I've been feeling pretty miserable today. Very little sleep last night due to catarrah and cough and throat now very rough. To compound things I was rushing up the stairs earlier and slipped and antagonised further my right hip/itb. Its gone backwards 48 hours. 

    Had a conversation with female friend last night. She is doing a marathon in 12 weeks weeks and is running about 25 miles a week and long run is up to 12. Her pb I'd 4.45 but can do sub 1.50 half. She was complaining how knackered she is all time. She's doing all her running at about 8.20 mm and swimming and doing gym work. I think I could have spent the entire night explaining the various school boy errors littered throughout the whole thing. 

  • Dean - Agree completely. I was doing similar comparisons with my own pace in the 5000m, and albeit flat out, I could have been leading that race after 2 laps. It took them until 3800m in before they picked it up inside my 800m pace in fact. As you say, many if not most of that field have PBs around or just over the 13:00 mark, a good 8 seconds per lap quicker than they were running - what exactly did they think Mo was going to do to them over the last 400?! Could understand Grice and O'Hare in the 1500 sitting in a bit, as they both have kicks, but even then, they could still have kicked off a far stronger pace that would have strung the field out a bit more and avoided the calamity that befell Grice. Have to say my sympathy for him was rather limited because of that. Re: the Cup Final - I should see our team manager at track training tonight so hope to get some sort of indication what she wants me to run at Stoke - based on our last exchange before she went on holiday, I'm still expecting to be involved. Would quite like a crack at another 800m, though it's a bit of an early start!

    Sounds like you're having a tough time, DT! image Re: suicidal training paces, I saw on Faceache, someone with injury problems and a recent HM PB pace of about 7:45/mile, arranging to go out for a 16 mile long run at 8:15 pace! image

  • Geekery wizardry from runbritain: -

    Performance degradation over time

    Any distance up to 5K degrades at the same rate - nothing 0-2 months, 0.1 per month 3-6 months, 0.2 per month 7-18, 0.5 thereafter. For 10K, nothing 0-4 months, 0.1 per month 5-8 months, 0.2 per month 9-18, 0.5 thereafter.

    Clever Stuff

    Not sure if you've seen it before but if you add "&debug=y" (without the quotes) to the end of the URL on your profile page you'll see the table of performances has several new columns which show how the handicap is calculated.

    "Basic" = conversion of the time over the distance to a number between about 36 and 0
    "MySSS" = what your performance calculates the race's SSS to be
    "SSS" = difficulty score, taking things like course difficulty, weather conditions, competitiveness of a race into account. Calculated using each runner's MySSS.
    "vSSS" = how you did in comparison to the rest of the field, the lower (more negative) the better
    "Net" = Basic - SSS.
    "TP" = a time factor. As time progresses, this TP number goes up and as a consequence a performance contributes less to your overall handicap, or effectively the performance becomes worse until a more recent performance takes its place (even if the more recent one has a worse "Net"). This is so the handicap is a representation of current form.
    "Adj" = Net + TP

    A runner's overall handicap score is then the average of their top 5 Adj scores.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    If I was a steady 5,000m runner without a fast finish (which I am) in that European 5,000m final (which I wasn't) I think I would have accepted that Mo would beat me, forget about him, and try to work out the best tactic for winning silver.  Surely some of those guys would have been better off making some sort of run for it 4/5 laps out?  OK, Mo might sit on your shoulder or even just speed up in front of you, but you're more likely to wear down your competition for the minor medals, surely?  Anyway what do I know, I still would've been lapped while they're all looking at each other!

    Marrows - I agree with Bob, some good sessions in there but it looks pretty heavy on quality to me, with running at either race pace or quicker, Tue/Thu/Sat each week.  MY HM training schedules would probably have one less interval session each week and an additional longish run.

    And it's interesting that people have picked up on the Horwill 400s session. I've attempted this precisely once, and in my humble opinion it's either nigh on impossible, or your 5k pace is way too soft!  I do think it's a good session in principle, i.e. a longish tempo run where you're alternating MP with a faster pace, but for that particular session I think it's more feasible to target around 10k/threshold.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    ...Our top coach was in fine name-dropping form the other day.  I was talking to him about Horwill's session, so he casually mentioned that he'd been talking to Tim Hutchings (bronze, 5,000, Euro and Commonwealth 1986) who was coached by Frank Horwill, but said he didn't run any of the actual sessions set by him because they were too bloody hard!  image

    Incidentally, this was just after I completed a 10 mile tempo run on the track, loosely based on the Horwill session but adapted for real-world completion capability: alternating 1 mile @ MP with 800m @ threshold.  That could be another one to add, if 40 laps of the track doesn't sound too loopy.  (My splits all hit within 2 seconds, so it is actually doable.)

  • Haha - Bob I think even my accountants brain can't be bothered with the calculation methods on RB!

    Marrows - if you survive it you'll definitely be faster after that lot! My weary old body wouldn't make week 2! I would only make one observation.

    Your plan is presumably to peak at your second HM? So are you going to really race the first HM two weeks earlier - I would think it unlikely that you will maximise your PB potential in race 2 following race 1 which makes race one your PB target?

    That being the case you are basically trying to survive 5 hard weeks training to peak for race 1, then simply keep the pot bubbling for race 2 and see what happens?

    Anyway like Bob says your just a young lassie so you can probably run as many races as you want and PB every time - unlike us old folks!

    As for me - I got DT's lurgy on Friday night (can you catch illness on an internet forum?), have got a big work meeting on Wednesday in Gemrany and am then off on the family holiday walking in the Lakes so the comeback will probably start all over again on 1st September (which sounds a good date for a restart). 

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    yes my observation was that it looked pretty tough, Marrows. However at 27 you are at your peak as a human being so give it a whirl if you think you can survive.

    Another night of limited sleep, and hip/itb now worse than it has been after yesterdays stumble. Will get a good round of stretches in lunchtime and have physio tomorrow so fingers crossed that will start to alleviate things. I have 27 days before startford 10k so need to get back to it soon for a few peak sessions.

    I'm not going to make thwe mistake i did in the winter though i keep training. I ended up with a fairly heavy cold for some 8 weeks.

    Bob- thanks for that, I will have a play later.

    Richard- sounds like an interesting run. That must surely have left you quite sore in the lower legs todays?


  • Hi Richard - cross post - well done (though you definitely need to practice tying your shoe laces!!) - nice negative splitimage, the wind is mental on the beaches.

    Are there full results anywhere?

    PS I din't realise you had done your parkrun PB at Carlisle the other week - I thought you were in Glasgow full time now.

  • marrowsmarrows ✭✭✭

    Half mara on sand sounds nightmarish, Richard! Well done.

    Dean - it looked like whenever someone tried to speed up at the front, Mo popped round ahead of them and then slowed down.  Maybe the same sudden acceleration that makes him so good over the last 600m means he can also pop round to the front more easily mid-race.  How would someone get past that to string it out from earlier on?  Do you need a team to box him in?!

    Thanks Bob & Phil for the feedback. It's only the 3rd week that had three full sessions - but still, here's a toned-down version.  Look more sensible?  Yes I noticed that 10 mile track session you did Phil and was awed! Horwill does say stop and walk if you can't keep the paces up for his 'golden' 400s.  What do you mean by 'longish'? Most of my runs are 8-10 miles because that is the distance of my commute (8M route is mostly too congested for anything fast).



  • marrowsmarrows ✭✭✭

    Ooo, cross-post. Skinny, the first HM is on a slightly hilly course and the morning after a friend's wedding; the second is a faster course (Oxford - anyone done it?) and that is the A race.  Is the gap big enough to race both of them?

  • Hello everyone. I am back from my sister's wedding in London, which was lovely and at which I ate lots of food and drank lots of champagne, wine and gin. I also took advantage of being in Hampstead to run to the heath on Saturday morning, swim in the Ladies' Pond and then run back to my hotel. Running after swimming is weird.

    Marrows - I'd just been thinking that plan looked a bit hardcore and wondering about the same things as Skinny. If it was me I wouldn't do the first HM at all, let alone try and race it. But I am old and cautious.

    Richard - well done. I think a beach HM sounds ace. But 1kg of flour is even more pointless than the ever-popular VLM kilo of rice. Also, I sent you a PM that you might not have noticed (unless you did notice but are ignoring me image)

  • Well done Richard – Clearly not a PB course, but sounded like you enjoyed the run. “Interesting” goodie bag.

    Marrows – You and Lit are training machines, but three/ two and a half sessions a week does seem a bit much so perhaps wise to be cautious.  Let us know how you get on the with Frank’s 400s.  It seems a bit pointless having a session that is so hard you are likely to need to stop for a walk.  PP’s option looks much more sensible.

     Lit – I’ve tried running to the swimming baths a couple of times, but my bag rubs on my neck.  That probably bothered me so much that I didn’t really notice what the running felt like.  Have you tried running after a hard bike ride?

    DT – You may need to push your pelvise forward to get the stretch one the outside of your hip (which is where I think it should be).  If you lean forward a bit the stretch is mostly in the obliques.  However, if it was aggravated by a stumble that doesn’t sound like a friction/bursa issue, unless you have it worse than I did.  Hopefully the physio will be able to identify the problem.

    Bob – thanks for the geekery.  I’ve not really paid much attention to the RB handicap before.  Probably because I don’t really know what it means.  This could open up a new realm of timewasting opportunity.

    Official time of 19:05 has been confirmed for last Wednesday.  Interesting to see a couple of Tipton chaps take the top two spots with 1st place in an impressive 14:59.

    Edit: New WAVA of 72.07% too.image

  • Wah, I'm not a 'training machine' Lou! I'm quite lazy. Not more than two sessions a week and only one (if that) if there was a race in the same week. Also I don't think I have ever been on a 'hard bike ride', so no. Though I did try out a new route to work today that had a steep hill in the middle. I didn't mind though because it was so pretty (and will be fun on the way home). Congratulations on the new WAVA!


  • Above updated for

    Bob 'getting' a team medal (I've seen the photoimage)

    Lou smashing his 5k PB by 45 secs leading to a bit of transposition on the Top Trumps Table, and getting the silver cell back immediately from Marrows and getting his WAVA above 70%.

    If two weekends ago belonged to Bob then this was Lou's weekend.


  • Marrows - In general I tend to look at other people's training and go 'cor that's tough'. I am not particularly risk averse (more lazy, though wish I was as lazy as Lit image) but I would be scared off your original plan at this stage in my development. The refined plan of yours seems much more palatable. So here are my rough ideas for comparison and comment and it will probably seem a little tame, I reckon.


    Some explanation - the club session tends to be a variable distance but generally is around an hour and a quarter with some warm up and maybe 3 or 4 miles of faster paced stuff in an interval format. Example sessions could be 5 x (0.4m uphill + 0.4m downhill) with 90 s recoveries, or 3 x 1.7m with 3 mins recovery. As I don't know the session in advance my plan is to exercise HM/MP paces in that slot, though I dare say I could support a hill rep VO2max style session and reserve the option to make  Saturday's session a bit less intense. Easy runs all supported by strides as with your case.

    Bob - Thanks for the RunBritain info. I tried the debug option and noticed there was a BO column that you didn't explain. Mine were all 0.0 because I use a neutral deodorant I think. A negative value is literally not to be sniffed at, while a positive value is pheromone-tastic but could lead to reduced race times image

    Richard - That sounds like really hard work (but good training material). I had to read the goody bag list twice. A bag of flour !? 

    Tommy - Cheers, break was good. I was asking CJ if he wants do the Godiva 5 race too - he is working in MK that day so it would be convenient for him and I think he was keen but he was having difficulties doing it through RunBritain. I assume on the night entry is quite feasible -  I saw last year they had a licence for 300 and 210 entrants.



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