Overdone it?

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    19.06 5k to 40.10 10k, I'd say there's a good min to come off that 10k first, unless Marrows is a short distance specialist?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Well done marrows....my top trump place is safe for now!!!

    That is definitely a slight anomoly re 5k and 10k, particularly as you have a decent marathon time in there. 

    Tommy- 5 runs a week. 2 x 40 min easy and a long run of 90 min. Routinely then only two heavy sessions.

    Muddy, thanks. I will get one booked in as soon as I can. I did spin on way home and leg is no better or worse which suggests its not muscular. 

  • Yeah sorry I did 2x 5k + 1 and came up with a completely different number. Must have been the malnourished state I was in. Anyway Marrows next race is a parkrun before the first half, so still hope she can improve the 19:06 there. We know nothing of the course or conditions tonight either image

    Cheers for the paces, they certainly tighten things up. There's a track nearby but frustratingly they are not open early mornings and after dusk, which are my non otherwise occupied hours. I am fairly light on non hilly routes but there are canals within warm up range I suppose.

    I agree completely that any training can be improved and especially mine even if I had some results already. I was doing the club sessions enthusiastically, which is what Pete alludes to, but only started considering the pace/volume mix on those sessions relatively recently as I tried to follow a 10k plan and folks on this thread set me straight.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Muddy- isn't fox hollies close to you? Failing that why not swing by Bromsgrove or Redditch on way home? They always seem to be open and in Redditch they don't seem interested in charging. 

  • DT - fox hollies is about 40 mins drive; weekday sessions on the way home are out in general but may be possible next week. I do the bedtime routine (except Tuesdays when we have a babysitter). Saturdays and most of Sundays are out as I'm looking after the little funster or doing family stuff. I get most of my running in early doors. It's all a bit tight on time unfortunately.

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    Nicely done marrows, that's a great result, particularly after your Channel crossing fun yesterday. Shame you didn't get a prize.

    DT - after a quick calculation, I guess you're doing around 35-40 miles per week and 11-12 miles of those are threshold pace over two sessions and sometimes squeezed into 5 days? I think that would be too much for me, I try do similar mileage but with one session, based on the guidelines in Daniels. Although I have started incorporating a steady pace run in place of an easy run following advice from the guys at Loughborough. If I remember rightly SG had Skinny doing one session per week, plus a long run off a total of 35 miles per week, which seemed to work for him. However your times are quicker than mine, so who knows what's right!  

    Muddy - I'm hoping that when I move house I'll be able to make use of 1 or 2 tracks which aren't currently that easy to get to, hopefully will make shorter stuff easier to judge / pace.

  • DT - Just to follow up on Tommy's comments, I was surprised to see you hit the spinning with a dodgy leg and a bad throat. I'm interested in how you and your coach view spinning and body pump in terms of their contribution to your training load - do you/coach treat them like easy running miles in terms of effort and hence you can support more harder running efforts off them ? 

     

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Tommy- yes I normally come in about 40m so yes about that at threshold. 

    With respect spinning/cycling, having one session a week in my schedule was my insistence as-

    1- I enjoy it.

    2- I've spent good money on a bike and/or David Lloyd membership and want to use it.

    It replaces a sixth run which would be another easy one. Whilst spin can be a hefty blast, the toll it puts the body under and how you feel after is like an easy run. If anything it flushes the legs nicely. 

    Body pump has recently also come as my own call. My schedule has two x 20-30 min strength and core work each week. I'm rubbish at motivating myself on that sort of thing and just found I was dodging the sessions whereas I knew if it were a pump class I would get it done.

    Re tonight.....I knew that I was not going to get anything else in until Monday with stag weekend and wanted a bit of activity together with testing how my leg would react re the nerve concept as oppose muscle injury. 

    To an extent I am looking to replicate my weekly routine that I had when I set my 10k and half pbs when my running was unstructured, but doing it with structured running instead if that makes sense. 

  • Ok I see, DT. My curiosity comes from me biting the bullet, taking things a bit more seriously, dropping the footy, and drawing up a plan for the autumn and committing to it, rather than  bumbling along, just seeing how I felt and trying to increase mileage as and when.

    However now I am doing the s&c work in preference to adding more weekly miles because I felt a bit fragile as the miles went up. Your body pump sounds a bit more strenuous than my 30 min lunchtime routine - what sort of stuff do you do in it ? I do the exercises prescribed by the physio. Some use a resistance band but most don't involve breaking sweat.

    For what it's worth a very experienced (and fast) runner I know who is now coaching advised as many threshold runs as I could tolerate many months ago when my mileage was around 20 per week but said to leave that to when I was capable of running 40 plus easy miles per week.

    Tommy - I missed the boat a bit with track access through July due to only doing easy stuff outside of races.

  • Godiva 5

    I was looking forward to this.  Over the course of the last week I‘d convinced myself that my recent performance at 5k was very comfortable and I should have no problem bettering it.  Plus I wouldn’t be racing after spending the night in a tent.  However, a day spent in a rather long and tedious meeting followed by a slow and tedious train journey, meant that when I arrived at the Memorial Park (in plenty of time) my enthusiasm had waned a little.

    I jogged over to the pavilion, spotted Tommy on the way, registered, changed, jogged back to drop my kit in the car then went back to try to find Tommy and Muddy.  No sign of them around so I did a lap of the part and my warmup routine, had a bit of a chat with a few people  and lined up, still unable to  Tommy again, or Muddy.

    Over the course of last week I’d managed to convince myself that last week’s 5k time was very comfortably  achieved so logic dictates that I should be able to improve on an equivalent performance if I tried a bit harder.  On this basis I set off with a target pace of 6:15 which would result in a time of 31:15.

    Anyway,  the race itself was fairly uneventful.  Plenty of dogs, kids, joggers and other obstacles to avoid and a fair breeze on the uphill sections (you know the sort of breeze that is virtually unperceivable  until you start running fast).  I ran the first mile or so with a clubmate, but he started to drift ahead through the middle mile.  I kept the string intact and passed him with about a mile to go, together with a K&D runner who I’d been exchanging position with for much of the race. 

    The last half mile includes a decent climb as the K&D runner kicked up the hill I tried to respond, but he gradually eased away.  I kept the effort up, though, as the course levelled off with a couple of hundred metres to the finish.

    Official time of 31:33 with splits of 6:12, 6:20, 6:26, 6:17 and 6:17, So a little bit off my A goal, but another big pb, a slight improvement on an equivalent time from last weeks 5k and a very slightly improved wava score.

    I spotted Tommy finishing shortly after I had and jogged back to the finish to finally meet him and introduced wife and family before I was dragged off by middle daughter to play on the playground, thus missing my cool down jog.  I find the Godiva race a bit disappointing.  Sphinx ac do a similar race a few weeks earlier and provide a table laden with cake and bananas.  The Godiva race is more expensive and no cake provided, so we stopped for chips on the way home.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Muddy, there's a big difference in what a weekly 5 a side game can do to the legs compared to a spin or cycle. 

    Body pump is a 10 track structured work out. With wu and CD you do quads, chest,back, triceps, biceps, hamstring and glutes, shoulders and abs. I keep my bar weight 10-20% lower than the few other men in there as I'm not looking to build muscle. Each track is about three mins. Now I'm used to it again its no particular toll and I know I'm getting my strength work in properly.

    Well done Lou. What particular factor do you credit this leap in fitness to? 

  • Muddy - My paces used to be all over the place when I would just do the sessions along whichever road I was running on but I've managed to narrow then down a lot by being more selective above where I do them. Canals are good and this is my choice if I do a session from work or while visiting my parents.

    One of Leamington's parks has an 800m 'cycle track' which is fairly level if a bit exposed on windy days.  I've also found a very slighty undulating street circuit which is almost exactly 1mile round without crossing a road and is good for tempo intervals.

    I still incorporate MP sessions into my normal gently undulating run routes, so pace varies a bit there.

    DT - I had recurring injury problems last year.  Although I think I did reasonable quality sessions with 1 tempo and 1 interval session of 3 miles each off about 30 - 40 mpw mileage, I think my problems came from cramming in extras like football, races and particularly doing long runs when tired.  My approach now is (not to play football, ever) that if I race or similar I will drop a Q session and if I miss a run then it is missed, I don't try to cram it all into half a week.  It seems to be working reasonably well, though I do have a suspicion that my right hip flexor is not quite right again today.

    Marrows - Well done marrows.  I just edged the 5k, but we could be sharing the 10k silver.

    Well done Tommy - a big chunk of your pb.  Good to meet you Wednesday.

  • Hurrah! Well done Marrows! No prizes is rubbish though.

    Good report Lou. Hope the playground was good. The start of the report sounded like you thought the Godiva 5 was also going to be 5k and were going to have some sort of comedy mid-race disillusionment.

    DT - there seem to be logical explanations for everything but I suppose the real issue is everyone on here thinks you've Overdone It and you don't but you are injured so something has gone wrong somewhere or you are just unlucky.

  • xpost DT - I don't see it as a leap.  Although the table updates may suggest that: most of my pbs are over a year old.  As I mentioned I had injury problems for a large part of the second half of last year and I've just not raced those distances whilst fully fit since then.  After Brighton I decided to ease off and rebuild a bit, so the improvement is just steady progress from stringing together a few months of uninterrupted training.

  • Sh1t - I haven't got time for big meetings with you lot - so I go to Germany for a meeting for a few days and come back to lots of discussion about training paces, discover I've bored my coach by being injured for so long and lots more table updates to do.

    To the questions about how my leg is about 100 posts back its okay but with the meeting in Germany and my walking holiday next week I have decided to do no planned running for these two weeks and will start again on 1st September.

    DT and your injury woes - its hard to disagree with what everyone else has said but with the exception of the Pilates Princess we've all suffered from time to time with injury so it certainly isn't easy to find the right balance. If I were you though I would read everyone's advice and observations with an open mind - as I know only too well your running certainly doesn't improve while you are injured.   

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Yes......I need to have a think. I felt I was getting the right balance with my run/non run structure plus my weekly mileage is down by about ten miles a week from what I've done in the 12 months previous, which is to help cope with higher intensity.

    I take the major error as being doing q1, q2 and long run often over Tuesday-friday due to other stuff blocking off weekends. After this weekend, with the exception if the odd few that side of things is a bit clearer going forward. 

    Thanks for the various thoughts though. I just need to get back moving to capitalise on what my recent Lt paces/Hr suggest ready for Stratford. 

    Footy- I keep getting asked if I fancy this and that.... I think (particularly not being a 20 something) its running suicide!

     

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I have a day off today and not going to stag do until 3 so managed to get appointment with local physio this morning to ask him to treat for nerve impingement. I can't get to see the one I've been seeing until next Tuesday now which is too long. 

  • /members/images/673230/Gallery/Capture_117.PNG

    Table updated for:-

    Lou adding another PB (coming in a flurry now) and also improving his WAVA by 0.02%)

    Tommy smashing his 5 mile PB and amazingly equalling his WAVA

    Marrows 10k time on no sleep after crossing the Channel dangling jelly babies and winning (I have given you a 'prize' for that as you won - I haven't been able to find your race to check your result - I thought it must be the Regents Park 10k but that says there are medals - anyway please update/confirm your time once known. This also shares silver cell now with Pete and I've corrected your 5k time by the missing second which didn't change your WAVA. You also move up to joint top of the 10k rankings in the Silver League. Lou and you need a smackdown!

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    Good report Lou, I wondered who'd won the tussle between you and the Knowle & Porridge runner. Good to meet you, hopefully the lack of cool down hasn't caused the hip flexor injury, your daughter was quite insistent on going to the playground so completely understandable!

    DT - I see training as one big experiment and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. For example, someone I know is following Daniels new training plan which has back-to-back mid week sessions and he's going great guns but I think I'd probably break after a couple of weeks of this. I still play 6 a side football most weeks but nowadays I'm fairly content to stay at the back, watch the young'uns run around like lunatics. I also nesh out of challenges a bit more than I used to do though to try and avoid injury...  

    Skinny - hope you had a good trip. Glad to hear the leg is ok.

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    Cheers Skinny, how would the tables look if they were ordered by 5mile time rather than 10k image?

  • Marrows - Marvellous effort that even with a perfect set up - but a particularly good result off the sleepless sea legs. Congrats on the win too.

    Nice report, Lou. Sounds like a good ding-dong between you, your clubmate and the Kenilworth runner - always helps drag your pace along at a good clip. You're getting a good clutch of racing together at a similar level off your more consistent training now, hopefully you might get something that you see yourself as a leap forward soon off the back of it.

    The paces debate is an interesting one, particularly as most of my 'quality' training will drop back to MP when I return to base training in a few weeks. According to McMillan, based on my 800m (2:21) he thinks MP should be 6:45/mile, but based on my (more appropriate distance but now out of date) 10k, he thinks it should be 7:07/mile. Suspect I'll start nearer the bottom end of the range and build from there according to feel as winter goes on.

    Some confusion over which age groups are doing which races on the Cup Final schedule at Stoke next week means I'm missing out, which is disappointing and potentially leaves me with 5 weeks between track races - not ideal at this point of the season. Now looking at the next proposed Oxford Open meeting on September 3rd for an 800m to plug the gap. Even more reason to give parkrun some hammer tomorrow morning now - think I'll use a run along the Trent from Wilford as an extended warmup and give Beeston a go.

  • In non running news (the only news I ever have!) my daughter did embarrassingly well in her GCSEs yesterday to the extent that Mrs Skinny couldn't ring her friends to find out how their children had done because it sounded like bragging.

    We celebrated by leaving her in the house alone and going and seeing the show Avenue Q at the local theatre (although this was agreed with her beforehand and she didn't mind). I had no idea what Avenue Q was but really enjoyed it - particularly the puppet sex!

  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭

    Puppet sex?? image.  Congratulations to young Ms Skinny.  She didn't get much of a celebration though, did she?  I hope you are treating her at the weekend!

  • I saw a play with puppet sex once. It was strangely realistic. Congratulations to mini Skinny! I think the celebratory tradition is to slip her a wad of cash and let her go and celebrate with her cool teen mates, rather than you having to actually hang around.

    This morning's session was slightly delayed by a couple more glasses of red wine than I'd intended and a late night - though I still think managing not to get home till midnight is reasonably impressive for St Andrews on a weeknight. It was 4x 1 mile at 10k pace with 800m steady recoveries, and as usual came out a touch fast (5:56) but this may have been due to some slight tailwind assistance and felt okay. I would not have wanted to do a fifth rep, however. Recoveries were at an average of 7:07 pace and felt okay because they were quite long. No buzzard attacks.

  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭

    My wife took one of our daughters to Paris and the other to New York to celebrate GCSEs. I got to stay home and look after the animals image.  We adopted your approach for A levels, lit.

    4 x 1.6k at 10k pace is pretty hardcore.  I once did 3 x 2k off 90s rest but have never managed it since improving my 10k pb back in March.  Also, I walk during recoveries.  Your "steady" recoveries are almost at my 5k pace image. Jealousy attack!

  • We are taking ours on a week long holiday in a cottage near Sellafield nuclear power station - what more could a 16 year old want?image

  • marrowsmarrows ✭✭✭

    SG - thanks for the zones! No I am not a short-distance specialist.  I got the 5K time out of marathon training (a week before VLM this year).

    Terrific news on the GCSE results Skinny! Maybe she'll do something naughty while out celebrating, and then she won't be so embarrassingly excellent.  And OK, I lied:  I did get a medal, but I can't eat it.  It's a nice little race and the toilets in particular are excellent.  My time was 40:13 so Lou's silver cell is safe for now.

    Not much to tell about the 10K: it was 3 flat tarmac laps around Regent's Park, total denivele 40m over the whole 10K, so a fast course, if a little twisty. Stiff breeze.  Multiple organisers hold races on the same course but they all have different ideas about how far apart the start and finish should be!  I went off too quick and reached 1K in 3:43, reined myself in and let go the two or three guys I was running with, and was on my own for the rest of the race.  I could tell from what spectators were saying that there wasn't anyone close behind, but think I kept pushing OK.  I got to the 4K marker in 15:4x and after that didn't want to waste precious microseconds looking at my watch!  Ooo, and I think I spotted Kodie Thompson (I'd noticed his name on the start list) - that ex-sprinter who started a thread a while ago saying he was after a sub 40. He thought he'd done it a few weeks ago and then it turned out the course was short. He came in yesterday at 42:xx.  I suspected 2nd lady wasn't really trying - long sleeves, fast-shaped, no sweat - had a chat and she was indeed just jogging round and is new to town so tried to recruit her for my club image

    7:07 pace 'recoveries' goodness me

  • /members/images/673230/Gallery/Capture_118.PNG

    Updated for Marrows losing out on her shared silver cell and 3 seconds following official results. Easy come, easy go.

  • I was told to do steady pace 'recoveries', I wasn't volunteering.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    bob - after a couple of track sessions since returning from holiday i have decided to draw a close to 2014 track season.  no chance of me getting fast enough before the season ends as im travelling to india and then china for work in sept. 

    I was suprised to see the vets cup final schedule, looks like they are consolidating a lot of the races, so you are either m35 or m50.  there is a M35 chap at our club who has raced every fixture in the league (i havent done one) who deserves to race ahead of me even if im a good chunk faster.  so im letting him choose what races he wants to do and i will fill in around the team.  probably means i will be on long jump or javelin.   What certainly wont be happening is my attempt at the league records so mr moorcroft will have to wait until 2015 to be knocked off that list!!image

     

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