Overdone it?

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  • Bob - next time you are by the seaside and it is windy go for a run along the beach when the tide is out - run straight into the wind for a mile (or more if you want), turn round and run in the opposite direction - you will discover that tailwinds definitely do existimage

  • image - I've just done something depressing.

    One of my really long term goals (a 5 year goal) which is so far away that I shouldn't even think about it because so many things might have happened by then that it is meaningless however......was to win the age category at the GCR when I am 50.

    So this year it was won with a 1:21:18 - now that is already bordering on the edge of reality for me but also I'm not stupid - I know that there will be lots of 45 year olds like me who think they can win age prizes when they get to 50 only to discover that there is a reason why 50 year old prize times are slower than 45 year old prize times - yep - older legs go slower.

    So I put 1:21:18 into WAVA with an age of 50 calculated, then changed the age to 45 to see what the equivalent time for me now would be - 1:17:58image

    This has two worrying elements and also implications for when I want to go marathon running. Up to now my improvements have hidden my aging but clearly time is short for me to get much faster. Also looks like I need to forget about this goal as I don't see me getting to sub 78 standard (if I change the age further to 30 a 78 min HM at 45 is equivalent to a sub 72 minute at 30).

    Also if I want to go sub 3 for a marathon I am really running out of time...........

    WAVA says that as a result of aging my HM time will be 43 seconds slower next year - so I have to get 43 secs faster to stand still.

    So I have Friday night in the house on my own - time to set out a long term plan and how I go about achieving it (I don't mean training plans).

  • imageimageimage - Bob, remember what I was saying about long posts..............

  • But Skinny, isn't WAVA based on a given performance as a percentage of the best performance by an athlete in that age group? That would just mean that the world record for a V50 was a certain amount slower than the world record for a V45. It doesn't actually tell you how much the average runner would expect to slow down with age or take into account all the factors that would lead him to do so. It just allows people to compare themselves to all other runners of the same age. A synchronic rather than diachronic analysis, if you want to be all fancy.

    I would expect you to get faster as you get older because you will have spent more time training. You wouldn't have been running the times you do now as a V40 because you hadn't done any training. Now go and look up the WAVA equivalent for 40.

  • Of course I should get faster due to my training but the exercise I have just done gives the best indication I can get of how I am swimming against the tide and I need to think hard about how I use the next few years. For example 50 is going to be too old for my first marathon but at 45 my body is currently not robust enough to stand the training and that's only going to get harder - so I need to start things like yoga probably to try and help.

    I think it is reasonable to assume that the world record pace for each age is an estimation of the effect of aging on performance.

    Just because I watch UniChall does not mean I have a clue what synchronic and diachronic mean!image

     

     

  • I think it is reasonable to assume that the world record pace for each age is an estimation of the effect of aging on performance.

    For elite athletes, possibly. But also possibly not, because you'd need to look at things like whether those runners were in decline after a long career, or whether they'd picked it up later in life (perhaps after doing another sport). Whether the same people are still the fastest when they reach each age category, etc.

    (diachronic: studies how something changes over time; synchronic: studies a cross-section of how things are now. I'm claiming that WAVA is just a useful way of comparing all the 45 year olds there are at the moment, rather than a study of how a lot of people's capabilities change over time).

  • Okay - anyway, I'm definitely getting older and I definitely need to work out how I can do more training without my body breaking down so yoga classes sound a good place to start!image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Skinny, WAVA does a job in a light hearted handicap fun sort of way,

    Like Lit said you'll probably still be on an improvement curve by 50, so you won't show the same slow down rate that their calculations show.

    one of the things I don't like with Wava is when you get someone who started very late and they get good, and they fool themselves with what they supposedly could have done at 18-25!

    Especially when they gave a WAVA in the 90%s...they most likely would not have been world class!!

  • I think everyone should do pilates.

  • Skinny it is possible that you might be over thinking this.  I think Stevie is right on the improvement curve thing.  But part of the advantage of being a bit older is that you will train smarter and not just razz about, thinking you know it all, being inefficient and potentially damaging with your training.  I think that counts for a lot.  

    Anyway, you can't change the fact that you are getting older but good that you are looking at things to mitigate the effects.  I've never done pilates but used to do yoga regularly and used it a lot when pregnant.  Now I just tend to do it when back feeling a bit creaky and it does sort me out. 

    We could put our WAVA's on the s/sheet underneath the actual times for interest.  

  • Skinny it is possible that you might be over thinking this.


    Hahahahaha.

  • image stomps off in a huff! image

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    Skinny - look at Martin Rees...

  • Is he good at yoga?

    Lou - was the answer boxing then?

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Ooh, literatin taught me a new word!  image

    Just to add to the WAVA thing... exercise physiology guru Mr Noakes makes the important point that age category records tend to be held by runners who start their "careers" later in life.  This is partly because the genuine elites have less motivation to continue training at the very highest level once they've peaked, but it also highlights the fact that you can expect to see cumulative improvements for a number of years after starting proper training before the performance plateau and ageing catch up with you.  So you will be able to keep improving your WAVA score a fair bit beyond the point where your actual times start falling off.

    I'm still getting quicker (just about) after seven years of regular running, although that's partly because I've spent best part of two years of that time being bloody injured.  image

     

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    Not sure if he's good at yoga but he's certainly good at running and is a good example of one of the athletes described by Dr Noakes (thanks Phil).

    http://m.athleticsweekly.com/coaching/how-they-train-martin-rees/

     

  • Intersting article Tiommy - I was particularly struck by how closely hi early running career mirrored my own:

    The Welshman says: “I started running in 1990 at the age of 37 (38 for me) when a mate of mine I used to run with at school 20 years previously asked me if l’d like to run with him in a local 10km (Regency 10 k) at Cornelly in South Wales. It took him two months to persuade me to run and I reluctantly went along after hardly any training and we both ran 44 minutes (44:52 after a bit of training) .

    “We both really enjoyed the run and then we started limited training going out for runs of 30 minutes about four times a week. (check) It was another mate at work, who ran for Neath Harriers, who saw we were interested in running and asked us if we would like to come along and join in with them.( joined club - check)”

    From then on they started doing longer (check) runs at the club and after a while began doing some harder sessions on a Tuesday evening (check). This was something completely foreign to them, running at a much faster pace and as Rees adds: “I was always at the back end of the group in the first couple of weeks, but I enjoyed it and within six months I had slowly progressed to move my way to the front of the group. After about 12-18 months I became their quickest runner and held all the club records!”  Ah! This is where I've gone wrong so far - I need to smash all those club records.

    Anyway skinny, it looks like you have few options: Accept the inevitable; prolong the decline by taking regular breaks due to injury; or 70mile weeks with 4x1mile at 5:20 pace.

    The answer was boxing by the way.

  • Well done Lit - when I read your answer yesterday it rang a bell but would never have got it myself (I think its something to do with the scoring isn't it - the judges need to be able to see where the punches are landing)

    Tommy - Martin Rees looks like a running legend and I picked up that '12-18 months club records' thing too Lou - obviously had a lot of hidden talent waiting to burst out.

    From a running perspective though PhilPub remains 'My Hero' (or is that Lit)!image

    http://darkroom.sundayworld.com/original/f8fdaefd603a09841e90db04b8396fca:565edb06ba384498b836235492a46b1e

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Hahaa! 

     "prolong the decline by taking regular breaks due to injury" - yeah, this has to be the way forward.  I'd just get some pliers out on your ITB or something.  Once it heals I guarantee you'll still be hitting PBs in 2019!

    image

  • Skinny - or...

    http://oi40.tinypic.com/jz8a5t.jpg

    Back with something more sensible / constructive later! 

     

  • imageVery clever!

    Presumably you thought about doing the same with Lit's head but nobody would have been able to tell!image

  • They would! I would have had a fetching hairband on.

  • My mug of green tea is now sprayed all over my desk and monitor!!!

  • My word Bob, your photoshop skills are breathtaking.  Have you ever considered a career change?  

  • Maybe that is his career!

  • McF - Re: pacing by effort - agreed. Given the wind, I was happy to let 5k pace become 10k pace, I was just surprised that even 10k pace seemed to be quite such hard work! And because the reps were so short, by the time I thought, bloody hell I'm still too working too hard here, the 1/2 mile was all but done...thank goodness!

    Skinny - Re: rattling on - 'tis a fair point...as this will no doubt prove once more. imageWill try what you suggest regarding tailwinds along the seafront in the Canaries in a few weeks. image Agree with some of the other comments re: ageing. 'Nowt you can do about it, so just roll with it but see how much you can defy it and take your motivation where you can along the way. I'm still some way off competing for prizes, and perhaps I'll never get there, but as well as knocking absolute times down, I've got a spready that charts WAVA progression since I started running. For example, at the 1st Jan of this year it sat at 55.89% for a 24:35 parkrun 5k, by the end of July, my 19:47 at Newstead 5k had boosted that to 70.04%, and my recent 5:12.89 for the 1500m at Lincoln took it to its current high of 70.65%. Whenever I get frustrated (quite regularly at the moment) at the slowing of absolute time progressions recently, I open up the spreadsheet and remind myself where I've come from in 9 months. This, along with the progress of my RB Handicap (19 to 7.7 across the same period) tends to cheer me up, and keeps the motivation levels simmering away where I want them to be. From what I've read, absolute gains can continue to be made despite the ageing progress over several years of 'proper' training for latecomers such as us, and whilst it seems like a long way off, perhaps my ultimate aim is to see just how far up the rankings I can be when I hit the V50 age group, though would like to think I'll have unlocked a fair percentage of my potential by the time I get to V45 in early 2016.

    Richard - Excellent prioritisation there! image

    Tommy - Ah yes, the article that celebrates the remarkable Martin Rees...with a picture of him dribbling down his chin! Lou - get that dribbling sorted out and I'm sure you'll soon be smashing out new club records.

    McF and Lou - Sarcy bleeders! And sorry, Lit - all meant in the right spirit as I'm sure you're aware. image

  • I might have to triall the 'hairclips like a 10-year-old' running look. But that's not going to keep my ears warm in winter. Or make my face look any less stupid. image

    On a more positive note, I expect to be much speedier by the time I am a V35 in 2017. image

  • Cold and dark that time of year, I'd think, Richard.

    Should be lovely though actually - loads of beautiful places to run in the Derbyshire Dales. And that will concentrate most of the thread in the midlands area  - we can have a big thread party without Skinny. image

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