Overdone it?

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  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Not to get all Monty Python's Yorkshiremen on you, but I wish I'd had a lunch break (today) :( 

    Hello darkness my old friend.
  • macemace ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Kevin's session reminds me of an ex clubmate who has completed numerous marathons in 3:0x .... he targets sub3 and goes out at 5:40 pace for a mile trying to bank time  :o
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muddy, i see your point and whilst i dont know where Kevin is based,  i didnt notice a great deal of wind yesterday whilst running and if there was some I'd be surprised if it was close to Sundays. 
  • If Kevin lives nearer to me than to you, DT, it was pretty windy yesterday in the east of Scotland.
  • I would guess if Kevin is doing the Allo'Allo half he will be closer to Lit than to you,, DT. 

    Adjusting ones training session for wind is a tricky business. If you want to work off pace McMillan has some recommendations for pace adjustments here: 

    https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/how-to-adjust-your-workouts-for-an-off-day/

  • The way we adjust our sessions for wind is that the coaches make us start from the 200m line so they can stand at the more sheltered side of the track!
  • macemace ✭✭✭
    What is this 'session' thing you speak of ? 

    8.5 last night with my 2.36 mara pal

    I have some non-running news, i'm going to be a Dad again .... to a fawn pug, currently 10 days old  <3
  • MadbeeMadbee ✭✭✭
    Pictures, Mace, pictures!!  Of the puppy, not your speedy pal.
  • Are you sure that's non-running news Mace ? They're lively those pugs ! :P 
  • Pugs!!!

    My wife and I have been wanting one for ages but currently in the middle of house renovations.  We also both work full-time so feel a little selfish about leaving them at home for long hours during the day.
  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭

    Thanks all for the feedback, getting the pace right at the start of these sessions is definitely key to me progressing. it was windy on Monday for the last couple of miles but still quite a variance from mile 1-5. I have a club session tomorrow 9mls, what would you suggest I do. I really want to get better and this running lark and with your advice/frustration/ maybe I can progress this year.

    Madbee, 4 runs per week Monday and Thursday approx 9mls each with 4-5mls of continuous strides  blushWednesday easy pace 7mls and Saturday long run 13-15mls easy pace.

    Sorry for hogging the forum but hey at least you can get a laugh at my pacing.


    DT 12mls during lunch, nice lunch break...

  • Kevin - 9m easy conversational effort. You've done your hard work for this week.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    12 is nothing, in my old job I got as far as 17.
  • DavidHaydon83DavidHaydon83 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    9-10 would be the most I could get away with without raising any eyebrows.  This generally happens on a Friday when bosses are away.

    Quick question, with around 10 weeks to go until the LLHM is there anything different I should be doing in my training?  I'm up to almost 40 miles per week and the week after next will be a lower mileage week.  I have been loosely following (blatantly copying) DT on some of his quality sessions.  

    Do I continue as I am for now but look at aiming for those 3 x 2m or 2 x 3m sessions @ HMP?  Should I build in another quality session but without the intensity?

    Regarding taper?  Does this happen on the week of the race or two weeks prior?

    Thanks.


  • David, I would look at two blocks of 4 weeks, which allows for 2 weeks of taper and cutback at the end of each block. The sessions in each block ideally should progress from the previous block in difficulty but not necessarily by a lot for you, as DTs sessions are pretty hard (I wouldn't do them). You could try a parkrun or 5k time trial this weekend and then decide if you want to adjust paces for the next two blocks. Then consider how you feel as you go - 10 weeks is a fairly long time and you may feel quite different in 4 weeks time locking in at this higher mileage.

    Taper is pretty individual. I like to overload the week before my fortnight taper, so may either race a shorter distance or run two sessions and generally lift the paces slightly. As I don't do a high volume in the first case, I don't cut volume that much but I run very easy and go to one short session in each week. In your case as it's the first time being up at this mileage you could perhaps do 30 miles then 20 miles in race week - including the race. What have you done before and how did it feel ?
  • That's helpful - thanks.   I'll keep an eye on the mileage and see how I'm feeling in that case and just crack on with what I'm doing.  I'll look to do the harder sessions in the second block and use the first block to work up to them.  I'd like to throw in a couple of 10k races if at all possible?  

    This will be my first race (other than the monthly 5ks) since the Brighton marathon back in April '14.  I have since had my eyes opened to training and now realise I didn't do anywhere near enough mileage.  Looking back at the race I have no idea how we got through it.  Sheer determination I guess.  I am liking the idea of only 20 miles in race week including the race!

    Cheers muddy.


  • I think a 10k race is ideal at the end of your second block before the taper and will be a really good toe in the water and strenuous workout before the half. Any other time in the first block should be ok for another one, so long as it replaces a session, and you move the session the following week as far from the race as you can.
  • MadbeeMadbee ✭✭✭
    Kevin, hmm, ok - that sounds reasonably sensible as long as your easy pace really is easy!  I'd actually probably make Monday or Thursday a more focused effort, probably every other week - so a tempo or interval run.  I believe it's entirely possible to get faster just by running a lot of easy miles, but if you put a bit of a specific session in then you can make your easy runs really easy and still sharpen up.  So I'd do something like Monday: 9 miles with 4 at threshold pace (I work this out about 7:15-7:20 a mile for your planned half pace), probably 2 x 2 miles looking at this week's run. Or a few miles at MP or HMP. Then Wednesday 5-6 very easy, Thursday do your 9 with a few strides (P&D would have you doing about 8 x 100m strides in a 9 mile run, so probably less than you've been doing?), Saturday long run no faster than 8:30 per mile.  One quality workout, nail the pace properly throughout, and make the rest very easy.  It's subtle tweaks, but I think you'd see a difference, I certainly have.

    David, agree with Muddy, it's good to have a couple of races in, if only for the sake of a good training run with a boost from other people being around.  Upping mileage can make you feel terrible for a while, but when you then cut back for the taper weeks you start to feel amazing and realise it works... 

    I am really looking forward to starting a new job working from home where I can pop out for an MLR at lunchtime... Can't manage more than 4-5 miles at the moment.
  • Thanks Madbee :smile:   I think I need to restructure my weeks.  I think I'd benefit from having my quality session earlier on in the week and not so close to my long runs.  

    Good luck with the new job!

  • Morning all,

    0,7,7,10 so far this week.  Managed a rather hard 2m @ HMP, 1m @ 10k x 2 yesterday.  A slightly easier version of one of DT's sessions.  No way I could have done 3m @ HMP each time.  Glad I didn't try.

    3 or 4m easy planned today to shake off yesterday's session.  Long run at the weekend.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Good session, David. Yes my session was a big session but it was also a peak session at the end of a 12 week training block which I had progressed through to completing.

    Tempo session for me over lunch with 2 x 3 miles off 1 mile at 6.30-6.40 pace.

  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭

    David good session, i will keep that one in mind, DT you put in some quality training runs.

    Club session last night 8.5mls run. Long run tomorrow.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Kevin, thanks. This is a slight change in approach for me since November. For a couple of years my focus has been on easy miles with a staple weekly session of 5-6 miles at mp and a regular amount of racing to make up for the rest.

    My mileage is now a little less but I am doing two big sessions a week. Everything else I do in between is at 8-9mm pace though.

    Whether it makes any difference remains to be seen as yet, however it has broken up something that was becoming a rather monotonous cycle.

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Morning, 

    Sounds like tough conditions at Brass Monkey but decent performances all round, even if DT was a bit disappointed with his time. Excellent to see Madbee back!

    Mace - congratulations!

    Decent look session David - I still maintain you're going to smash your half marathon target time. 

    Kevin - some good advice for you from above. Bit of consistency and race practice will certainly help. 

    XC for me last Saturday (with a gentle parkun in the morning to warm up) went reasonably well, it was my slowest time for the event for 4 years but the course was slightly different this year coming in closer to 11k rather than 10. It was very runnable with quite a few sections on compacted paths rather than XC and I kept all my mile splits within 10 seconds of each other which is quite unusual for XC. The most amazing thing about the race was a bloke I was racing against was wearing a pair of the magic Nike shoes, he'd pull away on the compacted paths but then I went past him on the grass and hills. Managed to keep ahead of my club mate which was the main aim.

    Sunday morning I was volunteering at the XC we host which was much more pleasant than doing the double header many people were doing. Mr Nike magic soes was there again, he did the first lap in the Nike's, then stepped off the course and swapped them for some fell shoes! Most bizarre. 

    Having to move my runs about this week, so ended up doing the Midweek 1 mile and 5K race in Derby on Wednesday night. Gave the mile a reasonable go, finishing in 5:30 odd which is about 10 seconds down on my last effort there a year ago but happy enough as I've had an annoying cough/cold for about 10 days. Ran the 5K race at ~MP to make it a vaguely marathon specific training. 

    Last night was a hilly 16 miler with a few club mates, it was bloody cold but good fun. Although my knee/shin was giving me a bit of gyp afterwards. Hopefully nothing to worry about and just a result of doing a hilly long run the day after a race.

    Good luck to anyone racing or running around a park this weekend.      

  • macemace ✭✭✭
    Madbee said:
    Pictures, Mace, pictures!!  Of the puppy, not your speedy pal.

    Madbee !!! That's a bloody good time off little training, i'm nowhere near that. But i'm fat and lazy so it's hardly surprising.

    I don't have any pics at the moment but will get some this weekend hopefully ...

    Tommy - some good stuff in there 


    Most i've ever managed in a 'lunch' break was 15


    My mojo left me over Xmas but i seem to have got it back


    3&5-8.5-6-6-5  .... target 50
  • Hope you're right Tommy! :smiley:   Good XC'ing and mile time.  


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Sounds like you've been busy, Tommy.

    I cannot imagine why someone would want to wear vaporflys doing that. Completely setting aside the cost of them and the relative delicate nature of them, over that terrain they would be hugely counter productive to performance.

    10 miles over lunch with a tempo in the middle of 3 miles tempo- 1 easy- 3 tempo. The tempo miles came out 6.40, 6.36 and 6.35 followed by 6.33, 6.34 and 6.33. It was quite windy in 1 direction around the racecourse and due to my starting point I don't think I managed a complete mile that wasn't for some part straight into the wind.

  • Madbee!  Great to see you, that's a great time!  

    Nice to see Tommy is packing the races in as well.  

    Congrats on impending fur baby pugfatherhood, Mace.

    Nice session, DT. 

    Kevin - I think everyone has given good advice on the tempo but one thing that has always stuck with me is that for every second you go over pace in the first part of the race (or session) you pay double (or more) on the back end.  There is no such thing as banking time.  If the first mile doesn't feel ok, you've probably overcooked.  

    Our club hosted XC last weekend and it was an absolute beast.  Google Burton Dasset hills.  Hilly races are not my natural forte and expected to hate it, but actually liked it more than I thought I would.  Had a bit of a race with someone from another club which always helps. 

    I did 12 the following day (tired), then 11, off, 4 recovery, 10 with 5 at LT (7:27 ave on an undulating route), off today and tomorrow will be 18 which will be my longest run since the last time I ran a marathon in 2016. Will see how my legs cope with that.  I shall have to channel Jasmin Paris when I get tired.  

    Have great weekends everyone!  
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