Overdone it?

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  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭
    Fantastic to read some race reports again!  Superb performances from both DT and Skinny and richly deserved.
    I'm keeping on keeping on and have managed a couple of 50km weeks recently.  Also beginning to feel a bit stronger on hills, which really opens up some new routes for me to keep things fresh.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Dorney Lake marathon

    This is essentially the culmination of two training blocks interspersed by some significant time out from March-July last year with a stress fracture.

    I’d got myself in pretty good shape for London 2020 when injury and then COVID struck. With no real running March-June, as soon as I could I got myself training on the turbo I did. I started running tentatively early July, built up through August and was back to what would be considered normal training in September. I was pretty surprised how fast fitness not only returned, but then surpassed previous levels. I was doing nothing differently at all, except weight loss.

    In November I entered Dorney Mara and at that time races were happening and it seemed fairly probable it would go ahead. In December I took a late opportunity to run the MK half as I wanted to get a gauge of fitness. That went very well, on a difficult course, with a 90s pb. That was to be possibly the last racing weekend before lockdown.

    I continued to marathon train over winter, getting lighter and faster. At times it wasn’t easy knowing and being told by all commentators that the prospect of Dorney going ahead was virtually zero. However I was enjoying the process and my view was that providing I didn’t get injured, the worst that happens was the race was cancelled and I was fitter. Highlights over that period involve twice beating my 10m pb just on my routine Friday tempo run and a 10k TT in 36.11 smashing my 10k and 5m pb’s and smashing through sub 18 for 5k.

    In early March the Government tossed out a glimmer of hope with their announcement that organised sports could commence on 29th March. It still took UKA another 3 weeks to get things straight and I finally had confirmation the race was on just 9 days out.

    I got through taper week with only having to deal with the onset of 4 minor ailments/niggles which was quite reasonable. I had also been permitted by the organisers to change to the 11am start (3-4 hour runners) from the 9am start (sub 3) due to my 100m journey. This did cause me some concern as I was putting myself in a position whereby a solo TT was increasingly likely. But then I do all my training solo and on balance this was preferable to a 5am start to get there for 9am. They also allowed my wife to be a marshal for a few hours to enable her to drive me there and back and get around the ‘no spectator’ rules, so I can’t fault how accommodating the organiser was.

    The other point of issue was then settling on what mara pace was, in the absence of proper tune up races. It is sometimes all too easy to misread a 10 m training run as being sustainable over a marathon and having had two bad marathons I have a high degree of respect for the event. Ultimately my goal was to run under 2.55, beyond that was a bonus and I would look to use this as a platform later in the year in London. I carried out some research via Strava and was quite aware that my garmin would log this course as 26.40m Therefore my pace planning was around this distance. It meant I needed an average pace of 6.37mm, which frankly didn’t seem too much of an ask. I decided that I would start off 6.40’s and slowly eat into it so as to pass half way at 6.37 pace. I would then hold steady a bit longer then at 16m, it’s just a normal weekly 10m tempo so we go from there and wind it up. That was plan A at least!

    Arriving on race day conditions were reasonable. It was overcast and around 7c. Whilst I wouldn’t call it windy, it was breezy. You can’t really expect to run around a location like this and there not be some wind. The set up was good with the 9am and 10am starts underway which meant that there was only the 11am start folk hanging around and using toilets etc so no pre-race dramas. I got myself ready and was troubled by some mild stomach ache, which I put down to nerves and that did disappear as soon as we got going.

    I got myself to my pen about 10.55 and a couple of other lads came along, but it was difficult to know if they were deferred from the 9am start or were sub 3 hopefuls. I decided I didn’t need to know as I had my plan in place. Just on 11am they took us to the start line. This was kind of a bit random in that we were stood facing the start and told ‘there you go, start when you want’. It was a case of making your own decision as to when the pain and suffering ought to begin. Much like when I am preparing to start an interval session, it was a matter of the sooner I start the sooner it’s done, so I just got myself going.

    The course comprises of 4 full loops in a horseshoe manner, each being about 6.5m. Each full loop is also broken into 4 so that you run down one side, loop around the bottom, run back up the same side, run right around the top passed the start/finish area and back down and up the opposite side. I prepared myself well for this as for the last 8 weeks or so I have done all my tempos on a 1.2m loop, running multiple loops on a 10 miler.

    We set off towards the far side of the lake going over the bridge with the Olympic rings. What I didn’t know at the time until I had done a full loop was this was the harder of the two sides and of that particular side, the running downwards was to be the hardest part. The reason being was that on this side the wind had a chance to whip up a bit more force coming straight off the lake and the down portion was also raised a few feet above lake level making it the perfect height to feel the cross wind. Coming back up was closer to lake level so didn’t feel quite as exposed to the wind. On the opposing side the run down was at lake level and was quite well covered as it was quite a bit below the open area with a reasonably sized banking up to the return path. In addition on this side there was tree cover immediately before the lake and no lake to allow the wind to sweep off. So in essence what I ended up with was what I soon learnt to call the ‘hard side’ and the ‘easy side’.

    Anyway, back to the race…. I set off at the front of my start and then after about 200m a tall lad in a green vest came by me and went off ahead of me. I thought to myself, I wonder if we’ll meet again in the latter stages!! The nature of the course being up and down, you got to have a permanent check on where folk were compared to you as the race developed.

    The first few miles were pretty crap. I was struggling to run at 6.40s anywhere near as easy as in training. Of course as this stage I didn’t know I was running the hardest part of the course. There were quite a few people still on the course as well at this time as all the 9am sub 3 starters were still there. I persevered but after a few miles the demons were kicking it, ‘it’s OK you haven’t had a bad mara for a while’, ‘they can’t all be winners’ etc. I genuinely feared the worst. Then I thought back to London 2019 when the first 8 or so miles felt like a trudge and that sort of lifted me a bit. The first few miles crept by in 6.44, 6.37 and 6.38. By this point I was running back up the hard side and I realised this part wasn’t as hard. I also noted that my average pace was already at 6.40mm and was right on target.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I noted that green vest had opened up a reasonable gap between us at an early stage and at about 4m a guy in a black vest came through and passed me. Again, I wondered what would become!!!

    As I came up and into the otherside of the loop things became easier again and I started to get my bounce with a 6.37, 6.34, 6.34 and a 6.39 essentially completing the first full loop. I also got a gel down at 5 miles. By this point the demons had passed and still not feeling as good as I had hoped (I think there is possibly a misconception with marathons that you ought to feel completely untouched by the pace in the first half or you are in trouble), the pace was feeling pretty easy now and if anything I was working to keep a lid on it.

    I would also add that mentally it didn’t feel like I was running a marathon as I was not counting to 26. After loop 1 it was very much a matter of counting down from 3. It was a bit disconcerting early on seeing mile markers for mile 25 when you are only 3 in but you get over that.

    Onto lap 2 and the miles kept ticking over, albeit I remained cautious however a systems check at certain points versus loop 1 and if anything I was feeling better than the same stage in loop 1 so my thoughts turned to ‘if I feel like this at this point in loop 3 then it’s on’. By this point green vest and black best were out of sight to the extent I didn’t really register them, albeit that by about 10m I noted they were both working together so black had caught green.

    At 7m I tried to take a revvies caffeine strip, however the work involved in opening it offset the benefit so I knocked those on the head after the first one. The next few miles just ticked by, there’s not much I can say about running up and down  in straight lines then around the top of a lake. They came in 6.39, 6.34, 6.37 and 6.35. By this point average pace was at the desired 6.37mm. I took my second gel at 11m and was well into the second loop and starting to believe this was going to end in something big.  I recall checking my watch at 13.15m and it had just ticked over to 1.27.00 so taking half way at 13.20 I probably made that in 1.27.20 with average pace smack on 6.37, with a 6.29 (slight panic I’d gone too fast) and a 6.37 to end the first half. A quick systems check and it was very much time to let the reigns go a little and see what came. I started a thought process along the lines of ‘that doesn’t give me much scope if I slow down latterly, I really need more in the bank’, then the newer marathon running version of me steps in and says ‘don’t be so ridiculous, we aren’t slowing down, we are going faster now’. I basically put all my money on my ability to negative split.

    As I make my way through lap 3 running down towards the bottom of the hardest part suddenly green/black vest appear to be coming back to me. At the turnabout point at the bottom the loop, (about 15m) I can see they are much closer to me and this is like a red rag to a bull, it almost drives me with energy, the thought that my race plan is going to work better than theirs. I take another gel at 15m and I can feel the boost from this.

    The next few miles, a noticeable creeping of pace is evident from my halfway decision with a 6.32, 6.30, 6.31 and a 6.30.

    On to mile 18 and I catch green/black vest. By this point black vest has already started dropping off green, he looks tired. I sit behind green vest for a bit as he’s about 6,3 however it’s slowing me down so I pull alongside him. He doesn’t want me to pass him and go off into the distance but he can’t do much about it. I think that brief period of ‘racing’ really engaged me and I feel like I am in a race now as I want to show the two of them how to run a marathon and I want to put as much between us as possible. At this point I am feeling the best I have all day and I know it’s just 8m at mara pace, something I do every Friday lunchtime.

    I am also cautious though as I know one hiccup could derail the whole thing so I am still telling myself, let’s just get to 20 then go. Miles 18 and 19 are the start of a consistent period of sub 6.30s with a 6.28 and a 6.23. A final gel at 20 and I’m ready for the last 6.

    The course was much clearer now as many of the 9am and 10am starters are done and also the wind seems to have dropped off. At 20 I continue to urge myself to show control to 22 then we go for it. Miles 20 and 21 come in at 6.25 and 6.28 and I am having the run of my life and I know it, yet it doesn’t seem any harder than the slower miles in the first half. This stride and pace feel right!

    Finally mile 22….oh OK let’s just rinse this now then! Straight in with a 6.16 followed by 6.24 and 6.24. By this point I am on the final down straight of the final half of the final loop and I know I’ll soon turn around for the run home. At 24.4 I look at the watch knowing there’s 2m left and some basic calculations tell me 2.52 is safe and 2.51 is a maybe. I am feeling euphoric at this point. Green/black vests are minutes behind me, probably wondering wtf is going on and I am just floating along. As I pass 25m (6.20), runners coming down the otherside are shouting me on and one tells me I look remarkably fresh. I didn’t want it to end and quite frankly if at 26m someone had told me there had been a cock up and I needed to go again down the otherside, I could have!

    I am debating now, when to really let go. Just keep it steady I tell myself, get to the 26m marker which comes in 6.20 and then I know I’m done and can start wrapping things up. I begin my sprint finish, knowing that there’s still the best part of 400m to go so it was important to not overcook it as I wanted to cross the line gloriously!! The line finally came and the final 0.42 was run in 6.02mm pace. I stopped my watch and I know this sounds odd but I was hugely disappointed to see 2.52.02 and I was convinced it would be 2.51.xx. It wasn’t until I got back to the car and checked the official results did I see 2.51.59, so another bout of joy came my way.

    Normally after a mara I need to fall on the floor and can’t move again. I felt pretty good here and was happy just stood and walking normally, chatting to a few folk. 5 or so minutes later green vest came in in 2.56.xx for his first sub 3 on his 5th mara. We had a good chat, mainly him trying to understand what the hell I’d taken to finish like that. Given we started together and we were together at mile 18, pretty pleasing to then come in 5 minutes quicker. Another couple of minutes  and black vest came in. He had also ran 2.56 in his first mara, but he started two minutes behind us. It’s almost a shame as black and green vest ran almost identical times, just 10s between them, so they could have ran the whole race together.

    Essentially I ran a 1.27/1.24 split with the last 8m at 6.26mm and the last 10k in around 39.40. I think there’s a reasonable argument that I was able to pace it that way because I showed it too much respect in the first 15 and could potentially have been braver and gone for 2.49. Ultimately though the A goal was sub 2.55 to bank a Berlin GFA and also a pb and London 2022 GFA. Job done and now I can perhaps take a bit more of a risk in an Autumn marathon.

    Below is the photo my wife took as I approached the finish line.

     


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Skinny, thanks, great report and good to see you enjoying yourself in those photo's. Though I assume they were early on, as there didn't look like much suffering! Great to be straight into the prizes as well!

    Though as Tommy says, you've spent all that money on trainers then let yourself down with the t'shirt and shorts!!!

    Pete, good to hear from you and that you are still working at it.

    Muddy will need to get his training in over the summer, as that marathon gold cell he has appears to be within grabbing distance for me suddenly!

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    DT - Great report. Rare to hear someone make a marathon sound so easy! Especially impressive given it was essentially a solo time trial. Got to give you confidence for a sub 2.50 effort next time out.

    One thing that stood out for me was how you seemed to have a breakthrough after some enforced downtime. That's probably not a coincidence. Runners rarely seem to take an extended break unless forced to by injury. But I think it's an essential part of continued long term improvement. Eventually the body needs more than a cut back week to fully recover and adapt.
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Congratulations again, DT. Perfect executed race following some perfectly executed training. Great report too.
    Once you're fully recovered it will time to get involved in some shorter races and picking up some prizes!  
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Mr V, yes it is a strange coincidence for sure and a point picked up by AD on the mg thread. Perhaps it was just what I needed!

    Tommy, my objectives now ASAP are sub 36 10k and sub 80 half, for which I've my eye on a few things in the next 6-8 weeks. There are so many races suddenly cropping up.

    I am trying to enjoy myself this next two weeks and chill out and eat and get drunk but I've already found myself messaging Lewis telling him there's not enough on my schedule and i'm ready to kick on!

    First run today, just 4m at recovery, a mile further than scheduled!!!

  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited April 2021
    Bollocks to training over the summer, I'm saving up for expensive absorb-all-light-woven-from-the-material-of-black-hole shorts !

    It all sounded very comfortable DT. Well done again. You know, I reckon you might have gone sub 2.50 if you weren't planning a negative split. I know they give you great joy, yet I'm struggling to think of a race where I was going for it in which I didn't slow down a bit towards the end. For me, part and parcel of a race is leaving it all out there and seeing what emerges both in 'time on the clock' and 'me' terms.
  • Oh yeah meant to ask DT - how about those Alphafly's ? Comparison with Next% for marathoning and how did they wear ? Any feeling that they lost a bit of pop after a few miles ? That's something I get with the Vaporfly/Next% ...
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I told you the shorts were a game changer, but you all mocked me!!!

    I was acutely aware that there was a danger I would under cook and subsequently there is only so much you can claw back in the later stages. I think that's the downside of no tune up races, you don't know quite how much trust you can place in 10m at mp. I certainly didn't feel like I left it all out there and there is a sense of regret over that, but I did also take the view that Saturday was about banking a pb, and the London/Berlin GFA'S. The risks can be taken in London now.

    As for the shoes, I was very close last week to going with the next % as i'd had a few aches in the feet from the couple of runs i had done in them, particularly on the left side where I felt I could feel the carbon plates. I decided to stick with them though and I had no issues on the day. They were very comfortable and as with previous iterations that sense of drive from the shoes seems to fade away after the first mile or two. I don't think it actually does however, you just switch off to them.

  • We mocked the marketing spiel rather than the shorts or you ... did they work to keep gels and your revvies from bouncing around ?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    In terms of gels etc, there's only one small pocket at the back. I've always used a flip belt for that purpose have purchased one 4 years ago so that just did the job it's always done for me. 

    I note they have released a new mara short which is a traditional pair if shorts with various gel loops, however they are well in excess of £100. I prefer the tights as they eliminate any inner thigh chaffing risk amongst their other benefits. 
  • Well done DT - great report - I liked the fact that you've written about 10,000 words and they contain the phrase 'there’s not much I can say about running up and down  in straight lines'.

    Also it's nice to see a photo of you roaring near the finish line and know that you're not trying to avoid vomiting.

    Overall though absolutely fantastic that you ran to your plan and it all worked out beautifully - I think Muddy is in danger of losing his marathon gold cell when you do London later in the year!

  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2021
    DT19 said:

    Skinny, thanks, great report and good to see you enjoying yourself in those photo's. Though I assume they were early on, as there didn't look like much suffering! Great to be straight into the prizes as well!

    Muddy will need to get his training in over the summer, as that marathon gold cell he has appears to be within grabbing distance for me suddenly!

    Actually no it was just before 5 miles on an uphill bit - I think maybe because the last 3 miles were mainly wind behind and I was protecting my soleus a bit it all felt remarkably easy - normally by that stage I'm leaning forward trying to force my legs on but there was none of that.


    And I hadn't spotted your comment about Muddy's gold cell when I made mine above!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Skinny, a few years ago that final Mile would have been a nightmare but didn't even cross my mind Saturday, which emphasises fact it was literally mental! 

    Unbelievably, based on what I can remember of the ttt (hint, hint) , the marathon cell is the only one I stand half a chance of nailing. 

  •  I think Muddy is in danger of losing his marathon gold cell when you do London later in the year!

    My training last week was reasonable, with 35 miles of easy running and a decent amount of biking and hiking. This week has been rubbish though - parenting through school holidays and work stopping me from running so far. DT, you should celebrate with as much beer and champagne as you can stomach for the next week or so.

    So I've got my entry for Manchester which I think is the week before London ? That could set things up nicely for a marathon gold cell head to head. Mind you, I will know mid September what my most optimistic hope might be because I've got a half lined up at marathon effort then. Or maybe they'll both be cancelled.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    What half, Muddy? Who knows what's going to happen in 6 months. I'm going to get my races in ASAP starting with a thursday night 10k on 20th May. 

    Currently on my second beer and stuffed from takeaway. 

    We have a mini break Thursday to Sunday next week. After then it's head back on the training. 
  • DT19 said:
    Unbelievably, based on what I can remember of the ttt (hint, hint) , the marathon cell is the only one I stand half a chance of nailing. 
    Your wish is my command DT.

    Attached is an updated TTT for:-

    DT's stupendous marathon effort knocking nearly 6 mins off his previous best and marching past the bests of Lit and mace in the process (although only by seconds) - without the 6:04 last mile you would all have been in a heap.

    Also updated your best WAVA as your Hm had improved it and I didn't notice and I've nudged your weight down to 10st 4 which is last I can remember you reporting although it might have jumped a few pounds this week by the sounds of it.

    I'm aware that somewhere in some sort of TT or training run you've done a near 36 min 10k but I don't think that was an official time?

    Other updates to the TTT

    Lit becoming Schrodinger's Cat of Fat and also jumping 2 years older due to out of date TTT information.

    Finally and unexpectedly Skinny improving his all time WAVA from 78.54% to 78.89% - who'd have thought, certainly not me as I breezed round the 10k on Sunday - must try harder next time! 

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    DT19 said:

    I told you the shorts were a game changer, but you all mocked me!!!


    I didn't mock, I said to get the magic hat (and provided evidence that they work, you might have got a sub 2:50 with one!).

     Skinny - cheers for the updated TTT, a nice blast from the past! 

    For your next update, I am now 38 and Bob was 50 a couple of months ago; he’s was looking to have a good go at some track races as a young v50 this year but has been hit with another calf injury so think that’s off the cards. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Fair point, Tommy, you were on my team!! That bloody calf of Bobs, it's been his nemesis for 6 years now. I'm surprised he hasn't taken bigger steps to get to the root cause. It's probably a glute weakness, that's what every other injury seems to be caused by!

    Thanks, Skinny, nice to see, though with the exception of my half time, everything looks like it needs realigning. The 10k was just a TT, I hope to run a real one on 20th May. If you have cause to update further then, then I am now 45. I shouldn't think i'll be 10'4 for a few weeks now, but my aim is to stay around that level.

    Well done on the wava improvement, something else that looks poor for me. I think from discussions some years back as you get older the wava system assumes you become poorer at shorter distances than longer distances so is weighted to reward performances at 10k and below so hopefully when I do run a 10k I can improve that a bit.

  • Updated to reflect all the older people above however in addition I've also hidden absent friends and unhidden Mr V who is currently posting and gives DT a few more targets to aim for now the rest of us are too slow.

    All absent friends are still there just hidden but as there are only 7 of us currently posting we're all just one league now so it's gold cells or nothing.
  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    Cheers for adding me back in Skinny. Pleased to see I'm still clinging onto the 5 mile gold cell, if only because they are so few and far between. That's got to look tempting to DT if he can find a race! Sadly I'm no longer 31 nor I suspect that light (35 later this month).


  • That is so funny about the 5 mile gold cell. I remember it almost fondly as my first gold cell, although it was taken from Skinny in what was I think my second ever 5 mile race and I went for a pint with Tommy and Lit afterwards.

    My most recent 5 mile race was marred by a laces stop, an ice rink of a start, in which they rolled us off at a slow and careful pace for 400m,  and an ice rink of a finish such that they cut the race short rather than have us sprinting dangerously for the finish line, so there was no way I was going to use that to make a claim for the cell.

    I would wager it is well within DT's grasp now if he was so minded ...
  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭
    Thanks for your continued work on the TTT, Skinny.  Hiding absent friends makes me look even further adrift of the pack.  Worse still, I turned 68 a couple of months ago.
    Very enjoyable report, DT.
  • Updated for Mr V correct age, Muddy NOT having the gold cell and removing the boxing round Lit and Mace's marathon times that should not have been there ever since Muddy beat mace's time.

    The reason it was there was that mace held the fastest marathon time but was in the silver league.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2021
    I did 28.58 in my 10k tt as it happens. It's the other one after the marathon I might be capable of. However, as noted by Mr v, finding a decent 5m that also fits in to other plans could well provide an equal challenge.  At the moment, on my plan for the year there's a 5m mid December.
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