Overdone it?

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  • There has to be improvement in my times yet, it's only been a year and I'm already much better equipped and addicted to buying new running shoes :smiley:

    Continue to set myself realistic targets and I'm happy... 6/7 week of proper training left in me before I attempt that sub 50 in September. Actually find it easier to train in winter so might attempt some HM early next year as the next focus
    Strava: https://www.strava.com/athletes/garrethsmith
  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    DT19 said:
    Muddy who posts on here ran his first half in 2013, aged 43 in 1.38. Three years later he ran 1.16. That's about the same gain you need but faster you get the harder it is to find the minutes. 
    I think we all think muddy was exceptional though so not best guide.

    hamster I was probably about a 1:40 HM runner when I started training in 2011 - my first race back was a 75 min 10 mile race in November 2011. That was all I ran recently before the start of this thread.

    However racing and running had always been something I did in 10 week bursts after entering the local HM then nothing for a few years so the big gains came from training continuously throughout the year over a number of years.

    The biggest gains are in the first couple of years although DT is having some unusual leaps in PBs after a number of years that I think are linked to an improvement in his robustness enabling him to do extra mileage and hard sessions.

    The only way to find out what you are capable of is to commit to the training long term and see where it takes you. But I'd stick in some easily attainable short term goals because hitting goals is a good feeling.
  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    Hi DH, nice to see a new face.

    I started off with a 1.48 HM and ended up with a 1.20.

    I'd say it's too early to judge what you are capable of but if you run consistently for months/ years I'm sure you'll surprise yourself in terms of the times you are capable of.


  • Thanks Mr V ! Good to here positive stories... From what I gather it's about consistency and not letting off, I will try to make a minimum of 3 runs a week from now on although I've probably done more 4/5 without injuries...
    Strava: https://www.strava.com/athletes/garrethsmith
  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭
    I walked a kilometre without using a crutch today :smile:
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Pete, good to hear from you and that you are progressing.

    DH- progressive consistency is the key. Otherwise you get to a point that your body isn't becoming stressed and can deal quite comfortably with the process. A key part of the process is recovery as that's when the magic happens, so by 'not backing off' not confuse that with going hell for leather constantly. If you look at any 16 week training cycle, within it you will find 3 or 4 micro cycles. Using strava premium, if I look in the relative effort part it shows me my last 12 weeks training- relative effort and you can almost follow it curving up and down. You'd need a bigger period than 12 weeks to really see it but I can always see the process looking at that.

    Skinny, it is an interesting factor the robustness that comes from years of doing this. I've seen people come to my club as novice runners and get very good very quickly, but then suddenly find that their bodies cannot cope with what is suddenly required of them, from virtually nowhere and just float from injury to injury and end up giving in.

    I've felt a bit tired coming off sundays 20m race and the plan originally was that i'd be flying to Lanzarote this morning so could then come back fresh. However I am now flying two weeks today, all being equal so finding the balance of keeping going but allowing recovery.

    10m very easy Tuesday, then a mini session of 8 x 3min at hmp off 1 min jog on Tuesday was just under 5m at 6.19mm, then a very easy 6m yesterday which felt very easy as it was 16c and not the 26c I am used to. Off out lunchtime for 8m at mara pace.


  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    PeteHew said:
    I walked a kilometre without using a crutch today :smile:
    Good news Pete - have you got a limp? (if that's not too personal a question  ;))
  • >
    > DH- progressive consistency is the key. Otherwise you get to a point that your body isn't becoming stressed and can deal quite comfortably with the process. A key part of the process is recovery as that's when the magic happens, so by 'not backing off' not confuse that with going hell for leather constantly. If you look at any 16 week training cycle, within it you will find 3 or 4 micro cycles. Using strava premium, if I look in the relative effort part it shows me my last 12 weeks training- relative effort and you can almost follow it curving up and down. You'd need a bigger period than 12 weeks to really see it but I can always see the process looking at that.

    Recovery is the thing I'm not struggling with per se but something I really need to force myself into. Ran a hard 8k Wednesday with an easy 12k yesterday and legs feel heavy. I know I need to rest but same time I want to do something... Doesn't help I know I'm out all day tomorrow and I don't want to sit and do nothing twice !

    Maybe a 20min how slow can I run, run :|

    >
    > Skinny, it is an interesting factor the robustness that comes from years of doing this. I've seen people come to my club as novice runners and get very good very quickly, but then suddenly find that their bodies cannot cope with what is suddenly required of them, from virtually nowhere and just float from injury to injury and end up giving in.

    You can certainly gain robustness but your body will reach it's natural limit I think. That's where the injury comes and you need to realise that and back it down to where your stable.

    Difference between your standard runner, great runner and Olympic runner I suspect
    Strava: https://www.strava.com/athletes/garrethsmith
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I recall reading an article about Steve Way and his accidental discovery whilst being a couch potato that he also had the capability to be an elite distance runner. He said that he just found that he could absorb massive sessions several times a week and recover ridiculously quickly.

    10.5M with 8 at mp over lunch. Nice to get out in cool conditions. Took the first half easy with a 6.29, 6.26, 6.28 and 6.27. At the half way bell I took the reigns off and progressed to 6.14, 6.13, 6.13 and 6.14, coming in at 6.20mm, same pace as sundays 20m race. Average HR was 155 so a  reasonable amount below the 160 target.

    Definitely fitter than I was pre Dorney mara now I've done a staple run in sensible temps.

  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭
    PeteHew said:
    I walked a kilometre without using a crutch today :smile:
    Good news Pete - have you got a limp? (if that's not too personal a question  ;))

    No limp but I woke with some slightly tender muscles this morning so eased back to 750m today.  Also doing plenty of strengthening exercises and can manage to walk up and down stairs and do some gentle running on the spot :smile:  I've got an outpatients appointment on Monday and hope to be given the ok to start driving again.


  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    Sounds really positive Pete.

    Nice stuff DT - yeah it's a lot more pleasant running now although it will soon be driving sleet and gloves again so don't complain about the heat too much.

    4,2,9,4,6,0,5 for 30 miles last week for me - aiming for similar this week except including an 11 long run.
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    Hello! Hope you don't mind me crashing the thread. I've posted in the forum intermittently before but never had much staying power - and the same applies to my running.

    Brief history: started in 2016, made some quick gains, got injured. On and off since then. Strava tells me I ran 380 miles that year, and that's been about my average since then, although I appear to have taken 2019 off entirely. Anyhow, started running again during lockdown and have stuck with it properly since about April last year. I've run just about 500 miles so far this year - pretty good for me! - and now looking to push on. I'm 36 so should still be able to make some gains, although I also have a history of pushing too hard and getting injured so we'll see!

    I'm a bit limited PB-wise given lack of actual race-running but I managed a 18:05 parkrun and a 39:10 10k back in the heady heights of 2016. I'm hoping to push at those PBs a bit this year given more consistent training. Also really enjoy fell running and hoping to get some more hill races in this year.

    Long post, hopefully not too self-absorbed. Have enjoyed reading other people's updates. 

    Last four weeks I've run 24m, 24m, 7m (fell race) and 20m. Planning to run another 20 mile week this week, including first parkrun in ages on Saturday. Should be a good indication of how fit I am.


  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    Hi MYOX, welcome - 18:05 off 385 miles sounds like you have loads of potential and you're just a kid so go for it.

    Where do you live? (not the actual address obviously :-))

    Cheers
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    Hi Skinny. I live in the Carnforth area, north of Lancaster. Looking to move nearer the Lakes but house hunting is a nightmare at the moment.

    Haven't felt like a kid in ages. Currently nursing a slightly sore hip which makes me feel ancient. :) 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Hi Myox, as Skinny says that's a pretty sharp 5k time already and off little training.

    It's all about progressive consistency. You don't necessarily need any big fancy sessions, particularly if you are  a bit prone to injury. Just running miles for a bit and building that up with progress you.

    Solid tally last week, Skinny. Hope this week has progressed to plan.

    Decent session yesterday of 10k, alternating between hmp and mp. Wasn't really fancying this after a busy day and started off steadily. If you  overcook this too early on it becomes a nightmare.

    Ended up almost perfectly progessive with 3.39, 4.09, 3.39, 4.07, 3.38, 4.03, 3.37, 4.02, 3.36 and 3.55. Ended up 38.32 for the 10k so 6.12mm.

    Have an easy 11m MLR lunchtime or after work.

  • Hi guys,

    Any advice on a realistic hilly half marathon pace for an up and coming race? I can run 8 minute miles over 8 - 10 mile runs, but realistically that's my limit right now. I'd struggle to average 7.45 minute miles on a flat course at the moment.

    I'm tempted to run the race 2 weeks early to get a feel for it. It's 'The Path of Condie' which is 1100 feet of 'gain' so unlike anything I've ever really ran before. (My long hilly runs are 400-500 feet gain). I cycled the route and its a monster!!
  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    Ronin147 said:
    Hi guys,

    Any advice on a realistic hilly half marathon pace for an up and coming race? I can run 8 minute miles over 8 - 10 mile runs, but realistically that's my limit right now. I'd struggle to average 7.45 minute miles on a flat course at the moment.

    I'm tempted to run the race 2 weeks early to get a feel for it. It's 'The Path of Condie' which is 1100 feet of 'gain' so unlike anything I've ever really ran before. (My long hilly runs are 400-500 feet gain). I cycled the route and its a monster!!
    Hi Ronin - really not enough info.

    Is there also 1100 feet of 'loss'?
    Is it on road?
    Is 10 miles the furthest you've run?
    Are you saying you could you go and bash out an 80 minute 10 miler tomorrow on your own?
    How many miles do you run a week (or have you run in last 10 weeks?)
    Recent races? Distances and times?

    If I ran 80 minutes for 10 miles in a training run and I was doing a hilly half I'd still be aiming for faster than 8 minute miles but I would probably have run a couple of slow 15 milers in training and I'd also have been doing a bit of training running up hills.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I'm pretty sure there'd be a calculator somewhere on line to give you some idea. However, it can't factor in how well you handle hills.

    Also as Skinny says, how the 1100 feet is spread out can have a big impact. If you have 800ft in the first half then a significant amount downhill in 2nd half it isn't the same as slowly and persistently just climbing.

    For me, if I was faced with that race i'd estimate it would be 30s per mile slower than what I could manage on a perfectly flat course of that distance.

    11m MLR yesterday and 6m easy today.

  • Thanks for the initial responses.

    This year I've ran about 800 miles, averaging about 25 per week. I've ran the 8-10 mile distance around 20 times at a comfortable 8.30 ish pace. When I've pushed myself I can hit 8 minute miles over that distance. I've only ran the 12 mile distance twice this year but it felt relatively comfortable.

    My pb for a half is 1.45 but I don't run them that often and my 10K pb of around 42 minutes suggests my half should be a litter quicker. That was aged mid 30s, I'm now late 30s but that shouldn't matter too much.

    The massive challenge this year however has been weight. I was a ridiculous size in January and I've had to shed over 2 stones to get back to a reasonable but still slightly plump 13 stone for my 5 foot 10 frame. Ideally I would've got down to 12 stone 6 or 7 ahead of the races I have lined up August through to October. So this year probably wont see PBs but that's fine.

    The hilly race in two weeks shows as "1100 foot gain" in mapmyrun. I think its simply the sum of all the hills. The graph of its elevation certainly shows that you effectively climb 500 feet over the first 4 miles, descend for a couple then rise a further 600 feet to the top of the race at around 9 miles. It's all on hilly, undulating minor roads.

    I think to answer my own question the strategy will be to run the first 9 miles of the course this weekend to get an idea of a comfortable pace. If I can do that averaging 8.45s I'll be really happy as I may then be able to batter out a few 8 minute miles. I think 1.55 for this race would be pretty good for where I am.

    In September I have some flatter halfs and 10Ks at which point I should know what I'm capable of. Next year should be exciting if I can carry the weight loss trajectory over winter, or at least maintain what I've dropped down to.

    So is running the first hilly 9 miles this weekend a reasonable strategy?
  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    'So is running the first hilly 9 miles this weekend a reasonable strategy?'

    Yes but don't race it. 

    I would suggest in the actual race with people around you that the 8:30ish pace you achieve in flat 10 mile runs comfortably will be possible in the race despite the elevation but it will be more like 9s on the ups and 8s on the downs (and I suspect you will be faster).

    Cheers. 
  • Ok so full disclosure… I’ve have a chest infection for 2 weeks now and I’m beginning to panic. Since the last fast 8-miler 10 days ago, I’ve only done managed 4 or 5 shorter runs. <div>
    </div><div>I felt the bug had run it’s course as it went through the standard phases of being congested then coughing up the green stuff. I’ve been left with a dry cough and slight wheeze. </div><div>
    </div><div>Do I need to take a break till this has completely cleared? Earlier this week I did a pretty fast 5 miler so felt really positive but today I felt pretty tired when I set out with the intention of doing something bigger. </div><div>
    </div><div>Also just had my second vaccine this week too…</div>
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    edited August 7
    Ronin: Tuppence from me (but I'm not particularly experienced) is that race day conditions always give you a bit more than you expect. Probably best to start a little cautiously and then give it some beans once you're in the flow of things.

    Ran Morecambe parkrun this morning and was very happy to come away with 17:33, a PB of around 30s.

    It was a bit windy and rainy on the seafront so I was slightly unsure how fast I'd be able to go, but I felt good from the start and the first (slightly wind-assisted) mile went in 5:34. At this point I was in 4th and it was feeling suspiciously easy, but at about two thirds of the way we turned back on ourselves and the wind made it a fair bit more difficult. I was lucky to have a chap about 50m ahead to focus on, passed him with about 500m to go, then pushed hard to the finish line. 

    Unfortunately I didn't have chance to print my barcode but it's on Strava for posterity! My previous parkruns have been on a hillier Sheffield course, and I think a flat course made a huge difference, but nonetheless I'm chuffed with that. Didn't feel anywhere near as knackered at the end compared to previous 5k efforts so I might have a bit more to give too!

    13 miles so far this week. Will do something longish and slow tomorrow.
  • I think because it’s hilly and my training has been scuppered by this chest infection I have to accept that it’s a run and not a race. Even if the last few weeks had went well, I’d of been happy to just get close to 1.50 for it. As it stands, my hilly runs suggest 2 hours is achievable without too much pain. <div>
    </div><div>I wouldn’t normally care too much but it’s a very niche run with only 90 entrants. Most runners comfortably get sub 1.45, with the 2 hour mark being quite far back. So a little frustrating I didn’t quite get my weight down as low as I wanted and latterly I’ve been sidelined with this virus. 

    For the miles I do, I’ve always said I’m a bang average runner. My secrecy weapon however is that in all these years has been a stone or two overweight. If I can get nearer to 12 stone all my pb’s will get smashed comfortably. </div>
  • I ran the course today and it was pretty horrible to be honest! I wish I hadn’t!!

    I’m still wheezing a little from the chest infection but it is fading thankfully. I’d done 16 miles already this week, of which two runs were effectively timed 5 & 10ks. I still felt relatively fresh this morning and battered out the first 5 or 6 miles in 8.30 pace. Then the second wave of hills hit and I had to walk elements meaning I averaged 10 minute miles for the next 3. It was horrible. <div>
    </div><div>By about mile 10 my average pace was bang on 9 minutes per mile. I’d haemorrhaged time and felt exhausted.

    The final 3 miles are downhill so I had two successive 7.30/7.45 miles but the final mile nearer was 9 mins again. So 1 hour 56 which is actually faster than I had predicted. </div><div>
    </div><div>The race is in 2 weeks so I’ll rest up and should hit the start line a bit fresher and having rid myself of this virus. Sub 1.50 seems unlikely now so getting close to it will be a success.</div><div>
    </div><div>(I don’t think I’ll run the routes of events again until the actual race!!)</div>
  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    'So is running the first hilly 9 miles this weekend a reasonable strategy?'

    Yes but don't race it. 
     :/ 
  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    MYOX said:
    Ran Morecambe parkrun this morning and was very happy to come away with 17:33, a PB of around 30s.

    It was a bit windy and rainy on the seafront so I was slightly unsure how fast I'd be able to go, but I felt good from the start and the first (slightly wind-assisted) mile went in 5:34. At this point I was in 4th and it was feeling suspiciously easy, but at about two thirds of the way we turned back on ourselves and the wind made it a fair bit more difficult. I was lucky to have a chap about 50m ahead to focus on, passed him with about 500m to go, then pushed hard to the finish line. 

    Didn't feel anywhere near as knackered at the end compared to previous 5k efforts so I might have a bit more to give too!
    Windy parkrun off about 100 miles a month training in 17:33 - I think you're going to get faster than all of us on here if you put in some proper miles. Well done.
  • SkinnyPart2SkinnyPart2 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9
    4,2,11,2,4, 8 (incl parkrun), 0 for 31 miles total.

    After MYOX casual 17:33 I'm almost embarrassed to mention my parkrun return (although actually I was pretty chuffed with it).

    6:34, 6:31, 6:28 plus 5:59 pace for the 0.14 uphill scraps for 20:22. (EDIT: that was my fastest parkrun since I ran 20:00 in January 2017 - I probably jogged it back then  :'()

    Got the third of my 5k races on Wednesday night - Carlisle parkrun is a lot tougher course than the 5k route so hoping to edge inside my 19:13 from last month. Then hopefully get in a 13 miler at the weekend to nudge towards 35 for the week.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Myox, that's a pretty sharp time off such training. Though I suppose most track to 5k runners wouldn't necessarily train to much higher mileage than that and it is more about the sessions, not that I am suggesting that's what you are, just noting that 25m is probably sufficient weekly to run a very good 5k with the right balance of training.

    Decent going, Skinny. Good luck Wednesday night.

    64M for me last week with a pleasant 20 yesterday at 7.28mm. Kicked off this week with a 5m recovery over lunch.

  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    edited August 9
    Skinny: thanks! Sounds like an excellent 5k for you as well. Good luck for Wednesday.

    DT: yes, I've done a lot of hilly running (100,000 ft ascent this year so far) so I wonder if some efforts in the fells have helped my 5k fitness. To be honest I haven't done much straightforward speedwork, but I have done a fair bit of trying *hard* on rough ground.

    Looking at your long run definitely puts things in perspective: there's no way I could run 20m at 7:28 pace and for it to feel pleasant. I ran 9.5 miles (950ft ascent) at 8:30 pace yesterday and it felt pretty tough. 

    Am now trying to work out where to go next in terms of training. Obviously I can increase my volume but I know from bitter experience that I need to be careful as I tend to get injured. I'm wondering whether aiming for a regular 30 miles a week and adding in a solid 20min tempo workout might be a good place to start.
  • <blockquote class="Quote">
    <div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/SkinnyPart2" class="js-userCard" data-userid="7537969">SkinnyPart2</a> said:</div>
    <div class="QuoteText"><blockquote class="Quote">
    <div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/SkinnyPart2" class="js-userCard" data-userid="7537969">SkinnyPart2</a> said:</div>
    <div class="QuoteText">'So is running the first hilly 9 miles this weekend a reasonable strategy?'

    Yes but don't race it. 
    </div>
    </blockquote>
     :/ 
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    I didn’t race <i>race</i> it, I tried to keep the effort at 60-70% but the hills broke me!!

    At the moment I’m not really fit enough to give anything 100% but that’s all good.

    Anyone else got any races coming up? I’ve got this Path of Condie, Scottish Half Marathon and ‘Men’s 10k’ in Edinburgh. <div>
    </div><div>Hopefully they’ll all go ahead! </div>
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