Overdone it?

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  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    I'm not too bad at the climbing part and often catch and overtake people going uphill. I'm getting better at the downs but I haven't got the no fear approach that others seem to have. A race I did a couple of weeks ago had a long downhill to the finish but the ground was littered with granite boulders and hummocky grass etc, I was chuffed to be sub 6 pace for much of it. Looking at strava afterwards some of the people ahead of me were at 4:45ish pace coming downthe hill over that terrain...

    The parkrun I did last weekend (Tamar Trails) is nett downhill but it has a massive hill to go up between 4 and 4.5k and I was reduced to a walk. It was won in the 7th fastest time ever recorded on the course (and at least 1 of those faster times is canine assisted) by a lad from up near you, Skinny. Did feel a bit for the chap in second, also a tourist, who's time of 16:34 (8th fastest ever time) would be good enough to win 99 times out of 100 at that course. 

    Hopefully you feel well enough for your 5k tomorrow. 
  • Wow - 16:14 is fast whatever the terrain - the gap between the first two and the rest amused me.

    Yeah sub  is fast downhill over that terrain. Well done.

    Have you read Feet in the Clouds? I think you'd really enjoy it and it's got lots of fun facts in about some local fell racing legends. You reminded me of one in your marvelling at 4:45 pace downhill - I think in one fell race someone was timed as doing a sub 3:30 downhill mile. 
  • PS did you see that Kipchoge stuck in a 14:27 5k between 30 and 35k to break away from the pack?
  • > @SkinnyPart2 said:
    > PS did you see that Kipchoge stuck in a 14:27 5k between 30 and 35k to break away from the pack?

    That man is a machine, it can't be humanely possible ! For those with sky I would recommend his documentary on the sub 2hr marathon... The planning that went into it is incredible

    2m 50sec for every km on a marathon course - come on. I can't manage that pace for 400m
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Skinny, how are you feeling today post migraine?

    Ronin, I have London in 7 weeks so having had a decent phase of racing im just focusing on that now.

    Myox, the general advice is not to increase volume and intensity together. Get one settled, then add in the other. What is utterly crucial is that you run your easy runs easy enough. Many of my easy runs are still at the same pace they were when I was 12 minutes or so slower over a half marathon. I realise now that whilst they weren't overly fast still 7.45-8mm they were faster than they needed to be.

    DangerousH- that's not the last milestone doc is it? Says that is released on 24th August?

    Tommy, that's some pretty insane paces on that terrain. When I did the hilly 100, I had this significant drop of about 1k and that was on road and I felt unsafe shifting faster than about 5.15 pace!

    Taking Skinnys point, one of the reasons I don't bother with x country anymore is the risk of injury. Whilst people will tell you it builds strength and makes you fitter etc I think the risk/reward ratio isn't quite in line. It's OK maybe when you are 30 and can bounce away from an injury but I think when you get to a certain age you have to take a more cautious approach.

    Decent session yesterday of 10 x 1k at 10kp off 1 min. A pretty savage session but a staple session. Didn't really fancy it at the beginning but settled in with splits of 3.43, 3.37, 3.35, 3.37, 3.35, 3.36, 3.36, 3.36, 3.31 and 3.29 so was able to pick it up slightly in second half.

    Out later for an easy 12m.

  • > @DT19 said:
    > DangerousH- that's not the last milestone doc is it? Says that is released on 24th August?

    That's the one, I watched it a week or so ago and is available
    https://www.sky.com/watch/title/programme/6b63a15f-7ee1-43fc-9c13-0588f8a807bf

    > Decent session yesterday of 10 x 1k at 10kp off 1 min. A pretty savage session but a staple session. Didn't really fancy it at the beginning but settled in with splits of 3.43, 3.37, 3.35, 3.37, 3.35, 3.36, 3.36, 3.36, 3.31 and 3.29 so was able to pick it up slightly in second half.

    I saw that, those paces are utterly insane. As for another easy 12m surely your legs are battered after that, mine are and I'm no where near that intensity...
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    DH, thanks, will try and watch that over next few days. Hadn't realised it was available.

    My legs feel largely untouched by yesterdays session. I am at that stage in the cycle where 10m tempos and runs like this don't do much damage to the legs as they are used to them so it makes it possible to roll on.

  • DT19 said:

    Skinny, how are you feeling today post migraine?

    I'm better today but not going to race tonight - would just be asking for trouble,

    Cheers
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    edited August 2021
    Hello everyone. 

    First training session with new club yesterday (Helm Hill Runners). Short steep downhills in a downpour. Strava reckons my best rep was 3:12min miling. :)

    Another recommendation for Feet in the Clouds - it got me interested in fell running. What's your next race, Tommy? I'm planning to run the Three Shires in mid-September.

    DT19: good advice. I will probably just try to make my weekly hard run a bit more focused, and increase milage by adding another easy run. Probably sufficient for now. It's taken me a long time but I've now quite happy to run my slow runs properly slow - 8:30-9 min miles. The one big gap for me is a proper long run - at the moment I only ever run 10-12 miles at most - but I think I'll build that up more gradually.

    Hope the migraine's still improving, Skinny.

    7 yesterday, including hard session. 4 v easy with dog this morning. 14.9 miles so far this week. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Skinny, probably sensible.

    Myox, that very much depends on your ambitions. If it's to not race beyond 10k, I am not sure there's any real necessity to go further than 10-12m.

    Nice easy 12m yesterday then spin this morning followed by 6m easy over lunch with some strides. Sadly my sons passport hasn't arrived so I won't be flying to Lanzarote in the morning as planned. I am taking some time off work though after today. I'll be out early ish in morning for 10m at mara pace before driving down to Dorset for the weekend.

  • PeteHewPeteHew ✭✭✭
    Consultant was happy with my progress but said no running for another 3 months  :'( Cycling allowed and I should give it a go but I'm not very confident after many years without a bike. Gradually building up the walking. Managed 5.5km at 12:24 pace today.

    Good to see some new names on here and some old favourites running well!
  • How steep would a section of a race have to be for you guys to walk it?

    I have this half marathon coming up where it has some horror sections where the gradient is mental. At the moment, on the flat I probably have a 1.45 - 1.47 HM in me, but a trial run of this course came in nearer 2 hours last weekend.

    Do you guys think physiologically you’d want to be running at all time. You know, don’t give your brain any thoughts of walking even if it is just for a minute or so? Or at my pace, perhaps losing mile 8 and 9 to preserve energy is the smart move. 

    The hilly race I did I averaged probably 8.30 miles for 10 of them but for the 3 worst miles in the middle I through in a few 10.30s because I walked elements. I had a couple of 7 minute miles near the end. I was basically all over the place pace wise because of the hills. 
  • PeteHew said:
    Consultant was happy with my progress but said no running for another 3 months  :'( Cycling allowed and I should give it a go but I'm not very confident after many years without a bike. Gradually building up the walking. Managed 5.5km at 12:24 pace today.

    Good to see some new names on here and some old favourites running well!
    Overall that sounds like good news Pete - you could try cycling in a gym if you get twitchy for exercise but don't want to hit the roads.
  • Ronin147 said:
    How steep would a section of a race have to be for you guys to walk it?

    I have this half marathon coming up where it has some horror sections where the gradient is mental. At the moment, on the flat I probably have a 1.45 - 1.47 HM in me, but a trial run of this course came in nearer 2 hours last weekend.

    Do you guys think physiologically you’d want to be running at all time. You know, don’t give your brain any thoughts of walking even if it is just for a minute or so? Or at my pace, perhaps losing mile 8 and 9 to preserve energy is the smart move. 

    The hilly race I did I averaged probably 8.30 miles for 10 of them but for the 3 worst miles in the middle I through in a few 10.30s because I walked elements. I had a couple of 7 minute miles near the end. I was basically all over the place pace wise because of the hills. 
    If the race is on roads throughout I've never found a section of road I couldn't run up but I would think your legs will tell you if you need to walk. I've run up fells and there are times when you just stop running and start walking. 

    I think you are maybe overthinking this race. You've already done the race on your own in about 1:56 so I reckon you can do sub 1:50 on the day. If you're happy with that then I would set off maybe 10 secs a mile faster than you ran it on your own and see how it goes - the last 4 miles look like a blast! B)
  • 4,0,0,0,0,8 incl pr, 0 for 12 miles last week - still don't feel quite right but hopefully will be able to run a normal week this week. 

    parkrun was 20:52 so 30 secs slower than week before but I didn't dare push it so was reasonably comfortable at that.
  • <blockquote class="Quote">
    <div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/SkinnyPart2" class="js-userCard" data-userid="7537969">SkinnyPart2</a> said:</div>
    <div class="QuoteText"><blockquote class="Quote">
    <div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/Ronin147" class="js-userCard" data-userid="7541046">Ronin147</a> said:</div>
    <div class="QuoteText">How steep would a section of a race have to be for you guys to walk it?

    I have this half marathon coming up where it has some horror sections where the gradient is mental. At the moment, on the flat I probably have a 1.45 - 1.47 HM in me, but a trial run of this course came in nearer 2 hours last weekend.

    Do you guys think physiologically you’d want to be running at all time. You know, don’t give your brain any thoughts of walking even if it is just for a minute or so? Or at my pace, perhaps losing mile 8 and 9 to preserve energy is the smart move. 

    The hilly race I did I averaged probably 8.30 miles for 10 of them but for the 3 worst miles in the middle I through in a few 10.30s because I walked elements. I had a couple of 7 minute miles near the end. I was basically all over the place pace wise because of the hills. </div>
    </blockquote>
    If the race is on roads throughout I've never found a section of road I couldn't run up but I would think your legs will tell you if you need to walk. I've run up fells and there are times when you just stop running and start walking. 

    I think you are maybe overthinking this race. You've already done the race on your own in about 1:56 so I reckon you can do sub 1:50 on the day. If you're happy with that then I would set off maybe 10 secs a mile faster than you ran it on your own and see how it goes - the last 4 miles look like a blast! B)</div>
    </blockquote>
    I appreciate your support but I’m doing my best to sabotage my chances by ruining my taper!!!

    Er… I’ve ended running about 7 days in a row but all smaller 4-5 milers. I’m just conciliatory about my weight going up.

    I’ll try to have 2 or 3 days off this week so I feel fresh for Saturday!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    That's good news, pete. I echo skinnys thoughts. Get a stationary bike or join a cheap gym gor a few months. They'll have decent bikes. 

    Skinny, reasonable effort at parkrun in circumstances.

    Ronin, my immediate thought on reading your post was there's some overthinking going on here. There's a point where breaking off from running into a walk is more efficient and quicker than running. 

    As for the course, what I sometimes do is look at previous results. Find a few names of runners finishing around my planned time. Look them up on power of 10 to check that then find them on strava and find that race and look at they tackled it and how the hills slowed them. Usually if you find one runner you can look at the strava group it automatically creates from that event. 

    Weekend away in Dorset just to get away as should have been flying to lanzarote Friday. Did a 10m mp run first thing then 5m easy Saturday morning. Today was 18m with 9 at 8mm then 9 at mp. Decent run out. Off to London for day out tomorrow so rest day then one decent session Thursday and just some easy running for rest of week finishing with 20 Sunday. Then I've a very big 5 weeks coming in with some nasty looking sessions like 8 x 1m etc. 
  • No matter how mediocre I am at a particular sport, I always want to do the absolute best I can. This weekends race should be a fun one, it’s the ‘Scottish Half Marathon’ in September that I have an outside chance of pb. <div>
    </div><div>I’ve done well to lose 25 pounds this year, but I feel I’ve fell short of losing the further 8-10 pounds that gets me into the range where pb’s should become pretty easy. </div><div>
    </div><div>I didn’t run today so I think tomorrow could be a 6 or 7 miler then a final 3 miler on Thursday or Friday just to ease the nerves and loosen up!</div>
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    Pete: hope you recover well over the next few months.

    Steady week here, just the 15 miles. Drove to Poland over the weekend to catch up with my wife's family so didn't have chance to fit in the long run. 5 miles yesterday and 4 miles today in flat parks.

    In shoe news I've replaced my old knackered Ghost 10s with Glycerine 14s. They are sufficiently boring and soft that I won't be tempted to run my easy runs fast - just the ticket. :)

  • Wow that's some drive MYOX! Whereabouts in Poland? Pre covid I used to travel to Krakow, Katowice and Gliwice for work and probably will be again soon.

    I run in Brooks Ghost - not sure what number model my latest are but 10s were a while ago!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2021
    That is quite a drive! 

    Big session today of 9 x 4 min at hmp off 2 min float at mp. 8.5m covered in 52 mins going through 10k in 37.55. 

    Easy 10m tomorrow, 5 Saturday and 20 Sunday planned. That'll be a 72m week which is highest ever. Not a bad swing given this week I should be in lanzarote probably getting about 20m in and eating and drinking lots. 
  • DT19 said:
    That is quite a drive! 

    Big session today of 9 x 4 min at hmp off 2 min float at mp. 8.5m covered in 52 mins going through 10k in 37.55. 

    Easy 10m tomorrow, 5 Saturday and 20 Sunday planned. That'll be a 72m week which is highest ever. Not a bad swing given this week I should be in lanzarote probably getting about 20m in and eating and drinking lots. 
    Every covid has a silver lining
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes, I'd rather be on holiday but if I can't be then this is a pleasing second place. 

    10m easy this morning. 
  • Managers the ‘Path of Condie’ half in low 1.50s so pleased with that!!! 5 mins quicker than the trial run I did a few weeks ago.

    Maybe a flat sub 1.45 is possible next month when I go another half.

    what should I do when I only have 4 weeks? I’ll have to tape in 2 weeks again!! 
  • Sorry that was riddled with typos! I can’t see an edit button  :sweat_smile:
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Good work, in line with what Skinny suggested. 

    You need 4 or 5 days recovery (or I would) then crack on with a 3-4 day taper, not 2 weeks. My coach believes most people completely over taper. My taper for a mara is usually 10 days with a very big peak  session 12 days out and a last big run 14-15 out. 
  • Thanks for the tips so far. <div>
    </div><div>Here’s one question and it’s probably an easy one. So my first 4 miles averaged 8.25, followed by 2 miles at 7.45. Making the 6 mile split about 49mins.

    The second part of the race effectively sends you back up and down the same hill at a steeper gradient with a slightly higher altitude for 3 miles as you then drop 800 feet over the last 4 miles. So my splits continued with 2 x 10min miles (it was bloody steep!), 2 x 8.40, 2 x 8.00 with a final mile of 9.40! Yup I faded quite badly despite that last mile being downhill!

    My question is how do I prevent fading? Is it simply setting out too fast or should I be doing longer runs as part of my training?

    In all honest come through 1 hour mark I felt my legs just go!! I really felt like I was running on empty by mile 8. </div>
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    Hi everyone. 

    Yes, a long drive but we stopped overnight in Metz so manageable. The main stress was working out covid regs, but in the end we had no issues at all. 

    Skinny: we were in Wroclaw, in the south. Can thoroughly recommend it: great cosmopolitan place, Manchester-size, but with good weather and pretty buildings. Now moved on to Lower Silesia, in the hills. I've been to Krakow before - another great central European city!

    Amazing mileage, DT. Going well!

    Ronin: good effort. I'm no expert on tapering but when it comes to fading at the end of the run I suspect it's both aerobic capacity (which you have to train) and managing your effort (which you also have to practice, esp. on hills - see below!)

    12.5 hilly miles today (2000ft), 8:45 pace. Felt shite but pushed through, basically going too hard given how I was feeling after a couple of restless nights and moderate quantities of  piwo. Apparently was trying pretty much as hard as my 5k. Always disappointing when Garmin labels your effort unproductive as well! Nevertheless it's a beautiful place and I'm looking forward to some more productive miles in the next couple of weeks. :)

    28 miles this week which is well above average for me. Aiming for 1000 miles by the end of the year, so ~23 miles per week from here on.

    *To correct my prev post: Glycerine 19s, not 14s.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Ronin, there are generally two reasons gor a slow down;

    1. Under trained for distance.
    2. Too fast/hard in the first half or so. 

    You need to work out which. 

    Myox, every run I've done in last 10 days has been rated unproductive. This followed a period of 2 weeks where I was productive or peaking. My vo2 has dropped from 64 to 61 in last week. I put it down to the humidity in main as my hr is higher for paces. 

    I've had a lads weekend in Krakow. Good city. 

    72m week completed. Feel OK for it. 
  • Ronin - generally I would say fading at the end of a hilly race is common because there are no free steps when you have to run up hill when you're tired. However generally fading at the end of a race is a mixture of stamina and pacing.

    Stamina - the only cure is miles - if you're running a half you should have a couple of 15 milers in the bag (but only do 15 if you've built up to it and do them much slower than race pace).

    Also simply weekly miles at an appropriate level but again you can't suddenly increase these.

    Pacing - it helps to do sessions on your own like 3*2 miles (off about 2 mins recovery) at theoretical Half Marathon pace because that lets you know if the pace you are planning to run is achievable. If you can't do the session then the pace you are planning is probably too fast and so you will fade. If you can do the session on your own then on race day with a bit of a taper (a week for a Half is plenty like DT suggests you don't need 2 weeks) and a liberal sprinkling of race day magic dust then you'll be able to hold that pace for 13 miles.
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