Overdone it?



  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Ronin, there are generally two reasons gor a slow down;

    1. Under trained for distance.
    2. Too fast/hard in the first half or so. 

    You need to work out which. 

    Myox, every run I've done in last 10 days has been rated unproductive. This followed a period of 2 weeks where I was productive or peaking. My vo2 has dropped from 64 to 61 in last week. I put it down to the humidity in main as my hr is higher for paces. 

    I've had a lads weekend in Krakow. Good city. 

    72m week completed. Feel OK for it. 
  • Ronin - generally I would say fading at the end of a hilly race is common because there are no free steps when you have to run up hill when you're tired. However generally fading at the end of a race is a mixture of stamina and pacing.

    Stamina - the only cure is miles - if you're running a half you should have a couple of 15 milers in the bag (but only do 15 if you've built up to it and do them much slower than race pace).

    Also simply weekly miles at an appropriate level but again you can't suddenly increase these.

    Pacing - it helps to do sessions on your own like 3*2 miles (off about 2 mins recovery) at theoretical Half Marathon pace because that lets you know if the pace you are planning to run is achievable. If you can't do the session then the pace you are planning is probably too fast and so you will fade. If you can do the session on your own then on race day with a bit of a taper (a week for a Half is plenty like DT suggests you don't need 2 weeks) and a liberal sprinkling of race day magic dust then you'll be able to hold that pace for 13 miles.
  • Nice running MYOX and I've never managed to stray further afield than the 3 cities but have heard it's beautiful in the mountains.

    Are you able to speak Polish (other than beer ;-)) - I had a go for a while and had a tape in the car but it's a complete bitch of a language to try and learn so I gave up in the end.

    Funny running week for me last week - 0,14,4,0,14,0,6 for 38 total.

    I tried to do a hilly 6 round the streets of Carlisle and was disappointed to discover that despite running up and down lots of hills my total feet of climbing was only 417. Really need to be in the mountains to get the numbers up to the 2000 feet that you ran.

    How many weeks until your taper DT?
  • DT19 said:
    Myox, every run I've done in last 10 days has been rated unproductive. This followed a period of 2 weeks where I was productive or peaking. My vo2 has dropped from 64 to 61 in last week. I put it down to the humidity in main as my hr is higher for paces. 

    Is this Garmin 'unproductive' DT ? I find that it's fairly accurate, probably as my level is way below yours and it's a bit more accurate. As much as I know the odd unproductive is not making any difference the OCD in me gets annoyed... Did manage to get my 54 vo2 yesterday though, never been at that before (even though actual measured vo2 max is probably more like 34 but I'll take it)

    Pacing - it helps to do sessions on your own like 3*2 miles (off about 2 mins recovery) at theoretical Half Marathon pace because that lets you know if the pace you are planning to run is achievable. If you can't do the session then the pace you are planning is probably too fast and so you will fade. If you can do the session on your own then on race day with a bit of a taper.
    I agree here these sessions are great. Had a more pacey version of 4m on 3m off but 30s quicker than what I plan on a pace being. Honestly I wasn't sure I could do it but it gives you confidence once you do manage them. 

    Had some good sessions recently with a really poor HM but hey ho...
    Strava: https://www.strava.com/athletes/garrethsmith
  • DT - I didn't see your post before I wrote mine - I was still on the last page hence why I said nearly the same thing although suggests it's decent advice if we both said it.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited August 24
    Skinny, yes concur with you as per post. 

    That is an unorthodox way of running 38m in a week. 

    Re taper I only do a 2 week taper though I have a massive session 10 days out of 3 x 5k at hmp. Lewis believes runners taper far too much and also that a session takes 7-10 days to effect fitness so my miles/effort fall off a cliff after that session. 

    DH, to an extent this time of year never yields the best vo2 data or hr just because of the warmth and humidity. Whilst 18c for a 10m run doesn't seem much, it's a lot more than 5c. 

    I am largely at the bottom of vo2 max drop. It works off heart rate variability and as I've been on holiday mode the last 2 weeks I've been drinking a lot more. Alcohol has a huge impact on HR. Today's run has shifted it back up to 63. 

    Big session today. 4k at hmp off 3 mins then 4 x 1k off 1 min at 10kp then 4k at hmp off 3 mins. It's the final 4k that get you as the 1k reps really push the hr up. All came up very well though. These Tuesday sessions will gradually increase in volume over next 4 weeks peaking at the above stated session. Lewis says it's something he does with some of his thoroughbred youngsters and has backed off a bit with me but feels I'm ready to cope with them and they'll really elevate me. 

    My wife and daughter flew on hols today at 6.30am. After 6 weeks, my sons passport then arrived at 8.40! Furious is an understatement. I'm back at work tomorrow. Luckily he's in footy camp all week by day. 
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Afternoon all, 

    DT - I like the look of that session, although I probably wouldn't be saying that if I attempted it. I enjoyed the Soar sessions I was doing earlier tis year which had a similar vibe with a mix of tempo and intervals combined into one session. That is really really annoying for you about your son's passport.

    Not sure if you saw the conversation between myself and muddy on Strava at the weekend but i'm up in Birmingham for the cricket in a few weeks and planning on having a go at the new parkrun round Edgbaston reservoir, it looks flat and muddy reckons it's a quick course (he was volunteering there). Fancy a go at at a fast parkrun? I reckon you'd be close to my mate who's coming with me (16:30ish parkrun)...

    Skinny - strange way to get up to 38 miles but a decent total non the less. 

    MYOX - that's a long drive! I've driven to Berlin before and that was quite an effort. I went to Gydnia a few years ago, had a great time. Any chance of a Polish parkrun?

    Ronin - nicely done on your race. Good advice from Skinny and DT. 

    I'm still doing a bit of running and cycling but not as much as I want to. I've got a fell race tomorrow evening but I'm not expecting great things as I've just given blood and I usually feel a bit slugish for a couple of days after donating. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Tommy  when is that date? I've seen a lot of stuff about that parkrun. About time Birmingham had a proper second parkrun. None of the others so far have put a dent in canon hill numbers. 

    My sons footy season starts first Saturday in September so parkrun will prove tricky. On a plus, he's now quit rugby after 6 years so I have Sunday mornings back. 

    It looks like I'm just going to train through to London now without a race. It worked well over winter. With London not being in April I'm looking at maybe skipping a spring mara and focusing for a while on 10k to half then running Berlin next September.  

    I finally watched the kipchoge documentary today. Really enjoyable. He doesn't seem to think the alphafly make him faster, but he does say they allow him to recover really fast. Certainly something I've found everytime I've raced in them. I guess if you do all your training in them it does make a big difference to where you can push yourself. 

    Easy 12m tomorrow lunchtime.  
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    18th September. Sounds like a decent plan for the next 12 months or so. I'm contemplating a spring marathon next year but may just leave it until the autumn. 
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    edited August 28
    Hi all. No Polish parkrun for me but 22 miles so far this week with another 6 or so in the diary for tomorrow. 2021 is now my best running year ever, with 576 miles logged.

    I did 9.5 flattish (500ft ascent) road miles today, an unusual session for me. Tried basically to keep it steady, HR below 170 (my max is somewhere around 195), which came out at 7:26 pace, 164 av HR, including one slow warm down mile or so. Felt good afterwards, as if I'd worked a bit but not particularly tired. 

    I'm really trying to find my tempo pace. It's one of these categories I find hard to pin down, especially when it comes to hillier runs. How have you guys worked out the correct pace/effort?

    Incidentally Strava now thinks I'm productive again. I think the main difference is that it's now rainy and a lot cooler here. My VO2 max comes in at 57, a fair bit shy of DT! 

    Hope everyone's well. 
  • The 1,000 for the year must still be within your reach MYOX - need about 25 a week?

    Just from a recent race time and then use an online tool for the zones but that's pace per mile on the flat rather than knowing the right effort - I suppose you use the zone on the flat and then try and find the same level of effort on the hills although going up hill I always seem to be at high effort!

    0,16,2,3,0,0,0 - 21 total - life got in the way a bit over the weekend walking with friends.

    Yesterday tried  something a bit different - went out for 3 hours but running 12 mins, walking 3 - managed to cover 19.5 miles in the 3 hours and felt much better at the end than if I'd run 2 and a half hours although similarly creaky this morning.

    Thinking of doing a 30 mile local ultra in mid September but I'm short on miles and too late to bank the extra I need so might do more walking than running.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Myox,  the garmin vo2 calculator seems to like higher miles and mara pace to half pace tempo runs. Mine went back to 64 today. 

    Tempo depends how you define it. For me tempo is a type of session like intervals. Threshold is a very specific point within a tempo. I tend to fo a lot of work at hmp to 10kp. Given threshold is 10m pace you then tend to spend most of the session bouncing around threshold. Working just above or just below threshold is effective. 

    67.5m last week gor 2nd highest ever. 10m at 160bpm Sunday came out 6.18. 

    Today was a meaty session of 6,5,4,3,2,2,3,4,5,6 mins at HMP off 90s at mp. Covered 8.77m and went through 10k in 37.53. 287m for August, highest ever monthly by 32m. 
  • Not sure how many I can count I did last week.

    19.5 (ran 12mins, walked 3 so about 2 miles of walking), 6, 2, 0, 12 (with 3,000 feet of ascent but plenty of walking on the steep bits), 0, 3.5 for 43 miles total.

    Average pace for the 12 was about 11 mins. 'Ran' up a fell, down the other side and then 'ran' back so like hill repeats  :#
    Got about 2 miles up the first side before giving up and walking briskly up the rest - hard work. Coming back the other way was similar. 

    MYOX I'm curious if when you do fell running there is some walking involved? 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Solid miles, Skinny. Anything on the horizon now re races?

    I rounded off last week on 63m with a big session Friday of 6m easy then 6m at mp- 1m easy- 6m mp- 1cd. Run the half mara bit (obviously I added 0.11m on) in 1.26.25. It was quite a tough session in 18c, having only ever done a session that big in winter.

    Two more bigger weeks to come before taper. Todays session will be tough in the late summer hot spell.

  • Another great week for you DT. 1:26 HM on your own - happy days.

    I'm racing 5k tomorrow night provided I don't get another migraine and then doing the 30 mile ultra on 18th September but that will be a run walk strategy just to have the experience.

    Also my goals for 2021 in January were a sub 20 5k - done twice, hopefully 3 times by Thursday, sub 40 10k - 38:44 done and a sub 1:30 HM (possibly the easiest of the 3).

    The local HM is on 3rd October so hopefully I'm fit enough to tootle round that in 6:45s but I haven't entered yet.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Sounds good, Skinny. I'm sure you've got 6 45 in there. 

    I did 10k yesterday alternating between hmp and mp. Didn't get out until 12.30 and by then my app says it was 28c. Managed well and completed in 38.30. Easy 12m again today over lunch in 28c. 

    Recovery run tomorrow.  I was due to return to the office next week which was crap time as it's my final big week. Due to IT delays we are now not returning until first week in October.  Means I can complete this cycle and run london and go back and ease into long lunches and early darts over a couple of months as opposed diving straight in.
  • Nice work in the heat DT - nothing can stop the DT machine at the moment it seems.

    It was still pretty warm at 6:30 last night for my 5k.

    Gave it everything I had for an 18:55 just missing out on my 18:53 target for 80% WAVA. A little disappointed but sub 19 was a secondary goal and it will still be my highest ever WAVA so not to be sniffed at.

    5k PB is 18:33 and for various reasons I really didn't give the training full beans mid summer so perhaps I'm still capable of more than just looking for WAVA improvements but by next year I'll be another year older so it will be just that little bit harder.

    Anyway that's the sprint stuff out of the way - time to focus on travelling 30 miles a week on Saturday.  :#
  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭
    DT still smashing out great training, you are excellent form for the marathon.

    Skinny, given what you have been doing over the past while, 18.55 is impressive, enjoy your ultra and hopefully a race report.

    Still lurking on here, hoping to get out tonight for some speed work, last couple of weeks have managed a Thursday session with 4mls at somewhere near tempo pace i think  :confused:

  • Guys, I’m not having any luck!!<div>
    </div><div>I must be on my 6th cold in the last 8 weeks, add to that a couple of chest infections, then last week the dreaded norovirus. 48 hours of vomiting and not being able to even sip water. By Monday morning I felt surprising fresh, managing to run 3 short 5-6 milers since then. I’m struggling to hit 8 minute miles which doesn’t bode well for a sub 1.45 half. </div><div>
    </div><div>So that’s the problem - I have another half on Saturday. I think a pb would be a miracle… what should I do this week? </div><div>
    </div><div>Would it be madness to try to run an 8-10 miler close to race pace Monday or Tuesday or should I just accept the weekends run is what it is. I’ve ran so few miles these last couple of weeks, losing about 4 pounds, but it feels as though the weightloss won’t compensate for losing form. </div>
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Ronin, i'd go as far as saying don't bother racing sunday. Give yourself time to recover full and get some decent training in. You already know that it's more likely than not sunday won't go well based on your expectations. If your mindset on it changes and you view the race itself as a decent workout and pick a less ambitious outcome you could use it as the platform for the next phase.

    As for what you do this week, there is literally nothing you can do that will make you fitter as soon as sunday. In any event, trying to run 8-10m at pb pace when feeling good and having a good lead in, in the week before a race is a recipe for disaster. Personally, i'd just get some easy miles in this week and throw in some strides.

    At most, just to sharpen up and tune in, I might do say 6 x 4 mins at race pace tomorrow. It won't make you fitter though for sunday.

    Skinny, that's a great outcome and I definitely would agree that the 5k pb is there to be chased down.

    Good to hear from you, Kevin. You seem to be doing longer on the bike lately from what I see on strava?

    Last long run for me yesterday of 22m, paced to be out for the 2.49 I hope to be out in London. Legs feel decent enough today. Did spin at 8.30 but at a light effort just to flush the legs.

  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Afternoon all, 

    Ronin - can't add anything more to what DT said. Keep it light this week and don't go for a PB on Sunday.

    DT - looking in great shape for London. 

    Skinny - that's a very good time considering the disrupted build up etc. 5K PB is definitely within reach. Good luck with the ultra!

    Kevin - good to see you're still around. 

    I'm still ticking over, work has calmed down a little bit so hoping to get a few more miles in. It was the penultimate race in the Dartmoor fell series last week; the shortest race of the series but with a vomit inducing hill to run/clamber up and then run back down. 2.6 miles with 750ft of elevation gain was properly lung busting and quad thrashing in equal measure, comedy splits of 12:55, 7:10, 5:40. 

    Edgbaston reservoir parkrun this coming Saturday, not in particularly good shape but will give it a go. 
  • Thanks guys.

    I could probably draw a really crude graph to express my performance this year with one line showing steady weight-loss nearing 30 pounds. I’m 12 stone 8 now - thank god!!!!

    The other line representing performance that was plateauing come July/August as the extra pounds couldn’t off-set general training fatigue from 25 unrelenting weeks without rest.

    Before norovirus struck I did 2 solid 10-12 milers that week, but last week was a write off. Today I felt great (probably due to the drop in mileage), and ran my 6 mile route 90 seconds faster without trying.

    The plan therefore is one more short easy run then race this weekend. I’ll try to hover around 8 min miles for as long as I can. I’ve ran 10 miles in 8 minute miles previously so the rest, taper and further weight loss might mean a marginal pb is possible.
  • Well done on the weight loss Ron, good luck in your HM.

    Loving the splits Tommy - 12:55 - although I've done a few miles at slower than that last couple of weeks!

    Last week for me was 0, 2.3 with a few strides, 9 incl 5k race, 0,0 and then a full dress rehearsal 12 miles over first 6 miles of the ultra course with 1570 feet of altitude gain (and then back again), 0 on Sunday.

    Quiet week planned for this week aiming to arrive fresh and ready on Saturday morning.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Great splits, Tommy. I am away this weekend in Dorset so definitely won't make parkrun.

    Good luck Saturday, Skinny.

    Bashing on this week. 5m recovery Monday then a big 8 x 1m off 1 min session on Tuesday, average pace about 5.53. Easy 13.1 yesterday at 7.58mm for my last MLR. 5m recovery later today.

  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭
    DT big session, maximum i could do with the running group is 5reps at a push.

    Good luck racers this weekend and park run 

    Doing the Strathaven 50 ride this Sunday, hopefully weather will be fine. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Good luck with that, Kevin.

    I've progressed probably over the last 18 months to building my sessions up to be able to cope with that. Next tuesday is peak session of 3 x 5k at HMP off 3 min jog. That's been making me feel a bit sick since my final block appeared on my schedule 4 weeks ago. I've done 4k- 4 x 1k- 4k and 12k alternating between hmp and mp building up to it, but that just looks nasty. Then my taper properly begins.

    Easy 5m yesterday, 10m tempo over lunch, last one of those. Anticipating receiving the final instruction guide from London this afternoon as well.

  • Did the Scottish half this morning and I felt pretty fresh despite a recent bout of norovirus. I was averaging 7.35 per mile all the way to mile 9 which I knew was unsustainable but I felt I needed to capitalise as I knew I would fade. <div>
    </div><div>That’s what happened… a couple of 8 minute miles… then an 8.30, then an 8.50!!! Lots of people passing me by but I knew I was getting sub 1.45 so I had a smile on my face. I did it just over 1.43 which I was really pleased with.

    To prevent the fade I need to up the long run. This year I only did a handful of 10 milers, a 12 and a half last month. </div><div>
    </div><div>Is it as simple as just saying, once a fortnight I’ll add 0.5 miles onto my longest run and try to built up to 15-16 miles over winter?</div>
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Ronin, that's a decent outcome in the circumstances. I find getting used to running 15m as a routine long run is very useful for half marathons. Yes just slowly increasing it that way will work. It is useful also, if life allows, to have a second longish run in the week at about 9m to supplement it.

    Skinny, how did it go?

    Tommy, I saw that Edgbaston parkrun was pretty stacked up top as a result of Canon Hill being off. Did you see Muddy?

    Tempo went well enough Friday, followed by 16m yesterday for a 61m week. Volume dropping down this week but still keeping the sessions.

  • Well done Ronin - sounds like you successfully followed a strategy of asking us what you should do, getting our advice and then just doing what you wanted in the first place and it all worked out for you  B)

    Normally one is the best person for judging what one can and can't do on any given day (I sound like the Queen) so internet advice is sometimes useful but not always.

    Is 1:43 a PB then?

    Good mileage DT - on the home stretch now.

    I was 13th out of 85 starters and completed the 30.9 miles with 3250 feet of elevation in 5:34 although splits tell the story.

    2:37 for first 15 where most of climbing and worst paths. (10:28mm average)

    2:57 for last 15.9 mainly flat miles the last 7 of which were on tarmac. (11:08mm average)

    Considering I was massively underprepared mileage wise and terrain wise plus I hadn't practiced any fuelling strategies or even what I ate and drank at all then I'm pretty content with that. 

    I might write slightly more about it when I get a minute.

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    Skinny to think it wasn't that long ago that you were wondering if you would be able to run again it's amazing that you have now done an ultra! Great stuff.

    Ronin - sounds like a good result for you there.

    DT - your mega sessions continue to amaze me. Even when I was fit I wouldn't have attempted half of the sessions you do. I'm sure you will be well rewarded come race day.
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