Speed Endurance for 10k?

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  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Good point. Just checked based on recent ish results and it has me at 6.45, so I've been doing them about right. 

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    The 6:55-7:00 was based on 42 minute 10k time.  I'm squeezing out threshold pace at something more like 6:45 now based on the 10k race last month which would have been about 40 mins but for the extra 1.6k tagged on at the end!

    If you're at somewhere between 40-41, you're probably looking at more like 6:45 I think.

    Lit - you must be on for smashing a 10k soon after your excellent VMLM performance?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Yep, my last 10k was 40.41 in December. Need to get a parkrun in soon to work out where I am following vmlm. 

  • Thanks CC and Lit both, really helpful.

    CC - you say "you surely can't be far away from a sub-40 minute" - well, I hope not!  But given how hard I've found it (actually, impossible) to shave a mere 2 or 3 minutes off my marathon time, I've had my doubts.  Hence my initial post.  Fortunately the replies have given me both hope, and motivation.  Will report back periodically on how I get on.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    GK - what I meant from that is that 3 x 1 mile at 6 minute pace is a pretty tasty session.

    I'm pretty sure I could do it, but I don't really fancy it that much yet!! It's a good bit quicker than sub 40 pace albeit less than half the total distance, but still...

    If you slowed that down a bit to say 6:20-6:24 per mile, could you do 4 reps?  Then build to 5 reps maybe?  I think if you could do 5 at that pace, you'd be in pretty good shape to go sub 40.  It's a bit similar to the 8 x 1k session, except you get less overall rest time (if you have the same rest between your mile reps as you do between your 1k reps).

    I've got that 8 x 1k reps session again next week actually.  9 days out from my next 10k race.  Here's hoping I don't get sent the wrong way this time and manage to clock a decent sub 40 time!

  • OK, will give 4x1600m at 6.20 pace a try within the next 10 days (post-mara legs still a bit heavy this week for speed work) and see how it goes.

    Re tempo, I was doing my LT sessions in marathon training at about 6.45/mile pace so  will stick with that for now.

    Best of luck with your own goals - I would be biting my knuckles in irritation if I was on for a sub-40 and got sent the wrong way.  At least that isn't an issue at Battersea Park!

  • Genghis Khan wrote (see)

    OK, will give 4x1600m at 6.20 pace a try within the next 10 days (post-mara legs still a bit heavy this week for speed work) and see how it goes.

    Re tempo, I was doing my LT sessions in marathon training at about 6.45/mile pace so  will stick with that for now.

    Best of luck with your own goals - I would be biting my knuckles in irritation if I was on for a sub-40 and got sent the wrong way.  At least that isn't an issue at Battersea Park!


    4 x 1600m would be a very good session. One week out from the race I try a 4 mile time trial at race pace. I wouldn't keep the recovery between each rep too long, 2 minutes max.......and I'd try and reduce the recoveries as the weeks pass.

    As for your tempo; 20 secs above 10k race pace sounds about right.

    Best of luck, should be a very attainable goal.

     

  • EffilloEffillo ✭✭✭

    Hi, 

     

    Been  along term lurker on this thread as 10k is my preferred distance at the moment. I started out with little running at the end of last year.  Ran a 51min 10k in November.  I did little until the start of the year when i decided to start up properly again.  I initially banged in the miles for the first month then moved onto a more structured plan, with my time falling over the course of 4 races (a lot i know but i wanted to gauge progress), I am now down to 44mins 30secs for 10k and 20mins10secs for 5k.  Id say it is my long distance fitness that is letting me down at the moment.

     

    I am looking for a bit of feedback on my plan, I have built it up using paces from mcmillan, I am aiming initially for a 42min 10k and eventually sub 40min.

     

    Mon - Recovery - 5k at 5.45min/km

    Tues - Intervals on treader - 2k warm - 6x800m @4min/km - 2k cool

    Weds - rest

    Thurs - 8k at 5.35min/km

    Fri - 8k at 5.35min/km

    Sat- Rest

    Sun - 12-15km at 5.45/km (trying to increase this)

     

    I do find my lower legs get sore at times, i try to stretch and run through this.

     

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Hi Effillo - the plan looks decent actually.  I think your intervals session could be changed up a bit so it isn't the same thing all the time.

    My 10k training the past 2-3 months has been a combination of 1k intervals, 400m intervals and hill intervals.  The big 10k session being 8 x 1k (@ target race pace) off 90 sec recoveries.  But building up to that.  I think I went 6 x 1k (@ PB pace), 2 x 4 x 1k (first set @ PB pace, second set a bit quicker - my PB 42 mins, did the second set at about 41 min pace), 2 x 5x400m (obviously quicker - can't remember the paces now actually - but McMillan paces would be probably about right), 3 x 5x400m, 8 x 1k @ target pace (40 mins for me), then I did a few hill sessions (running fast up, jogging down) etc.

    I'd say you need some threshold work instead of one of the easy runs on Thursday/Friday.  Threshold intervals are pretty good for that.  You should get a good indication of your LT pace from McMillan too.  I've done something like 5 x 6 mins (90 sec recoveries), 4 x 8 mins, 3 x 10 mins, 3 x 15 mins, 3 x 20 mins.

    I've gone from 42 minute 10k to about 40 minute 10k shape in a couple of months.  Did my first 5k at the weekend in 19:34.  Couple of 10k races in May, which will hopefully be sub 40 if all goes to plan.

  • EffilloEffillo ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the feedback. I do mix up the intervals a little just to keep then interesting. As far as threshold goes is that the same as tempo? I tend to switch one of the thurs/fri runs for a tempo every other week. 2k warm up, 4k @4.30p/km then 2k cool down. I really struggle with sore calves and shins on the cool down though at a slower pace, I took this to mean it may have been a little too much too soon so have taken a few weeks off them.
  • Woke up this morning feeling disproportionately heavy-legged after 2 x 10k recovery runs at the weekend (from the P&D post-marathon mesocycle), and various toes and other bits of feet still sore & banged up from VLM.  I've decided to take this Mon-Fri off completely (apart from core exercises) in the hope that come the weekend, I'll be fresh, healed and raring to start some more demanding sessions.  

    I'm sure such slacking will be frowned upon by serious runners who have probably not had five days off in the last five years.  But I feel honour-bound to report negative as well as positive progress!

  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    Genghis - I wouldn't worry about taking 5 days off, especially post marathon. you'll come back fitter and fresher. you'll still have your marathon fitness bu just start afresh from next week and build back up progressively -  don't go throwing yourself back into pre marathon volume. 

    Effillo - agree with CC82. If by 'long distance fitness' you're alluding to speed endurance, then you need to be doing a weekly tempo. 4km (2.5 miles) every other week isn't really going to make a dent. by running them as timed intervals like CC says, you can easily and progressively build the amount of tempo you're doing week on week. The 4.30p/km is the right pace though.

     

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    To wade back in on the threshold pace thing.

    I put down a 19:34 5k PB on Saturday.  I ran a threshold session today (3 x 10 mins off 90 sec).  Came out at 6:46 pace for the first rep then 6:43 for the second two reps.  That felt pretty comfortable to be honest.

  • What is better speed work for 10k out of 3* 2miles @ 10k goal pace or 6*1600 @ 10k goal pace?

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭
    There probably isn't a correct answer to that. Some would say 3x2 miles because it's more like the actual race where as some would say 6x1 mile because you're less likely to knacker yourself but you get the same benefit.



    I think somewhere in between that may be that you build up to the 3x2 session and the 6x1 session would be a prelude at some point of the plan perhaps?
  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    what's stopping you from doing both? do one 1 week, then the other the following week. mix it up - same volume, same pace but different structure

  • RoadWarrior wrote (see)

    What is better speed work for 10k out of 3* 2miles @ 10k goal pace or 6*1600 @ 10k goal pace?

    Well, 3x2 miles at goal pace would be the harder workout. But most people wouldn't cover 6 miles at 10K goal pace in any workout whatever the splits.

    I tend to work towards achieving 4 miles continuous at 10K goal pace in training. A couple of months before the race 4x1600m with 90 sec recoveries would be perfect. Every couple of weeks reduce the recovery time and/or increase the splits (1.5 mile, 1.5 mile & 1 mile or 2 x 2 miles with a decent recovery).

     

    One week before the race I attempt my 4 mile time trial at 10K race pace. To be honest, every time I've achieved this in training, I've been able to sustain the pace for the extra 2.25 miles on race day. Seems to work!

  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭
    Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)
    Well, 3x2 miles at goal pace would be the harder workout. But most people wouldn't cover 6 miles at 10K goal pace in any workout whatever the splits.

    Please tell this to my coach Jamie. 2x 5x 1k session for me tomorrow night @ 10k pace (90 second recoveries between reps; 3 minutes between sets)

     

  • Johnas wrote (see)
    Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)
    Well, 3x2 miles at goal pace would be the harder workout. But most people wouldn't cover 6 miles at 10K goal pace in any workout whatever the splits.

    Please tell this to my coach Jamie. 2x 5x 1k session for me tomorrow night @ 10k pace (90 second recoveries between reps; 3 minutes between sets)

     

    Tough session! Poor you.....

    Its not quite 3 x 2miles at 10K pace; but it doesn't sound pleasant.

    I think I'll stick with my 4 mile rep training; at least till my times stagnate! Ha ha

  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    No but Saturday's session was 2miles, 1.5 miles, 2x 1mile @ 10k pace off 4 min recoveries. Not quite 6 mile volume but I was glad of those recoveries!

  • Johnas - out of interest, what's your 10k time like at the moment, and what are you trying to get it to?  Something pretty tasty, it sounds like.

  • Been lurking but missing out too... Need to get involved here...

    Jamie - Interesting you say about 3 x 2 mile session. We all know sessions vary from person to person though? agree? 

    In my build up to Eastleigh 10KM (target race) 

    3 x 2 mile was one of my main staple sessions

    I did 5/6 x 1 mile (90s) or 9-12 x 400s (60s) as well.. No other sessions before hand

    I ran 3 x 2 mile of 3:00 recoveries on road and my best splits were something like (I did one lot faster around 10:3xs but back in December on track and then had some time off)

    10:41 / 10:44 / 10:45 

    I ended up running 33:00 dead which was 5:19 average....

     

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • Road Warrior - 

    This was my schedule for around 6 weeks 

    MONDAY - STEADY RUN

    TUESDAY - 10 X 400 (60s) I was running around 70s - Quicker than 5KM pace

    WEDNESDAY - MID STEADY RUN

    THURSDAY - 5/6 X 1 MILE (90s) I was running about 10KM pace maybe bit quicker - Like 5:15s at the time (However not knowing what I'd run come race day but I average 5:19) 

    FRIDAY - OFF

    SATURDAY - PARKRUN / TEMPO (run 4 miles) 

     

    The next week I'd switch out the 5/6 x 1 and run the 3 x 2 mile session - Sometimes I'd miss the tempo and do both sessions... 

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • Not sure what else topics people may wish to cover.. But here are some sessions my old coach gave me to try after Eastleigh 

    /members/images/450355/Gallery/SESSIONS.png

     

    I was away last week and he also got me to do this 

    2 sets of - 2KM (3:00) 5 x 400 (50s) = 8KM volume - I ran this all well inside my current 5KM PB pace :S 

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • Sogswash wrote (see)

    Been lurking but missing out too... Need to get involved here...

    Jamie - Interesting you say about 3 x 2 mile session. We all know sessions vary from person to person though? agree? 

    In my build up to Eastleigh 10KM (target race) 

    3 x 2 mile was one of my main staple sessions

    I did 5/6 x 1 mile (90s) or 9-12 x 400s (60s) as well.. No other sessions before hand

    I ran 3 x 2 mile of 3:00 recoveries on road and my best splits were something like (I did one lot faster around 10:3xs but back in December on track and then had some time off)

    10:41 / 10:44 / 10:45 

    I ended up running 33:00 dead which was 5:19 average....

     

    That 3 x 2mile session clearly works for you seeing as you ran 33 min dead. Super time there....

    I'll be interested to see how far I can blag my 4 mile workouts. My next 10K is in August. Its a hilly one, but I'm hoping for sub 34 as my next stop. Hopefully sub 33:30 on a flat one in October.

    I'll report back with my successes and/or failures. Ha ha

  • Yeah I guess it did + in combo with the others... 

    I've missed what the 4 mile workout is? Just a tempo combined with other sessions in the week? 

    Will be interesting to follow what sessions work well for other people, maybe a pattern will emerge and will benefit others greatly etc - or we learn what sessions to avoid image 

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • The 5 or 6* mile or 3* 2mile @ 10k pace may be too difficult. How about shorter reps: 8*1k or 10*800m or 20*400m?

    No idea what pace to run the reps because of shorter distance. Recovery time around  a minute.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    8 x 1k off one minute at desired 10k pace seems to be a pretty popular session about 10 days out over various threads.

  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    As with most things, its horses for courses. Sogwash is young and talented enough to be able to do 3 big sessions a week with only 1 day off and no recovery running but that's not necessarily true of us older folks where the potential for injury increases with such a schedule! 

    The key to any of these sessions has to be progression, building the session over the block of specific training. You wouldn't do 3*2 miles or 10*1k in week 1.

    I try to work to the rule of increasing only one of the session ‘elements’ at a time – either the total volume, rep duration or the intensity. A progressive plan could look something like

    6x 1k @ 10k pace

    2x 4x 1k @ 10k pace (rep duration and intensity the same but increased total volume)

    5* 1 mile @ 10k pace (total volume and intensity the same but increased rep duration)

    6* 1 mile @ 10k pace (rep duration and intensity the same but increased total volume)

    2x 5x 400m @ 5k pace (increased intensity but decreased volume and rep duration. Nb. Only 1 has increased)

    Reducing recoveries are another way of progressing a session of course. Reducing recoveries increases the stress on the body and makes the session harder so I probably wouldn’t change any other element in such cases.

  • Fair point by johnas -



    I am taking one day off each week though and come back into winter I'll probably drop a midweek session and do a steady into progressive tempo run for XC season..



    Depending how my body goes that may happen sooner..



    I did a lot of sport through my years + running and was lucky to stay injury free forever.. Only now I have a niggle but still I do tend to recover well after runs ..



    Everyone different though..



    8x1km (2:00 recovery) is a tough session !!!



    One thing I have noted comparing to other runners who are a little quicker : running similar ATM etc - the recoveries tend to be a lot shorter that what I've done ...



    Again I guess you can run harder and faster with longer recoveries in the same session as having smaller recoveries and running slower
    Pain is weakness leaving the body
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