Speed Endurance for 10k?

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  • Genghis Khan wrote (see)

    Johnas - out of interest, what's your 10k time like at the moment, and what are you trying to get it to?  Something pretty tasty, it sounds like.

    I'm doing the Highgate 10000m in a couple of weeks and would just like to get back near my PB of 33.15 

  • OK, so quite a lot quicker than me then!  Will aim off for that when deciding exactly how much to beast myself in the intervals...

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Glad to see my thread still very popular image

    Just to give you all an update been suffering a bit with injury over the last year so haven't been doing much, but all good now and been back in training for the last month and going well so far.

    Still haven't made the sub 40 10k, i got very close around a year ago with a 40:03 was gutted to be honest, started off to slow and ended up trying to make up time throught the race. Got a race in September so ill see if i can get that sub 40 image

  • As a runner of more modest ability, I've done 3x10mins at 10k pace with 3min recovery.

    The volume should be proportional to your overall training volume. 

  • That's a tough session Lou akin to the 3x 2miles for sure 

    Cliff - September gives you a good amount of time to build back up to knock those 3 seconds off. best of luck

  • More like 3x1.6 miles for me.

    I don't know what Gengis's typical training looks like, but my point is that off my typical ~30 mile per week, that's quite a big session and not something I would do regularly.

  • This will the first time I've ever trained specifically for 10k (and only have 6 weeks before first target race) but am coming off marathon training - and having this Monday-Friday off to get over a couple of post-mara aches and pains.  From this weekend I'll be in the ballpark of 35-40 miles, 5 runs a week with two quality sessions (one interval, one tempo) and following Moraghan principles re proportion of LSR and quality work to overall mileage. 

    Basically I expect to find the tempo work reasonably comfortable (having run 14k tempo in one block in marathon training); and the intervals/race pace work, pretty excruciating.  3x10mins at 10k pace sounds like a good hard session.

  • sounds spot on Genghis and a perfect plan. a 6 week plan off the back of marathon training is ideal. what's your target?

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭
    You can make big gains in 6 weeks for sure if the training is right. I went from about 42 min shape to about 40 min shape in 7 weeks of really good structured training.
  • Hi, do you mind if I join this thread? I found it a couple of days ago when it appeared in the latest threads list, and as it happens I'm planning to race some 10ks this summer so i've read through the thread over the last couple of days and found it very enlightening.

  • I'm not as fast as most of you chaps, but hoping to improve. I'm 35, started running around my 30th birthday. So you can get a gist of where I'm coming from, i'll summarise my running history (please feel free to skip):

    2008 - turned 30, realised I'd done no exercise since I was about 14 when I was dropped from the school rugby/football teams for being a bit shit. Entered a 10k, ran about 5-10 miles per week to "train" for it. Ran it in just over an hour. Felt fairly pleased with myself, and didn't run for another year.

    2009 - after a year of nothing, entered a half marathon, ran around 10mpw for about 2 months, completed in 2:05. Felt fairly pleased with myself and entered a Marathon for the following spring. Continued to run about 10mpw through the winter

    2010 - in preparation for my marathon debut in the spring, ran about 10-15mpw. Predicably, bombed around mile 18, suffered through to the end in 5:08. Felt fairly pleased with myself for at least finishing. Immediately entered a Half Marathon for the autumn, but stopped running altogether, did approx 20 miles over the summer to prepare for it. Did a 10k race a month before in just over an hour. Completed the Half in 2:04. Felt fairly pleased with myself and once again hung up my running shoes for the next 6 months.

    2011 - we're 3 years in now, and I've still not realised that running consistently is going to make this racing experience a lot more fruitful and enjoyable. I enter a Half marathon in the summer, run about 10mpw to train for it, and complete it in 2:00 and a few seconds. Felt fairly pleased with myself and didn't run another step for over a year.

    2012 - late in the year I have a revelation. Unsure why I keep entering races since I clearly don't bother with the training. I decide I can improve on 5:08 so enter a marathon for the following spring. I discover this site and through it, P&D's book on marathon training. I decide to follow their lowest volume plan the 18week up to 55mpw plan, for my upcoming marathon. In preparation I start to ramp up my training to approx 25mpw towards the end of the year

    2013 - running an avg 40mpw, with some peaks, I follow the P&D plan "reasonably" closely. I have some minor injuries and niggles, obviously a result of increasing the mileage too quickly, but for the most part training goes well. I run a 10k in 48:12 and then two weeks later in 46:25. I consider that I may be on for a sub4hour marathon. I complete the marathon in 4:19, feeling pretty disappointed, and determined to improve. Shortly after I injure myself and don't run for another 4 months. Late in the year I decide to enter a marathon for the following spring and again follow the P&D plan. I run around 30mpw towards the end of the year.

    2014 - I stick fairly closely to the P&D marathon plan, suffer no serious injuries, and complete the marathon in 3:53. en route to this I run a 10k in 47:05. This time suggests a potentially quicker marathon time, but I ran a fairly comfortable race and my main goal was to avoid a second half crash. I run a very slight negative split. i feel very pleased with myself, and decide to improve my 10k times over the summer.

    So, here I am. My 46:25 PB is a little stale (April 2013) so I'd like to improve that. My marathon legs have recovered and I feel ready to start doing some more 10k-specfic training. I've entered a 10k round Battersea park this Saturday morning. I've run the course before, it's pretty flat, and conditions should be good. I'm not sure if I'll be near my PB shape, but it'll give me a benchmark on which to improve.

    The same race organisers have 10ks scheduled in the same park in June and July, so hopefully I can improve on whatever I can muster this weekend.

    I'll be sticking my head into this thread to pester you more experienced

  • Welcome Ginger, looking like with simply increasing mileage you have made some big gains!



    From Monday I'm back doing my next new block of training and will post any new sessions or things I find here as well as my training thread.. I've ran some quick 5kms but I think my gut feeling I'd do best over 5 mile or 10km now...



    I messages my coach last night and hoping I get some new material and ideas to work with
    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • Thanks Sogswash. Yep, I started in a pretty unfit state, and was slow to realise the importance and benefits of consistency with running. Since i've been more consistent i've actually found pleasure in running, which is nice.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Hello AG.

    Delighted to see a few others joining this thread - it's got some absolute gems of advice throughout.

    Well done on cracking that sub 4 marathon.  My path to running is fairly similar to yours except that I never stopped exercising for 15 years - I had a solid background of football and being fairly active, so my early days 10k runs came out a bit quicker (varying from 46-54 mins), one HM of 1:54 and a couple of marathons (4:48 and 4:24) all off of terrible training.  Last year I started running about 20-25mpw and took the 10k PB down to 42:01 and the HM down to 97:33.

    This year with some EXPERT advice (let's see if he picks up on thatimage), I'm now running somewhere between 30-40mpw (aiming for about 40mpw normally, but a calf injury setback saw me cutting back on that a bit).

    The 10k PB is still to take a bashing following on from being misdirected on a 10k race in March - I was looking at probably just above 40 mins.  Ran my first 5k last weekend in 19:34 and aiming to go sub 40 in the 10k this month (I've got 2 shots at it!).  Also having a bash at the same HM as I did last year.  Not really sure what the plan is for it as I've been 10k training rather than HM training.  We'll see how it pans out.  Another 10k in June as well.

    So -  yeah - with some good structured 10k training (and you'll get loads of tips from this thread), I'm confident you'll smash up that PB.

    Back to the 10k specific sessions - I just did this:

    8 x 1k (off 90 sec)

    1. 3:58

    2. 3:56

    3. 3:57

    4. 3:56

    5. 3:55

    6. 3:54

    7. 3:56

    8. 3:56

    Feeling like I'm in good sub 40 shape after that.  I wouldn't have even said it was a tough workout to be honest...  The improved fitness is really coming through now.

  • Johnas wrote (see)

    sounds spot on Genghis and a perfect plan. a 6 week plan off the back of marathon training is ideal. what's your target?

    Sub-40, with anything better a bonus. 

    5 runs a week will be best case, I have a feeling work and family commitments may conspire to force it down to 4, but I hope that laying my cards out on here will help force me to stick to it.

     

  • Welcome AG, and enjoyed the honesty about the shit training in the early years.  

    Here's my shit training story.  Still can't quite believe it myself, but it's true, and hopefully good for a few yucks.

    At uni (i.e. 25 years ago) entered a HM with some friends "for a laugh", never having run before.  Didn't know any proper runners, and it was way before the interweb.  So unburdened by any expert advice, I devised my own training plan.

    Having decided I wanted to go sub 1.30 because it sounded good, I knew what my race goal pace was.  So I started off by running 3 miles (the furthest I could manage at the beginning).  I ran 3 miles every other day, as hard as I could manage, until I could do it at race pace.  Then I upped the distance to 4 miles, and kept running that distance as hard as I could until I could do it at race pace.  Then 5 miles, then 6, then 7... you get the picture.  Until I got to 12 miles (I figured the last mile would take care of itself and I was getting very tired doing 40 miles a week at race pace).

    Funnily enough, it did sort of work, in that I managed 1.29.45 on the day.  But I always wonder what I'd have been capable off if I'd tried a proper plan rather than one like this:

    - LSR as a % of weekly mileage: 0%                                                                               - number of LRs over target distance: 0                                                                                  - easy-pace runs as % of weekly total: 0%                                                                      - quality mileage as % of weekly total: 100%                                                                   - number of runs per week: 3/4 (every other day off because I was too tired)                 - intervals, tempo, VO2 max sessions: sorry mate, no idea what you're on about

    Postscript: I tried the same plan the next year, with the paces adjusted to 1.25 goal time.  Of course I got badly injured, which put me off running for the next 15 years.

     

     

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭
    Haha - that's a great training story - I can't believe you pulled off a sub 90 HM doing that.



    You must have been on the brink of injury the entire time.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Gk, I would say six weeks off the p and d will get you down to sub 40. I did Twp 10ks in mid July last year in 41.08 and 41.10. 7 weeks later following the basic moraghan type structure I did 39.50. That was without anywhere near the base mileage we will have now from p and d.

    I still don't feel much like doing any speed work since London. I'm off on hold for 10 days Sunday so I'm hoping to return with a new enthusiasm to get back to sub 40 shape. 

  • Enjoyed hearing your running journeys AG & GK. I don't think it's too dissimilar to most of us who have come to running late in life. Personally, I was a heavy smoker for 20 years before quitting in Dec 2011. As for exercise, well I would occasionally run to the off licence if getting close to closing time.

    Things looking good for sub 40 based on those reps CC82. Looking forward to your race report already

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭
    Johnas wrote (see)

    Enjoyed hearing your running journeys AG & GK. I don't think it's too dissimilar to most of us who have come to running late in life. 

    Except GK's, which is bonkers. image

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭
    literatin wrote (see)
    Johnas wrote (see)

    Enjoyed hearing your running journeys AG & GK. I don't think it's too dissimilar to most of us who have come to running late in life. 

    Except GK's, which is bonkers. image

    I think a lot of us thought that the GK approach would be the way to go.  I.e. run everything as hard as you can and you're bound to be able to go further at that pace etc.

    The only difference is that most of us try that for about 3 runs and get totally demoralised and/or injured.  I'm just impressed that he saw it all the way through from 3 miles to 13.1 miles.

    And then thinking if he could do it for sub 90, then why not sub 85?  Brilliant.  I wish he'd managed it for sub 85, then sub 80, then, well, you get the picture.  He would by now be Samir Haddad's idol.

  • Genghis Khan wrote (see)

    ...So I started off by running 3 miles (the furthest I could manage at the beginning).  I ran 3 miles every other day, as hard as I could manage, until I could do it at race pace.  Then I upped the distance to 4 miles, and kept running that distance as hard as I could until I could do it at race pace.  Then 5 miles, then 6, then 7... you get the picture.  Until I got to 12 miles (I figured the last mile would take care of itself and I was getting very tired doing 40 miles a week at race pace). 

     

    Funnily enough, one of my best mates (and running nemesis) is using this exact approach to training for his next Marathon. I finally beat his marathon PB last month, which has spurred him on to improve. We were out for a jog together recently and I was shocked when he was telling me this was his plan to run 3:30. The guy has run 10 marathons since 2000, his PB is 3:57. His usual marathon prep is to run once a week, for 13miles in about 8:00/mile pace. He reckons just by increasing the distance at this pace he'll be able to sustain it for 26miles. I got frustrated trying to explain why this wasn't the most effective way of conditioning his body. So now I'll just wait to see what happens in October, assuming he makes it that far without getting injured.

    In other news, I bagged a shiny new 10k PB on Saturday, of 45:22, down from 46:25 a year ago. Probably mostly a result of the marathon training i've done this winter. I'm intending to do an 8 week block of 10k-specific training (i.e. with actual speedwork) starting in a couple of weeks. It's actually more like two 4 week blocks, with a 10k race at the end of each of them. Hopefully can bring my time down to low 44's, we'll see how training goes.

  • I have a question for the more experienced 10k racers on this thread. I've seen some training plans that contain speed work where you run sections at "goal / target race pace". But how would you decide what's realistic goal race pace? Isn't this just a bit like the approach above, pick an arbitrary time and try to sustain it over increasing distances each week? One example I've seen involves running 6x1mile, then 2miles, plus 4x1miles, then 2mi, 2mi, 1mi, 1mi, then 3x2mi, then race. Do this every other week, over a period of 8 weeks, with alternate weeks doing 400m or 200m reps at 5k PB pace.

    This seems reasonable at first glance, but how would I know if i'm picking a target that's too soft or too hard?

    The counter argument to this is the VDOT - type approach suggested by Jack Daniels (not the spirit maker) of training to particular zones based on recent actual race times. This seems intuitively more sensible, as it's starting from where you are, rather than picking where you want to be and working backwards. Any thoughts on these two approaches?

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    AG - I vote for 'a bit of both' - set your target based on current performance. So you've just run 45:22, which is 7:18/mile. Now give yourself a 10k pace training zone of 7:13-7:18 and aim to hit that on your training runs. If you ran your next race in 7:13s, that would bring you in just under 45 minutes. But if you improve more than that over the next 8 weeks with the consistent training, you will notice because training at (close to) current 10k pace will give you a feel for what 10k intensity should feel like. If you do enough of that you will gradually get better at interpreting the feedback you get from your body from each session. In my opinion.

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Did my first race back yesterday, a local 4 mile race. went good did it in 27:11 (6:48 per mile pace) the last half a mile was a big hill, managed to be pacing at 6:29 per mile till i hit the hill, so training is going better than i thought, going to do a 5K next now, mid June and see if I can get close to my PB of 19:05.

  • Thanks Lit, that sounds like a sensible plan. I'm very motivated at the moment, really enjoying running, and looking forward to improving my times over the next few months image

  • Nice work AG and Cliff.  Encouraging for me that AG managed to knock a minute off the PB purely on the back of marathon training.

    12.5 miles easy on Sunday (8.10/mile); hills yesterday (by way of a gentle re-introduction to intervals, just 5 reps of about 105 secs each at 90% effort); and 4.5 mile recovery today.   Legs still feel a tad heavy post-marathon, so I'm rather dreading LT session later this week, but will give it a shot anyway.

  • Nice PB Agent Ginger - 

    In answer to your question here are my thoughts.. I was and hope to be continuously improving without to much hassle this year seeing as I've just returned and been running properly for 6 months or so. So for me constantly measuring how I am doing will be vitally important as I could effectively be taking training to easy or pushing to hard to soon 

    The way I have gauged sessions (It's basically 5-10km training I am doing) at goal pace is off my 5KM parkrun times and a bit of trial and error. I'd do a parkrun every so often and work off that over last few months

    I'd allow a month or so before improvement would show but say my 5KM was 5:10 pace - I knew then that'd for 10KM I could work with say 5:30 pace 9mcmillan calculator) see how it felt and then increase pace and work off 5:25s etc..

    So - I'd take the PB and say aim inside it by a minute or 30 seconds and work splits from that image Again the shorter the reps the faster than goal pace they should be (if that makes sense) 

    You could always start with smaller volume sessions and larger recoveries - making sure you hit the faster pace being consistent and over time add reps and reduce recovery... 

    I also use a HRM.. So I know by now roughly what my HR will be on a 400m through to tempo run and all my long and steady runs... I can see if I'm working well

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • For example my PB for 5KM is 15:52

    I did 10 x 400 (60s) yesterday. I averaged 69s - Now this is 4KM volume at 14:30 pace

    No way could I run that but it will develop my speed ..

    My 5 x 1 mile session (90s) would perhaps be ran at 5:05-10s now which would be about my expected race pace over the 5KM

     

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • AG - that's the 10km training plan I followed last year and managed to knock 2:30mins off my PB in December. I have been following it again for a 10k race this Sunday and did my last session of 3x2mile repeats at goal pace on Saturday. I'm on target - just! I think it does say that if you're not hitting the right pace around halfway through the schedule then you may need to reassess your goal pace.

    I have no scientific way of setting mine. I use a current race time as a starting point and then reduce it by an arbitrary amount! I like to think I'm nothing if not realistic though and as I get more experienced I've got better at judging what is a sensible target. At least I like to think so......!image

    My target for Sunday is as near to 48 minutes as I can manage! Current PB 49:28.

     

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