Speed Endurance for 10k?

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  • Last of the fast stuff for me today before the next 10k race on Saturday.

    Session was 2 x (2x800 off 3 min recoveries, then 2x400 off 1:30 recoveries), 4 mins between sets.

    Target was 3:03-3:08 for 800s and 1:30 for 400s.  I didn't get to the track this morning, so was doing it off the Garmin, which told me the reps were 805m and 402m (because they were pinged from Garmin Connect, which had the workout set up as 0.5miles and 0.25 miles)!  So, slightly longer than 800 and 400m...

    Came out at:

    1. 3:09

    2. 3:05

    3. 1:29

    4. 1:26

    5. 3:09

    6. 3:05

    7. 1:29

    8. 1:23

     

    Quite pleased with that - the even numbers were on the way back (slight tailwind and ever so slight decline, so a tad easier).  Pretty consistent and most importantly the pace didn't feel hard.  I'm in a pretty good place going into Saturday's race - should be a good race / big PB...!

  • Good luck for Saturday, CC82. Looks very consistent, and sounds like you were in control of the pace, so fingers crossed you'll get a great PB on the day.

  • AgentGinger wrote (see)

    I have a question for the more experienced 10k racers on this thread. I've seen some training plans that contain speed work where you run sections at "goal / target race pace". But how would you decide what's realistic goal race pace? Isn't this just a bit like the approach above, pick an arbitrary time and try to sustain it over increasing distances each week? One example I've seen involves running 6x1mile, then 2miles, plus 4x1miles, then 2mi, 2mi, 1mi, 1mi, then 3x2mi, then race. Do this every other week, over a period of 8 weeks, with alternate weeks doing 400m or 200m reps at 5k PB pace.

    This seems reasonable at first glance, but how would I know if i'm picking a target that's too soft or too hard? The counter argument to this is the VDOT - type approach suggested by Jack Daniels (not the spirit maker) of training to particular zones based on recent actual race times. This seems intuitively more sensible, as it's starting from where you are, rather than picking where you want to be and working backwards. Any thoughts on these two approaches?


    Yep, VDOT and McMillan running calculator are what I use when working out goal pace work whatever the distance I plan on racing.

    I have a 10 mile road race on Sunday morning. My last 'quality session' before the race was a few hours ago. After some easy miles I did four miles at goal pace. It felt like a slightly fast tempo.

  • CC82 - won't be around at the weekend, so just to say good luck, good skill, and I look forward to tales of ratified sub-40 glory on Monday.

  • Thanks GK - feeling good about the race tomorrow.  Much more so than in advance of my last bash at the sub40, when I was nursing the beginnings of a calf injury and hadn't really done anything in a race close to 40!!

    I've got that race under my belt where I know that I ran pretty close to 40 in pretty tough conditions, since ran a windy sub 20 parkrun and the training has been going great.  No niggles, haven't missed any runs since that 9 days out at the end of March and loads of cracking sessions under my belt.

    2.30pm tomorrow can't come soon enoughimage

  • 40:18 today.



    Nearly 2 minutes off the PB - so happy with that. I thought I'd be disappointed if I went close but not under 40. I'm not though - happy with the time and how I ran the race. I found myself pretty isolated from about 1k to 9k really - bit of a solo effort. Fairly fast start as always - was at about 3:50 per km so let the group go that I was sticking to but I wonder if I might have done well to stick with them because everyone else round about me dropped back massively and I was just in a no man's land running on my own. A bit windy on the way out which was just enough to make me not push on too much. Wasn't bold enough to just go after it in case I blew up in the second half but finished strong and don't really feel like I was in a race today so I could have pushed harder.



    Another 10k race next week - hopefully I can take a small chunk off the time and go under 40 minutes.
  • 10k speed work outs:

    3 x 2 mile repeats @ 10k pace with 4 mins jog recovery or

    4 or 5 x mile repeat @ 10k pace with 2 mins jog recovery or

    6 to 10 * 800m @ 10k pace w/ 90 secs jog recovery.  

     

    5k speed work outs:

    3 x mile @ 5k pace w/ 2 min jog recovery or

    12 to 16 x 400m @ 5k pace w/ 1 min jog recovery or

    20 to 30 x 200m @ 5k pace with 1 min jog recovery.

     

     

     

     

  • Congrats Calum, always hard in a solo effort and the huge PB is amazing! Shows everything working!



    From the report you will go sub 40- great you controlled it and took away some areas you can shave even more time off!
  • Those sessions look good road warrior, is that something you are going to try?



    I think I may have posted a host of sessions I have been given recently here. But if not I'll do it at some point soon.



    I have a 5km on the 24th May.. Next 10km in June image
  • Knocked off a 37.35 today and previous PB was 39.43 set last August. Main improvements over 10k have come from regular 4mile tempos at roughly race pace

  • Brilliant result LSH...



    I did find a 4 mile tempo to be a huge confidence booster for me too. Haven't done any since Eastleigh ..... Maybe that's why I felt off confidence heading into a few races
  • Cheers scott, buzzing! Focusing on 5k this year but that result will help massively with strength. Now for a sub 17.30...

    Except the 4 milers I haven't done anything specific to 10k. Lond runs 10 miles plus though...

  • I've been keeping up to date with this thread - thanks all for sharing.

    It is now less than 2 weeks until my 10k race and training has been strong. I have settled on a routine that works and I'm feeling that I'm improving each week.

    I'm doing at least 1x13 mile steady run at 8:10/mile per week, with one track interval session with the club and at least 2 or 3 recovery runs in between. Avg weekly mileage near 25 miles.

    What sort of taper do people suggest for a 10k?

    My target pace is 7:00-7:10 per mile, so am planning a race pace 5 miler today, a last interval session on Wednesday, a parkrun on Saturday at target pace then just recovery runs up to Sunday 25th.

  • THESASGEEK- congrats on positive training and confidence.



    General taper would be reduce mileage by 25% 2 weeks before and 50% the week of the race - for a 10km...



    However everyone reacts differently as we have seen and readimage



    My friend who I've been working with (running wise) has suggested reducing volume along those line but keep intensity high (the same) it's worked for me. I prefer a complete rest day 2 days before and a light jog with some hardish efforts day before race such as strides or a few 400 efforts



    I would potentially say the LSR is a tad too quick though



    My LSR are nearer 2:00 slower than race pace (10km) My steady runs are around 1:30 slower than race pace (10km)
  • @Sogswash - thanks. I agree that my LSR could be considered slightly fast. I have started not to look at my watch on LSR and go by perceived effort. Maybe. I'll start looking at it more often.

  • got 5k race coming up soon, not sure what pace to set off at, any suggestions on a training session or test i could do that would give me an idea of what pace to do the race at?

  • How far away cliff ?



    I think there's two ways of looking at it (to gauge) and loads of sessions



    Do you have a 10km time? Half it and minus another minute ..





    Some measuring sessions



    3x1km of say 3:00minutes hard inside race pace to get the feel for raw speed



    Or 4 x 1 mile slightly slower than race pace off 60s for the speed/endurance



    A 2 mile tempo at race pace should be topped with say 3 x 200m fast efforts after would be a good feeler session too



    If the race is 3 weeks or less away there won't be much you can do to improve what is allready there
  • Its in 4 weeks, haven't done a 10k since ive been back in training but last year i ran 40:03 (10k) and a 19:05 (5k), think based on my training and fitness over last 2 months of training I would say I could run around 41min 10k at the moment if that helps.

    Those sessions look good ill give them a try and see what happens. I did do a 1.5miles test run 2 weeks back in a time of 8:49 if that helps.

    thanks image

  • You have 2 weeks or so you can try a few of those and get a good idea of the pace you'll be ok at before you basically won't get fitter before race day anyway- if you make some notes you should be able to see an average coming through in the sessions



    But using the 10km time you have and current gauge of fitness you'll be ok if you start slower than target and keep even pacing rather than trying to hammer and hold on - although race tactics up to you image
  • Ok thanks, yea i usually go for a quick start and try and hold on but my trouble is i go too fast, last year when i did the 19:05 5k i did the first mile in 5:34, think ill try your suggestion and go at 19:30 pace from the start and see what happenes, hopefully ill have some left in the bank for the last mile or on the other hand if im not up to that time ill just have to hang on as much as i can, ill let you know how i get on.

    Thanks for your suggestions image

  • So, last of the faster stuff today before the 10k on Sunday (only fast stuff this week actually, after 10k on Saturday).

    8 minutes @ threshold pace, 4 min recovery, 5x 3 minutes @ 10k pace off 1:30, 4 min recovery, 8 minutes @ threshold pace.

    A little bit tougher (but only a little bit) than I've found other recent sessions actually, but it was feeling pretty warm out there.  Legs ticking over nicely - looking forward to Sunday.

    Paces:

    8 minutes - 1.21 miles (6:37/mile)

    1. 0.47 miles (6:19/mile)

    2. 0.47 miles (6:19/mile)

    3. 0.48 miles (6:18/mile)

    4. 0.48 miles (6:17/mile)

    5. 0.48 miles (6:17/mile)

    8 minutes - 1.21 miles (6:37/mile)

    Another 30 minutes easy planned for tomorrow, rest on Friday, 30 easy with strides on Saturday.

  • CC - sorry you didn't manage sub-40 last time but glad you have perspective on it and it sounds like you're right on the verge.  Good luck (again!) for this weekend.  Solo racing is tough!  The HM I was proudest of was a very small town affair in Japan with a field of about 30.  I was completely on my tod for 90% of the race, on a windy course with several short but vicious hills.  Only 1.31, one of my slower times, but probably worth 3 or 4 minutes less on a flat course with other runners to work off. 

    Good week for me last week, nearly 40 miles, though took it quite easy with the  quality sessions (my first ones since VLM).  My LT run was only 2 blocks of 3k each (with a big hill in between), and speedwork was one session of hill sprints with generous recoveries.

    This week has been really chocker with work and social stuff and will not manage as much as last week, but did a good session of hill sprints tonight (6 x 2m30s efforts at max effort) and will definitely do some mile intervals at race pace on Saturday.  

  • LSH88  - forgot to say - well done dude!! Great PB!  Hopefully I'll be joining you down in the 37s in the not too distant future... Next year, maybe...??  You'll be shooting off over the horizon by then though image

    GK - thanks for the good luck.  Hopefully I'll get another PB on Sunday.  I'm not getting myself too hung up on the arbitrary sub 40 figure anymore, so I wasn't disappointed at all with the 40:18 last weekend.  It's a PB of just shy of 2 minutes, which is massive.  I definitely think I'm currently capable of going sub 40 and hope that I do it on Sunday, but not because it's sub 40, more because it will be another good PB.

    Preparation has gone well - good quick recovery after the 10k race on Saturday, legs feeling good.  Raring to go.  image

    I'm only doing an HM the following weekend and then a 10,000m track race 5 days after that, and then another 10k road race a further 9 days after that.  It's tiring just thinking about it!!

  • Talk about staying match fit!  Have you got a particular goal for the HM?

  • 4 x 1600m this morning at track, with 2min walk recoveries.  Goal pace: 6.20 per rep.  Reality: 6.12, 6.12, 6.18, 6.20.  Spot the slippage!  My excuse is that it was a bit on the warm side.  But the truth is that my pacing is terrible, even on a track I can't stop myself going 5s/km too fast at the start.  Which will obviously come back to bite me in a 10k.  

  • Good that you learnt from it though Genghis! Looks like a good session anyway!

    And it'll take a few runs to get used to the heat image



    I ran first time in 4 days today pain free and did a short speed session..



    Had an option to train with another club who were doing this session and thought I would share



    All off 200 m jog recovery (around 2 minutes )



    4x200m

    6x300m

    4x150m



    2 sets and 5 minutes between sets



    I ended up doing 350/300/250/200m fast though off 400m jog (around 4 minutes)



    Good luck to anyone racing!!
  • Just thought I'd update my post from a few pages back. I was on a 45ish pb off non specific training, after focusing my training after gleaning some tips off here and paces from McMillan I ran a 43.20 after 4 weeks training and another 5k parkrun at 20.15.



    All going in the right direction, hoping to keep going the same way over the next few months with the end goal always in mind at sub 40, maybe next year or so.
  • 4weeks to reduce that amount is fantastic!



    You may find that sub 40 quicker than you think especially with the 20:15 5km you have the pace allready
  • Thanks. I am pretty sure it's my stamina that's the issue, I knew that from the start as I've always been able to bang out faster 5k's. Due to this I struggle with my intervals for 10k, I currently run them at 5k pace, 1km x 6 with 90sec rest, does this sound right? I tend to mix them up every few weeks. Also my long run is around 16k nice and slow 5.30 to 5.45 pkm again does this sound right?
  • A session for 10km can vary ok length - 3km - 12km volume and the pacing will change



    My biggest session was 3x2 mile ran at goal race pace or as close to as possible basically



    I'd say the shorter the session or loner the recoveries the faster you should go so adjust the paces in line with volume - if that makes sense?



    As for LSR- I'd say 90s-2:00 slower than race pace at least - I've said before elsewhere and been told personally you can run steady mileage or some in the week slightly quicker if you do less per week. As you increase mileage keep slow stuff slow (er)
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