Speed Endurance for 10k?

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  • All righty then so your doing what me an Ste "dancers hip" Hayes did on Tuesday. But where you had 60secs rest we had a 75 because i'd not been on the track since mid sept (illness then a marathon)



    Over the next few weeks I hope to reduce the recoveries down. When I say reduce I mean shave not hack at them. Last time I think maybe we went wrong when we tried to improve in some way everysingle week rather than be patient a bit. We even slogged out 16x400m one week with 75sec recoveries an left ourselves tired for days. So this time I'm sort of going to put a cap on session volume to keep in sensible *he says*



    To be honest i've found intervals the most frustrating part of training because myself an Ste are both willing to work hard/hurt/pi time in and hours in so its not like were bein least or anything its the not really knowing that gets me.
  • Stupid predictive text. Ment to say its not like were being "lazy" or anything.
  • Ouch! 16 x 400m with 75 sec recoveries will certainly have left you shattered for a good few days. I've heard that the old rule of thumb is that for every race pace mile in training it takes a day to recover. As that session will have bashed out 4 miles at a fair bit faster than race pace with pretty low recoveries, it would have probably taken five days before you fancied another quality session!

    I'll have to venture up from 12 to 16 reps at some point. Can't say I'm relishing it! 12 x 75 second 1/4 miles isn't much fun.....I'd imagine those extra 4 reps are murder!!

  • sorry havent posted for a few days,

    Jamie I wouldn't worry about doin the 16x400m I not sure if its beneficial if it leaves you unable to train properly for about 3-4days. I'm at the track again t'day and if anything I'll be reducing the recovery down slightly but I'm not going to let the sessions go silly again. Last week I had to say to see Ste hayes before we started the first rep "this is Definetly 12x400, NO MORE" and when it was really just me trying to be a bit disciplined with meself. This speedwork is a totally different mindset to what I used to do.



    Even when we finished the last rep I still had to make THEE LAST REP. its harder than I thought to not just slog it out. Anyway, I may try an take a second of my 400m time each week so hopefully by January that 4:59 mile will be fairly straight forward I hope.
  • Well Done on your time Jamie, Top Time!

    My training has gone off track a bit in the last 3 weeks, havent done any long runs, which it is defanite effecting my fitness, need to start doing the long runs again. Got a race mid december (10k) so hopefully i have got enough time to get back on trak for the sub 40min, fingers crossed. Just need to start doing some hard training again lol

  • Thanks Cliff, great to hear from you.

    Yep, those long slow runs are so useful. Excellent aerobic training, brilliant for getting your endurance up and your resting heartrate down. I'm sure everyone on the thread is behind your sub 40 min campaign.......don't lose focus image

  • Cliff- hope the training goes well for you. Looking forwards to see your result. Doesn' sound to far off though, that sub 40
  • Thanks Guys, fingers crossed, will try get a 10 miller done this weekend.

  • I've read this thread through twice, inspiring stuff! I started really running last year to work about 5 miles away.and this developed into entering a half marathon this September for the first time. Beat my goal of 90 mins with a 1:27. I got my best 10K time during it, of 40:59. Running on 18th Nov in the heanor 10k pud run aiming for a sub 40 time. I am gonna do a longer run tomorrow, probably 12k or 13I then two runs into work during the week. I benefit from having a hilly route in to work
  • This thread has made me think much more about the way I approach my running, so thank you! Hills, tempo runs and faster short reps with rest times will really help.net add variety in my running to beat my targets.
  • Hi Timinho,

    If you can do a 1:27 half I'd bet my left arm that you already have a sub 40min 10k in you.

    All you'd need is a week or so of race pace sharpening. When I first cracked 40min in a 10K I did a 4 mile race pace time trial at 6:24 mile pace a week before. It worked a treat as I came in at 39:38 on the day.....that was last February. In contrast, a few weeks ago I came in at 36:53. I think there is some proof that the sessions I do really work (in the context of a sensible training program) .

    I really rate this thread too, the information I have given is based on genuine sessions that I have done in preparation. I haven't left anything out, unlike many local runners who are very secretive about their training!!!

  • Some good times there fair play timinho. Good luck with the sub 40 10k.

    I have totally lost motivation for the past few weeks only done around 3 runs in 3 weeks, went out the other day and struggled with a 4 mile run. So no races planned for a while now just going to concentrate on building the millage up slowly over winter then will start doing interval and tempo work march-april time ready for some races next summer. The sub 40 will have to wait a little longer but not too long hopefully lol

    Will keep you all updated, going to try a slow 6 mile run this afternoon see how i get on.

  • Hi guys, thanks for the encouraging responses. Did a long hilly run on sat of just over 9 miles, but then been surrounded at home by my wife and two little ones all with a virus. 3 sleep deprived nights followed leaving me exhausted so I didn't get round to the race pace trial till tonight...after work carryin a rucksack of work! mile splits were 6:25, 6:18, 6:38, 6:48. Bit disappointed at slower last two, various reasons for it including traffic. Might go for a very leisurely jog on sat, but that's probably it now. Race is Sunday am. Bring it on! I'll let you know how I do, but really hoping I don't succumb to this virus...at least until after race day!



    How did the six miler go cliff781?
  • Grief Timinho, doing a race pace time trial around traffic and with a rucksack on your back commands respect. You'd have probably hit your target on a track without a rucksack!!!!

  • Timinho the six miler went ok last week and this week done two 4 mile runs over hilly route and managed to get aother 6 miles done today, so starting to get back into it again now, will keep you posted.

    p.s. Good luck in the race image

  • Hi all, we'll thanks to the time trial suggestion, I came in unofficially at 39:12!! Really chuffed and I can recommend the event. once you're out of the industrial estate after 2k it is a really scenic route with great views from the. top of the hill. Last 200 metres we're painful, felt dizzy and like I was going to be sick but avoided that thankfully. I'm amazed at how you step it up in a race situation...anyone got any recommendations for books about the psychology of running?
  • Hi again, my mile split times were 6:34 6:39, 6:22, 5:58, 5:59, 6:10, last quarter of a mile in 1:42.
  • Heavens! I've never seen a set of splits quite like it!!! Did the race start with three miles up hill?

    A superb last three miles.......and I feel your pain in the last quarter, judging by your 1/4 mile split it really hurt!

    I'd bet that on a flat course you'd be closer to 38 mins.....

  • Hi, some good reading, especially the suggestion of running 4 miles at race pace. I'm 37 and hoping to run a sub 40 before I'm 40, managed a 5km in19m57 last week and a 10 mile training run today in 72m18(first 10km in 41m38secs).10km race on 2nd December, ulverston 10km. Any tips for improving quick and judging truly where I am for a race.splits for first 10km today were 6:58 6:37 6:35 6:52 6:37 6:43
  • Hi Tony,

    Yea, the 4 mile race pace time trial one week before the race has helped me find out really where I am several times in the past. I'll continue to do it in my 10K preparations.

    I think your 5K race time gives a better indication of where you are in respect of your 10K than the splits that you have provided. Your splits provided come to a slower time than the 10K enroute to your 10 mile training run!

    I'd bet that right now if you were to double last week's 5K time and add a minute you'd be close to how you'd do over 10K.....circa 41 mins.

    As for getting down to sub 40 minutes in your 10K. Forget trying to do that before you are 40!! You're nearly there now. A solid 2 months structured training would see you crack it, I'm sure.

    I notice that you seem to run your weekly longer run flat out. Conventional thinking seems to support the view that your weekly long run should be at a slow, conversational pace that keeps your heart rate in an aerobic zone (Wilkopedia has a good article on anaerobic/aerobic heartrates/training zones. Runners need to work on their aerobic system as well as train anaerobically.......it seems that your training is largely anaerobic (all running done at 80%+ of max heart rate)?

    The best way to quick gains are two quality sessions a week (pick between speed reps/intervals/shorter distance time trials/hill reps/tempo runs) have at least one rest day weekly, run a long slow run weekly and for the rest of the week build up your mileage with a few slower runs at easy pace.

    If you want some inspiration, I know a lady who took up running in her early 40s (and is now 48!) who ran a 37:19 10K this year. You haven't even scratched the surface of where you can get to.....

    Let us know how you get on.

     

  • timinho wrote (see)
    Hi all, we'll thanks to the time trial suggestion, I came in unofficially at 39:12!! Really chuffed and I can recommend the event. once you're out of the industrial estate after 2k it is a really scenic route with great views from the. top of the hill. Last 200 metres we're painful, felt dizzy and like I was going to be sick but avoided that thankfully. I'm amazed at how you step it up in a race situation...anyone got any recommendations for books about the psychology of running?

    Nice one Timinho, that's a corking run.  Puts my "oooh my legs are a bit tired" finishes into perspective.  I shall endeavour to give more effort in my next race - you are an inspiration!

  • Jamie, thanks for the encouragement and advice . Like a lot on here, I try and juggle work and family along with a few runs meaning I've not really done a long run until Sunday . Your prob right about pace as I tend to run quite hard all the time thinking it will make up for lack of miles though I'll probably end up injured so I will ease off on long run and take the advice.

    I'm hoping to break 40 mins but may struggle as awaiting a double hernia op and removal of gallbladder ( i dont do things by halves) which is due in December, so the ulverston 10km Xmas pud run is my only real chance until I recover and get fit again, be nice to know how long it takes after op to get back jogging .

    I reckon I could run a 10km in about 41mins as you say, but although its only 61 seconds away from a sub 40, it may be too much to make up, I will try and run about 4 min 5 sec km for first 5km and see how I feel for a late surge . Thanks again for the advice.
  • Hi all,



    my split times can be explained as follows:



    Mile 1 & 2 were slower because I didn't want to burn out too early, mile 3 was mostly uphill, mile 4 was mostly flat and I needed to make up some time, 5 & 6 were downhill and flat so I tried to continue my mile 4 pace. Crikey Tony! Hope the op/ops go well and you recover speedily. Good luck with your race, like to hear how you get on.



    My pb before I went under 40 was 40:57 so it is possible you have it in you already. Stay positive and keep attacking the next runner in front of you, in a measured way of course! Depending on the course you could bag a sub 40 before your op!



    Lou, when's your next race?



    I'm interested in the mileage debate. I tend only to run to work twice a week which adds up to ten miles, I cycle the same distance a week and then do a 8-12 mile run when I can fit it in at a weekend. I did slightly longer runs in last month before my hm but I can't fit much more in with work and other commitments. This all does mean that when I do run, it's usually a quality one.
  • Thanks timinho , I will certainly give it my best shot! I know what you mean by quality runs when you can't get the miles in , that is similar to me but going to try a couple if easy jogs combined with two hard runs and see if I hit lucky!



    One positive of waiting for an op is not had any alcohol or treats in last 8 weeks, 7 llbs lighter can only be good news for running image



    What is the best pace to set off for a 10km race, last one I did was the one I'm doing in couple weeks but it was 4 years ago, I remember going to quick and struggling the last mile so don't want to do the same mistake but alas I don't want to be too conservative. I could do with finding someone who I know will run 40m 30 and track and then have a go in last 1.5km with a kick
  • Top run Timinho image Well Done.

  • Next race is an 8 mile xc on Sunday.  Can't find a convenient local 10k in the near future, but I gues that give me more time to train.

    Just about to go out for a muddy lunchtime 6 miler.  I going to try Jamie's prerace time trial - I reckon for an 8 mile xc I should be looking at about 6:55 so I'll try a few miles at that pace.  Not sure if I'll keep it up across the freshly ploughed bits.

    Tony - best to try to pace it evenly.  Difficult as everyone always sets off to quick.  A few times when I've tried to stick to my target pace and it feels like i'm going backwards as everyone pushes past at 5m/m.  I find chasing people down in the latter stages motivating.

  • I was always guilty of going out fast and then trying to hold on and hating every minute of a 10k. It always felt more like 10 hard bloody miles as i burnt out at 5km.

    Did my first 10k (Brighton) at the weekend for several years and tried completely new tactics. I've been working hard at finishing strong and running negative splits and employed that on Sunday. First km was faster than target but always is, then settled into a slightly slower than target pace for the next 4 kms, and then attacked the last 5km with the final 2km being the fastest of the run.

    Like Lou, I find chasing people down a real motivator in the latter stages and a real buzz

  • Thanks Lou and johnas. Johnas what splits did you run? From memory,I'm normally the one being chased down. I think I will change tactics.

    Lou, good luck with your cross country, I've not done one for 22 years maybe a target to do one next year when fit again image
  • Splits to follow Tony but firstly, apologies for just butting into this thread. Having read back through it now, there's some great training and advice being shared. My (km) splits on Sunday were 3.26, 3.35, 3.35, 3.37, 3.37, 3.34, 3.33, 3.33, 3.31, 3.27 (Chip 35.28).

    For speed work, I usually do 1x track session a week (Tuesday), a tempo run of sorts (Thursday) and hill session (Sat). In recent wweeks ive returned to training after Berlin marathon and focussed on last Sunday's 10k as my target race.

    The key sessions geared towards the 10k in recent weeks have been:

    1. 10mins @ threshold + 6x 3mins faster than 5k pace (90 second recoveries)
    2. 45mins steady to include 5x 5mins @ threshold (60sec recoveries)
    3. 6mins @ threshold + 3sets of 4x 400m @ 5k pace (100m jog recoveries and 2 mins between sets)
    4. 5k Parkrun
    5. 10 mins @ 10k pace + 5x 2mins @ 5k pace + 10 mins @ 10k pace (2 min jog recoveries)

    Where Jamie uses a 4 mile race pace time trial, I always use a Parkrun - distance is accurate and it adds the 'competition' element into the mix of other runners, adrenaline etc.

    One of the key sessions in lead up to Sunday was session 5 above: I ran the first 10mins at the 10k pace i planned to start the race, I then ran the 2mins intervals at slightly faster than 5k pace to practise leg turn over and get the legs tired (simulating the key middle section of the 10k race) and then ran the final 10 mins at the pace i planned on finishing the 10k at (faster than the first 10mins interval). This simulated race conditions and gave me the confidence boost i needed going into the race.

     

  • another slow 5 mile run done today, getting back there slowly lol

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