Speed Endurance for 10k?

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  • Cracking splits johnas, thanks for sharing your training plan too. I can only dream of 35 mins , my first aim is to try and equal or improve my time of my last 10km 4 years ago (41m30secs) , planned attempt ulverston 10km run on December 2nd.
  • to put it in perspective Tony, my PB before Sunday was 39.18. Never say never. I see a couple of V40's ran sub 30min 10k at Abbey Dash at the weekend.

    You still have a couple of weeks until Ulverston. If you introduce some speedier sessions twice week until then, it wouldn't hurt. Shorter reps @ 5k or faster pace along with some threshold running would definitely help.

  • Hi Johnas,

    Terrific improvement there! Its terrrific to have V40s running sub 30min over 10K too!!

    There seems to be quite a confusion over threshold running, lots of different definitions. How do you do your threshold sessions? Do you base it on a certain pace/mile, heartrate, perceivable effort?

  • Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)

    There seems to be quite a confusion over threshold running, lots of different definitions. How do you do your threshold sessions? Do you base it on a certain pace/mile, heartrate, perceivable effort?

     

    I just googled threshold pace and general recommendation in terms of pace seems to be "pace you can sustain for 1 hr".  Based on Maxmillian this seems to be around my 10 mile pace, which is more or less what I've been doing.

    btw the muddy 4 mile xc attempt at threshold pace I mentioned a couple of days ago was a failure - I was about 20s/mile slow and that was very tough.  blame it on mud/hills/wind.  The dog enjoyed it though.

  • So in that case I would term a threshold run a tempo run then? One that is run perhaps 10 seconds per mile slower than 10K pace.

    I'm aiming to crack 10 miles for the hour this spring, but a realistic pace right now for the distance would probably be around 6:05-6:10 per mile for me.

    I'd guess that 5-6 miles would be an ideal threshold distance......? Pretty much what I do in my tempo runs every other week. Last week my tempo run was 5 miles in 30 mins 9 seconds.

  • Sounds about right - there's no way I could manage a 1hr 10miles, but eight-and-three-quarter-mile pace doesn't have the same ring to it.

  • Cheers Jamie. As Lou says, typically threshold running is similar to tempo running and does equate to more or less to your 10 mile pace. if you use HR, then it's around 80% - 85% (average) or if by perceived effort level, then 3-4 word answers. It should be 'controlled discomfort'.

    Personally, I do threshold running a couple of times a week, either before and/or after an interval session or as part of a longer steady run. A staple of my training is the 5x 6 mins @ threshold with 90 sec recovery as that basically equates to 5 miles but is less stressful on the muscles (due to the recoveries) than just running for 5 miles straight.

    EDIT: I'm a pace zone person. I find HR just another thing to worry about when out running! With pace, I know where I am.

     

  • Johnas- cracking post that is. I've started to train by HR recently so next year I'm hoping to get from 34:28 down to ..... Well any anything under 34 really. Late next year 33:xx would be very nice.
  • Nice times Andy. What specific training do you do that will help you achieve that goal? What are your key sessions?

  • Yes.....superb times Andy. I'd like to be where you are in a couple of years. Can't see myself being there before the end of 2014 though!

    Cheeky question Andy, feel free to ignore it; but can I ask how tall you are and how much you weigh?

    I weigh a touch under 11 stone and am 5:9. I wonder whether losing half a stone sensibly might benefit race times to a greater degree than keeping to a similar weight but increasing mileage/quality over time. Its fair to say that the guys who consistently beat me in races certainly look like they weigh less.

    I sometimes wonder that as runners we worry so much about our weekly miles, quality sessions, intensity. But that we'll show little regard for our weight or diet......two of the components that really might improve our race times!

  • Johnas wrote (see)

    Nice times Andy. What specific training do you do that will help you achieve that goal? What are your key sessions?

    Johnas i do a track session on Monday nights with the local AC. This is different intervals every week, seems to be generally at about 10sec a mile faster than 10k pace.

    as of last week i`ve started doing a tempo run on Wednesday. the intensity of this is 80% of max heart rate (160BPM)

    Thursday is my Club session on track (cancelled this week as it happens-Footballers image)

    the rest of the week is made up of fairly high mileage at 70% of max heart rate(140BPM). this mounts up to about 100+mpw.

  • Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)

    Yes.....superb times Andy. I'd like to be where you are in a couple of years. Can't see myself being there before the end of 2014 though!

     

    Jamie Newton for simplicity i'll break the answer down here.

    its difficult to say where you will be in the future, depends on all the other non running factors such as:

    Work commitments

    Family commitments

    social life

    and what your rest time is like between runs.

    i know that its more complex than that but you dont want to put to much presure on yourself to get to a certain target by a specific date, take it one race at a time in my opinion.

    Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)

    Cheeky question Andy, feel free to ignore it; but can I ask how tall you are and how much you weigh?


    not cheeky really. i often wonder what the big secret is sometimes with anythin like this.

    last weighed start of November at 11st 4lbs.

    height is 6ft 0.5inch to be precise.

    Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)

    I weigh a touch under 11 stone and am 5:9. I wonder whether losing half a stone sensibly might benefit race times to a greater degree than keeping to a similar weight but increasing mileage/quality over time. Its fair to say that the guys who consistently beat me in races certainly look like they weigh less.

    I sometimes wonder that as runners we worry so much about our weekly miles, quality sessions, intensity. But that we'll show little regard for our weight or diet......two of the components that really might improve our race times!

     


     

  • Jamie Newton In my experience of 10ks I found that when my weight has crept up to 12st the ammount and quality of training makes no difference what so ever towards getting pb's (just cannot go under 35:00mins on any course. But when I get lean (10st 10lbs) I seem to race really well at basically every distance of normal training. Most races seem to give a pb at this weight.

    Be carefull with weight though because there is a catch. I dont seem to be able to sustain (race) weight all the time because its like as if my immune system can't cope with it somehow. esp in winter. Not to bad in summer.



    Maybe the body fat is just needed on the winter, I'm open to learning on the whole weight issue though.



    Generally I tend to get to racing weight for a couple out races each year. Seem to have to live like a monk to get that lean. Pretty frustrating to be honest that its so difficult. Even just to maintain it once there.



    Planning on being disciplined with self from from boxing day to a couple of days before the four villages half on 20th of Jan. REALLY REALLY REALLY want a pb there to make it four years in a row of pb's

    Sorry for going on so long.
  • Thanks for sharing Andy. Makes for interesting reading. How do you find Thursday track sessions after a hard tempo on a Wednesday? It does look very similar to my schedule with the exception of the 100+mpw (I average 55 - 60mpw)! Also, any reason you've started with HR training?

    Re: weight. It's always an interesting topic and I was taught recently 'never hungry and never over full' which will see you eventually find your correct racing weight. I was advised dieting doesn’t work but constantly fuelling the training and recovery will see the body gradually adjust to its right performing weight. It’s a leap of faith though to snack well all day and then see your weight drop but this is what I've experienced, especially during marathon training.

    Power to weight ratio is key – the lighter your are whilst still being full of energy the faster you will go. Get it wrong and get constantly Ill or injured by being far too light... Being healthy will see your body find its correct weight.

  • not to butt in, but Johnas, cracking 10k there son....if you find another 9secs you'll officially be ahead of me...

    however, in my disclaimer defence i had a split of 35.09 at the GSR for 10k, and am still waiting for a 57.09 10miler to show itself in 10k form!

    when's your next race?

  • Alright SG... cheers mate. Was pleased with that as havent ran one since the Striders days! Nice to see you've been hitting some great times - been watching of late and hope you're hip stuff sorts itself out.

    Next definite race is VLM but will target a HM in the new year for a PB effort - prob Reading. Will no doubt enter Wokingham too for an MP run. And XC for me over winter. See you at Parliament Hill in Jan for a XC showdown? image

  • drop in and post over on the thread, now you're rocking times like that you'll soon be hunting people on there down!

    At least I'm safe at Wokingham if you're giving it the MP treatment.

    This Marathon training seems to certainly up the performance, but I guess that's natural with the higher consistent mileage and longer long runs it demands.

    That kind of xc event is precisely the kind of setup I avoid.

    I prefer the kudos of a 44th out of 17,000 of one of these GSR type events....not 400th out of 537th at a race like that!!

  • andy the deestrider. wrote (see)
    Jamie Newton In my experience of 10ks I found that when my weight has crept up to 12st the ammount and quality of training makes no difference what so ever towards getting pb's (just cannot go under 35:00mins on any course. But when I get lean (10st 10lbs) I seem to race really well at basically every distance of normal training. Most races seem to give a pb at this weight.
    Be carefull with weight though because there is a catch. I dont seem to be able to sustain (race) weight all the time because its like as if my immune system can't cope with it somehow. esp in winter. Not to bad in summer.

    Maybe the body fat is just needed on the winter, I'm open to learning on the whole weight issue though.

    Generally I tend to get to racing weight for a couple out races each year. Seem to have to live like a monk to get that lean. Pretty frustrating to be honest that its so difficult. Even just to maintain it once there.

    Planning on being disciplined with self from from boxing day to a couple of days before the four villages half on 20th of Jan. REALLY REALLY REALLY want a pb there to make it four years in a row of pb's
    Sorry for going on so long.


    Great to hear from you Andy.......and thanks for being so honest. I'm very grateful to Cliff for starting this thread. I've been absolutely straight about the training I've been doing and the goals I've achieved and its good to have such helpful posters.

    Maybe its a culture thing locally, but everyone is very coy about what training they do. Its good to be able to get genuine advice from runners who have cracked the goals that I hope to achieve in time......

  • How the training going everybody?

    Ive started training with a heart rate monitor now to make sure i dont train to hard, want to keep most of my runs within the aerobic zone. Going good, done 24 miles this week, and another 6 mile run tomorrow to cap it off at 30 miles, going to increase it slowly every week eventually till im up at 50-60 miles per week. 

    Anybody know what % of heart rate is it best to train at for the following:

    1) Fartlek/ Intervals of 1 mile with 1:30min rest

    2) Tempo run of around 5 miles

    3) shorter intervals of around 200-300meters.

    thanks image

  • Glad to hear you're back in training cliff. Training is going well for me; maintaining a consistent mileage around 25-30 mpw and managed 40:15 10k a couple of weeks ago.

    This is exactly double my 5k pb, which I think demonstrates how tough the Leamington parkrun course is. Going to have another crack at sub20 this morning and set off quick on the first half uphill.

    I'll let you know how I get on.
  • What horrible weather. Ok so I didn't try too hard but barely managed tempo pace.
  • hey all, since my sub 40 10k mid nov, just been running to work really. finally worked out what parkrun is and did my first one this morning...very wet! came in 4th in 18:42, a pb by 4 seconds and I felt like I was caning it! I know I shouldn't compare with the amazing mo farah, but I do and i'm so slow!!! I don't do massive amounts of training but it seems bonkers to me humans can do times these pros do! so much respect for them and the commitment and discipline they have to put in. big respect to parkrun too, wish it had been my idea!
  • Thought i'd pop in again *waves hi*

    Cliff781 to be honest Cliff I probably wouldn't bother trying to do intervals of 200-300m by heart rate. Because you'll practically be half way through a rep before the heart rate gets close to where it will be when you finish a rep. HR is okay if your doing longer reps. The other week I did a session of 4x8 mins I noticed that after about 300m the heart rate steadied at 170bpm(85%max) this hr gave 5:30min/mile pace. Point being though that the first 300m the hr was just building up. So hr is better for loooooooong reps where you can get into a rythym.
  • Jamie Newton 2 wrote (see)

    Yes.....superb times Andy. I'd like to be where you are in a couple of years. Can't see myself being there before the end of 2014 though!

    Cheeky question Andy, feel free to ignore it; but can I ask how tall you are and how much you weigh? I weigh a touch under 11 stone and am 5:9. I wonder whether losing half a stone sensibly might benefit race times to a greater degree than keeping to a similar weight but increasing mileage/quality over time. Its fair to say that the guys who consistently beat me in races certainly look like they weigh less. I sometimes wonder that as runners we worry so much about our weekly miles, quality sessions, intensity. But that we'll show little regard for our weight or diet......two of the components that really might improve our race times!


    I don't know if this might help anyone, but here goes:

    I prepared for a 5 mile race in February and was aiming for sub 29 mins but came in at 29:10......which was only 20 seconds faster than I had done the same event a year before and to be honest, I didn't feel that a 20 second improvement was fair change for all my hard work in the last year.

    Soooo.......over the last three weeks (and remembering my above post from before Christmas) decided to look at my diet with a view to setting a new 10K PB in a race yesterday.

    During these three weeks:

    I replaced my white bread toast or sugary cereal with porridge.

    I replaced my mid morning hot chocolate and twix with tea (no sugar and only one finger of twix!!!)

    I had a tin of soup everyday for dinner instead of Chicken nuggets/fishfingers/Sausage bagguets/beans on toast etc

    After tea (being careful not to eat until bursting 'full' I'd wait at least an hour or two before having any form of desert.

    For supper I'd have fruit and raw veg instead of biscuits and crackers.

     

    Throughout this time I didn't increase anything about my training. No increase in mileage/quality sessions.....nothing. But I did drop down from 11 stone to 10 stone 6.

    In yesterday's 10K I lobbed off 44 seconds from my previous PB of 36:54 set in mid October (last) to get 36:10. And I cracked the 29 min 5 mile mark enroute.

    At 11 stone and 5'9 I didn't think I had much in the way of excess weight to lose. But clearly, watching diet can have a huge effect on race performances if the adjustments are sensible enough.

    I'm hoping that there might be others stuck in that familiar runners plateau who might benefit from this......

  • Morning everyone, I have enjoyed following the thread. Jamie, I have certainly enjoyed your input with the other runners. You have some great times. Now here is something new, I do not have the time or planning you guys have for a number of reasons. I do not have every weekend off and I also do not have the mid week off because I worked the weekend. Bearing in mind recovery is key, I do an hit and miss sessions depending how I feel. I am not new to fitness or training, but running using science is new to me. The best I can use as a time trial is 28 mins 15 secs with hills but on roads. On average I am around 28-29 mins for 4 miles depending on weather and what training I have done.

    As much as I love interval training, I know it increases injuries at my age not coming from a runners background I want to limit injuries. I am doing my first Marathon at Manchester on the 28 April 2013. So I am doing steady miles really around 9ish minute miles. I feel I could do a 10k in 45 minutes as I trained on 46 mins with hills. There are plenty of hills in the North West image not the East Midlands and South East flats here. My aim after I have done this Marathon is to focus on 10k's I want to by the end of the year break 42 Minutes at least but would love to chase down a sub 40 mins. Trouble is I am 51 now. I can either run 4 x 9 Miles each evening after a 18 mile bike ride there and back from Bolton to Salford with a long run at the weekends. When they are free or do a split day of 9 miles. As you can see I want to save time by using my traveling times to train. Now this takes some thinking out side the box. I would love to hear some options.

  • Jamie Newton 2- first time on here for about 3 months. things have improved pb wise since then:

    half marathon pb was 1:16:50 now 1:13:17

    10k pb was 34:28 now 33:17

    basically just persevered with the speed sessions and backed off the 100mpw.

    an like you Jamie i also improved the diet a bit by cutting out bread an cereal. eating less processed food now.

  • andy the deestrider wrote (see)

    Jamie Newton 2- first time on here for about 3 months. things have improved pb wise since then:

    half marathon pb was 1:16:50 now 1:13:17 10k pb was 34:28 now 33:17 basically just persevered with the speed sessions and backed off the 100mpw. an like you Jamie i also improved the diet a bit by cutting out bread an cereal. eating less processed food now.

    Good Lord Andy, you legend!!! Amazing improvements......

  • Jamie - local runners say its amaing improvement but I think I just put it down to getting out the comfort zone and perserveering with speed work.



    Previously I would just go out an do a hilly 10 - 15miles thinking thats what was getting the pb's but that was really just getting the half marathon pace closer to the pace of my 10k pace. Wheras now that I'm doing speed work week in week out the short distances are improving again so hopefully 5+yrs from now when I do step up to the marathon I'll have a set of pb's which are really good as a base to go off because long yerm I would like to be able to achieve a quality marathon time. hopefully by then the years of speed work will of sufficiently conditioned me up to handle 5min pace for long distances.
  • Great plan Andy, please keep us posted on your progress.

    What sort of speedwork have you been working on. 200m - 400m reps? Or 800m-1200m intervals?

  • jamie the speed sessions have been with the local athletics club on a monday night. Generally there done in time rather than distance. So it might be 3 x 10 mins one week, 4 x 8 mins another week. Sometimes they do short intervals. This monday they did a session of 5 x 2mins (90 sec recoveries) then 5 x 1min (60 sec recoveries) then myself an another guy added a 5:12mile on the end to make the session a reasonable one.



    The 2min reps were getting me about 650-670m

    The 1min reps were getting me about 330-350m.



    Today I did 25 x 400m in 73-74seconds. (75sec recoveries)
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