Speed Endurance for 10k?

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Comments

  • Calum- theres nothing worse than having a marathon on the horizon then basically dreading it. I entered the Snowdonia marathon back in 2009 first marathon where I would be 18 on the day and within a reasonable distance. Wasn't nowhere near fit enough and struggled with all the long runs and everything about felt pressured (pledged to raise ??160 charity) this took enjoyment right out of training. Never again doing a race for charity. Youve done the right thing going to the wedding instead.



    Cliff781- good effort with the 5k time on a tougher course. Getting near your pb means you need to get to a fast 5k becuase there is clearly a pb to be had.



    Long runs

    I reckon you need to be as consistent as possible with these. (1 per week)

    ???Add extra miles at an easy pace

    ???Get company for some of or all of the distance

    ???Make sure your rested enough day before the run

    ???Eat as good as you can. Not neccesarrily high ammounts of carbs but the right amount at the right time.

    ???Dont run them at a specific pace until you have the ability to do an easy paced long run first
  • ?marks are suppost to be bullet points stupid ("smart") phone



    Hope some of that helps about long runs Cliff. I started them because of having a marathon in October. But still feel they benefit all distances down to as low as 5k. So the weekly 20 is here to stay now. planning on keeping it at 20m for a while and just going quicker on the 20miler so bringing the time down for same effort level. So what started out as a 2:18 run will hopefully just get a minute or two quicker each week. So therefore getting nearer to marathon pace.
  • another pretty sharp long run there Andy. is that time sharp due to some MP or threshold in the middle bolstering the pace or is it ran at consistent pace?

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the advice Andy, will try a few of your suggestions and hopefully i will be able to extend my long run over the next few weeks/months.

    Got a quick course 5k coming up in mid July so hopefully my aim is to go sub 19min, ive done that once on a track but i dont count that, want to get under it on the road.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Cliff, just to echo what Andy's said - it really shouldn't be that difficult to add to the long miler.  Just make sure you're going slow enough to handle the extra mile.  My training from the start of the year went something like (this is just the weekend run):

    6 miles, 7, 8, 9, 10, 8, 10, 8, 11, 8, 12, 8, 13, 10, 14, 10, 15, then tapered down again until the HM.  I'd be confident I could go out and run 15 miles at 8 minute miles now and it wouldn't phase me.  I think I might build back up over the next few weeks to a 15 miler every weekend like Andy's doing with his 20 miler and just get gradually quicker over that distance.

    I'm at a bit of a weird place now - not sure what to do with training.  I'm still going to run in a 17.5 mile local race that I entered last year.  It took me about 2:40 last year off of almost no training.  I'm hopeful I can go sub 2 hours (which would have got me second place last year!) this year (it's in August), but I'll be happy with anything close to 2 hours this year.

    There are a couple of local 10k races over the next couple of months that I'll probably enter and then a local half marathon in Fraserburgh.  My next "A" race isn't really until March next year - I'm targetting sub 40 at the Garioch 10k next March.

    So, that ramble was basically to say I'm not sure how to structure my upcoming training without the focus of the marathon in September.  My legs need a rest for a couple of weeks but I might try and throw in a couple of Parkruns over the summer - I don't have a 5k PB, I'd like to go sub 20 first time out. image

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  • Johnas- just ran by effort all the way although I do try to run at a brisk pace that i feel if I get out the comfort zone I'll be able to keep going to the end of the run. Also long runs are hilly as well so pace is varying.
  • I know this is a 10k thread but I feel the training I'm doing for this marathon could benefit 10k training/racing as its not all that different really. I want the long runs to be quick if I can because 10k pace (currently 5:23) and long runs now at 6:47 stay within 90 seconds of each other and still benefit. Said it before that I dont see point in plodding round a long run at 8min pace ie recovery intensity.



    I like to take an easy day before a long run aswell so that I can feel strong and therefore enjoy it. Enjoying it makes it easier to keep going in the later stages in my opinion.
  • interesting. i'm like you and run by effort and have noticed my long runs coming in around the same pace as you of late but I'm wondering whether that's actually a good idea.

    I'm wondering whether forcing myself to slow the pace to 7.15 - 7.30 might benefit the speedier sessions i do each week due to less effort and better recovery. Any thoughts on that seems you've got some good times at 10k?

  • Also I like what Calum did to build up the long run. thats proper sensible that is image less likely to get injured I reckon.

    Cliff what you do the rest of the week makes a big difference to. I find on higher mileage the long becomes more achievable because it becomes a smaller portion of the weeks training. So if doing 30mpw a 20m run is a big deal and will be tough but if doing 100mpw a 20m run is fairly easy to do.
  • x-post Andy

    andy the deestrider wrote (see)
    I like to take an easy day before a long run aswell so that I can feel strong and therefore enjoy it. Enjoying it makes it easier to keep going in the later stages in my opinion.

    The day before my long runs are typically a tempo, usually including a hill session. another reason I'm considering slowing my long run pace. I wouldn't bring it down to a recovery pace as that'd be too slow and i do a recovery pace run the day after my long run anyway.

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    any advice on peaking sessions, got a 6 mile race last friday of this month should i just do my normal training plan and have 3-4 days rest before the race or any suggested sessions?

    also how many days rest do you guys normally take before a race, i usually take 3-4, i think it makes me feel more fresh, but would it be better from a performance side to take less days rest, any advice much appriciated?

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    cliff781 - I followed a plan pretty much to the letter for my first 10k this year and felt great on race day.  I did 8 miles 8 days before the race with 4 miles at target 10k pace.  5 days before race day I did 6 x 400m about 30 seconds per mile faster than target pace.  3 days before race day I did an easy, relaxed 3.75 miles.  Then nothing until my warm up on race day.  Like I said, I felt great in that race - strong throughout.

    The last two races I've been pretty much taking it easy for 2 weeks before the race due to niggles and didn't feel as good during the race.  I'm now going to get the legs back feeling good and hopefully approach races like I did with the first one.

     

  • Just seen the last couple of posts here and on training cliff i'd echo what I said a few minutes ago on the lactate threshold thread.



    On rest I am different for every race. If I feel generally tired I'll take an ready week. So really just the qaulity sessions on monday and wednesday with 2-3 easy miles day before race.
  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    ok thanks for the help and advice everybody, will let you know how my 6 mile race goes at the end of the month.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Good luck cliff781 - if you don't mind me asking - what's the target for the 6 mile race?

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Thanks, well i did the 5k last week in 19:39 so im hoping for a sub 39, which is around 40:30 10k pace.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Good stuff - you can't be far away from that sub 40 minute 10k now image

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Hopefully Calum, well fingers crossed anyway. Will have to wait till september till i get to do a full 10k but i think by then i will be well prepared for that sub 40.

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    What pace per mile should i run tempo sessions? my 10k pace is currently around 6:30 per mile. cheers

  • Cliff - using your most recent 5k time, tempo (lt) pace is 6.51 per mile, +- a few seconds

  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Thanks Johnas much appriciated.

  • Cliff- look corward to hearing you've gone sub 40. Its a good barrier to break through.
  • cliff781cliff781 ✭✭✭

    Cheers Andy, fingers crossed wont be long to wait now.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Not sure if this is the best place to ask this question - well it's kind of two questions I suppose.

    At the moment, I run three times a week and cycle twice a week, plus one strength/stretching session.  So I work out 6 times a week, but only 3 are running sessions.

    In the winter, when it was too dark to run in the morning before work, I was running at lunchtime and going to the swimming pool close to work twice a week (in the place of the two cycling sessions).

    I'm thinking about going back to swimming a couple of times a week (it's logistically easier for getting to work a bit earlier and missing traffic etc.) and running at lunchtimes again.

    So - the question I have is in relation to swimming.  The three running sessions I do are based on the Run Less, Run Faster book - so on a very basic level, 1 x speed session, 1 x lactate threshold session and 1 x long run.  All quality workouts.  The cross training is kind of in the place of recovery runs.  I tried a recovery run recently and landed up injuring my leg... so I'm keen to stick to the 3 x per week for now!  So, the question is - what should the effort be like when I'm swimming?  I am currently a very slow swimmer.  I can swim and swim for ages but at a slow pace.  When I was swimming previously, I did introduce some slightly tougher workouts - something like (25m lengths) 1x fast, 1x slow, 2x fast, 1 x slow, 3 x fast, 1 x slow, 4x fast, 1 x slow.  "Fast" for me is still very slow, but it was tough going and meant I was out of breath.  What would be of the most benefit for running?  Just slow and steady for aerobic base building?

    Same question really goes for cycling - I now have the benefit of a heart rate monitor I could use when cycling to keep the effort in the right zone if necessary - I generally find cycling pretty easy - I need to be going up a steep hill before I feel any difference in breathing and even then, if I just select a low gear I can cruise up fairly easily.  I think my cycling would almost always be in an "aerobic" zone heart rate wise (although I haven't measured yet).

  • probably questions for the tri forum i would have thought Calum. But for what it's worth, I do cycle and if i'm replacing a specific running session with cycling, i just mirror the intensity and duration. for example, mondays I usually do 45 min recovery run. Ive now replaced this with 45 mins very easy cycling.

    re: swimming I haven't a clue on the impact those sessions would have on running or recovery but i'd think a pool workout is great for your aerobic as well as a good general all round workout, without the impact on joints of running. Not sure it would have too much detrimental effect on your running ability but i could be wrong

  • Short answer: What johnas said.



    Full answer: I reckon cycling will give you alot of the aerobic benefits if you work at same intensity so intervals of 400m for example would have to be the same time but obviously give you a longer rep distance. As 400m on bike won't really stress you because it'll be over so quick. I love my turbo trainer because if its ever snowing or I'm injured I can always use that. Injurys always seem aggravated buy impact for me. Cycling removes this problem. ultimately though nothing trains you for running like running. Over time the miles strengthen up all the things that are stressed ie bones (metatarsals, ankle, heel, shin, hip ect) tendons, ligaments and muscles. no substitute I don't think.



    Not a swimmer I'm afraid so can't really help there. Sure the tri people can help.
  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Heart rate question now...

    Any of you guys train with a heart rate monitor?  I just hooked mine up for the first time on Tuesday and just looking at the stats now.  I was kind of hoping that my interval session of 5 x 1k intervals would give me a max heart rate reading to work from.  I read somewhere that you should run 3 x 3 minutes "all out" - admittedly my intervals were a good bit longer than 3 minutes but I thought it might work.

    Anyway, I just looked at he stats and my heart rate peaked at 202 bpm, but in my warm up (when I was doing a couple of short burts to warm the muscles up) but it was at a steady 181 bpm throughout each interval.

    I was going to ask if I should take 202 bpm as my max, but just looked at the stats from today and in my "easy" warm up, whilst going up a (not very steep) hill, heart rate peaked at 229 bpm!!  That seems fairly unlikely given that the old fashioned way is to take your age away from 220!??

    Hmm - I'm a bit confused.  Could my heart beat at 229 bpm??  I would think that it should really be capable of more than that if it was doing that whilst I was jogging up a hill at 8 minutes per mile in a warm up!?  

  • Hi Calum.   The first couple of miles it always jumps about.   The contact is not ideal.  

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Calum- yes, they do jump about a bit in early part of run so I tend to take my average hr and pay minimal attention to my max reading.

    I have done hr sessions on the treadmill and the formula of 220 less age, whilst not scientficially bang on, is  a really good gauge of things within  a few percent.

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