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Base Training
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Great to see this thread resurrected, those of you that have read some or all of the thread will know that I have been doing Hadd training on and off for a few years now. Unfortunately I run marathons too often to get a long enough spell on base training to achieve the full effects but I started again in the summer and running to 70%MHR I managed to get my mileage up nicely without suffering any over training or injuries. My peak mileage week in August was 100 miles, then back at work the following week I ran 80mpw and the week after 75mpw (including 2 marathons in 3 days). The following weekend I knocked 10 minutes off my marathon PB without a taper and it wasn't a flat or fast course(Wolverhampton) and all the proof I need that Hadd training works. A few marathons after that then swine flu I'm now building up my training again.
For those of you starting out the basics are read the Hadd stuff, and keep it to hand as it's a lot to take in on one hit.
Do a MHR test or sprint like hell for the finish line in a race. the formula to calculate MHR doesn't work for a lot of folk
Build up your mileage to one hour a day (I usually only run 6 days a week) starting out at 70-75% MHR and work towards getting that down to 70% MHR...it does get easier, the first couple of weeks can be very frustrating but perservere.
Do a Hadd test every 6 weeks or so, how you perform at the lower heart rates is a really good performance monitor
Once you can run 10 miles with no cardiac drift at 70% MHR, ie. pace and HR remain constant introduce 2 work sessions a week at ILTHR pace (see last page of Hadd bumpf) until you can do 10 miles at that HR with no cardiac drift then your works sessions move up to the next HR range.
this really is a great way to train and you will get great results
when you say no cardiac drift do you mean maintain the same pace and have no cardiac drift or just alter your pace accordingly when you see a difference?
I assume you mean the former...
I used to be very sceptical about this type of training but after only 6 weeks of trying it I’m now completely convinced. I ran a disappointing time in Dublin marathon after using a FIRST programme so I decided to give base training a try. I now run 6 times a week with 5 of running about 70% of my Maximum HR which is 140. I also run one tempo run a week at just below 10k pace. I'll be adding an interval session with 16 weeks to go unitl my next marathon.
I hated the first few weeks of base training as I had to run so slow but my times have now come down to a reasonable speed. Here are the pace and average HR I’ve run on my weekend long runs for the last 6 weeks –
Pace 9:41 HR 138
Pace 9:21 HR 138
Pace 8:56 HR 137
Pace 9:04 HR 141
Pace 8:50 HR 142
Pace 8:43 HR 137
My average HR for the Dublin marathon was 157 and my pace was 8:35 and finished in 3h 48 minutes. I was on target for 3h 30 until I hit the wall at around 20 miles.
Badbark - that's great progress on your long runs. What sort of distance are you up to now for the long runs?
You should find that your next marathon will be a lot more comfortable to run than Dublin.....there are no walls to hit with base training.
Shades, all the long runs have been between 10-13 miles with a 14 miler planned this weekend.I'll post my results in another few months to see if I've continued to improve.
I hope to break 3h 30 with my next marathon in May without hitting the wall!
Badbark - I think you'll get that 3.30 time without any walls next time. Incidentally I ran my marathon PB at 88%MHR without hitting the wall. I think I just peaked on the right day. but I'm sure I can improve on my PB and that's what I hope to do in 2010.
BT rocks
Shades - Good to see you posting here. Didn't realise how much mileage you ran well done.
Last few weeks running has been a bit hit and miss but this is usually our busy time at work now things should begin to settle down and i can get back to some sort of proper training looking forward to this
I made fast improvement getting down to 39.47 for 10k and 3.13 for a marathon 3 years ago but for a while have plateaued.
In addition my last 3 london marathons have been a lot slower at 3.25, 3.29 and 3.28 mainly down to niggles in race that troubled me and in my long runs, mainly hamstring being tight and stiff.
I have decided to follow the Hadd coaching thread to get a good base for London 2010 as my previous training may have been causing niggles - and I am now into my 5th week.
My max hr is 178 and my easy runs are about 130 HR (about 8.03 to 8.18 pace depending on terrain and wind etc.
So far my longest run is about 16 miles and the LSR is feeling much easier.
I am doing 5 runs a week at 125 to 135 HR and 2 runs a week at 140 to 145 HR and this helps to keep my legs stretched out.
My hamstring problem is not as bad now (only done 2 xctry races and no speedwork in this period)
Not noticed any significant improvements in pace at the lower HR's but feel this will come in due course.
WHAT IS THE BEST STRATEGY FOR FUELING ON MEDIUM LONG RUNS ?
The runs of say 60mins to 2hrs at low HR's as well as making the slow twitch fibres stronger also make you more efficient at using fat for fuel.
Is it better to take no liquids and no gels with you so that any glycogen requirements have to come from fat stores or should you take liquids and/or gels with you??
Hi Pammie - good to *see* you again too,and pleased to know that you're still a Hadd disciple.
I've found that for me to achieve PB's Hadd training and high mileage is the only way that works for me, am not up to that level of mileage again (yet), it's taken me 5 weeks after the swine flu to get my RHR back to normal. I have 10 days off over Xmas so hope to get the mileage up to 100mpw then as I have plenty of time to run and rest
Shades - Have to agree with you i tend to race better when doing more miles though not as much as 100mpw best last year 50mpw (best 66 miles in one week)
Good luck with the increase again hope you are fully recovered now.
I had thought of 100mpw in the past but thats all i have thought of it - mainly due to the amount of time i would be running.
Can i ask you (if i'm not being too nosey) what were you doing each day to run that mileage?
I certainly want to get back up to the 50-60 mpw maybe push 70 if i can. Maybe 100 is achieveable one day
Pammie - I'll dig out my training diary tonight and let you know the daily mileage for my peak weeks. I've never managed a 100mpw whilst working (I work full time), I'm hoping to achieve it in 2010, we'll see
Cheers Shades - really appreciate that.
I work strange shifts its really like a week on/week off so some weeks i have more time on my hands (or should that be feet) Am hoping for better times in 2010
Hi GG - cross posting last night so have only just read your post. You've done really well to achieve those marathon times so obviously have a great deal of natural ability.
Re fueling on longish runs. This is a very personal thing and everyone is different. For me I don't bother with anything at BT pace if I'm running anything up to 2.25 hours. If I'm out longer that that then I would take a small amount of water and a handful of sweets. For runs over 20 miles I would use some electrolytes in the water and a few more sweets or dates which I find really good (very high on the GI index but can cause runners trots in some peeps). I never use sports drinks or gels as they don't agree with me. You don't want to deplete yourself of fluids or carbs too much as this will delay your recovery from the run so not helpful. I would suggest that you take a gel and/or some sweets and have access to water and take what you feel you need in the run. If you eat a fairly decent breakfast before your longish runs then that will help, as the runs are done at BT pace there shouldn't be any problem with running fairly soon after eating.
Pammie - right the path to my marathon PB
July - had a couple of niggles which kept my mileage down and I DNS'd my 2 planned ultras in that month, weekly mileage in July was 30 to 50mpw
August
1st week only 22 miles including 2 days rest before marathon
2nd week (I was on holiday in the Isle of Man for the whole week)
Day 1 - marathon 26.2 miles
Day 2 - a.m. 10 mile recovery run, p.m. rest (was knackered!)
Day 3 - a.m. 9 miles, p.m. 6.8miles
Day 4 - a.m. 10.05 miles, p.m. 5 miles
Day 5 - a.m. 8.09 miles, p.m.3.02 miles
Day 6 - a.m. 10.02 miles p.m. 6.45 miles
Day 7 a.m. 6.69 miles
Total 101.32 miles
I then took a rest day and reverted to Mon-Sun as my running week
3rd week (back at work)
Day 1 - a.m. 6.58 miles, p.m. 2.89 miles
Day 2 - a.m. 7 miles, p.m.6 miles
Day 3 - a.m. 6.67 miles, p.m. rest
Day 4 - a.m. 7.56 miles, p.m. 6 miles
Day 5 - a.m. 8 miles, p.m. rest
Day 6 - a.m. 8 miles, p.m. rest
Day 7 - 21.5 miles, p.m. rest
Total 80.2 miles
4th week
Day 1 - a.m. 6.11 miles, p.m. 2.28 miles
Day 2 - a.m. 6.5 miles, p.m. rest
Day 3 - a.m. 7.52 miles, p.m. rest
Day 4 - rest day
Day 5 - Invitational marathon Longford 26.2 miles
Day 6 - rest day
Day 7 - Longford marathon 26.2 miles
Total 74.81 miles
contd/....
5th week
Day 1 - 3.19 recovery run, travelling home from Ireland then
Day 2 - 3.57 miles (knackered after journey home)
Day 3 - a.m. 8 miles, p.m. 5.65 miles
Day 4 - a.m. 6.31 miles
Day 5 - felt tired took unplanned rest day
Day 6 - rest day
Day 7 - Wolverhampton marathon 26.2 miles (10 mins and 12 secs off PB)
Total 52.92 miles
Thanks very much for sharing very impressed, totally inspired and big congratulations on your pb
Pammie - that's OK, though it's not really much help is it!!!
The only thing I will say is that running doubles does soon become a habit and I think the benefit training wise comes from running on tired legs. Incidentally half way through the 80 mile week is when my min/mile training times started to drop, I've found that with Hadd training improvements can suddenly start to happen, but I didn't think it would reflect in my marathons that soon. I had not planned to run a PB or even try for one, I just decided on the start line at Wolverhampton to run at 85%MHR for the first 5 miles then up to 88%MHR for as long as I could hold it and it just turned out that I managed to hold it for the whole distance.
That’s incredible Shades as you ran two marathons the week before you ran your PB! That goes against everything that I’ve read about tapering, rest etc. Would you recommend trying this sort of approach for anyone else?
I personally like doubles a lot. Bizarrely, I ran my highest weekly mileage ever about 6 days before my best every 10k.......
I do like doubles myself though not do them all the time but when i do, find them enjoyable and does teach your body to recover quickly.
I will take a SIS gel and water for BT runs of 2hrs or more, plus a few sweets and see how that goes.
Normally would take water and a gel for 90 mins or more.
Very impressed with your 100mpw and especially in the week that you did a marathon.
Will introduce 2/3 doubles a week into my BT very soon and run the extra run slowly
Badbark -no, I wouldn't recommend running 2 marathons the week before attempting a marathon PB unless you are a serial marathon junkie as I am. I have previously run marathons on consecutive days, quite a few doubles, 2 triples and I did the 10 in 10 at Windermere in 2008. Running so many marathons close together generally will slow your marathon times (obviously), however when I did the 10. in 10 there was one guy that ran a marathon PB on Day 7 which was an astounding achievement but he was then injured for 4 months. I ran badly at the 10 in 10 having missed my last 8 weeks training due to injury, I was pleased just to complete it.
The more traditional marathon training including the tapering has never worked for me, I've tried several times and have run like a donkey (with apologies to the donkey). My last 2 marathon PB's 2005 and 2009 have been after a long spell of Hadd training but still been unexpected on the day, I guess you never really know how a race is going to pan out until you're well into the race. I've been running marathons close together for a long time and my strength lies in my recovery, it's another element of fitness that improves with time.
GG - I find that with running doubles it's easier to increase the weekly mileage that way rather than increasing distance on your daily runs. Time and work committments started me on doubles and even when I'm on holiday at Xmas when I plan to run15 miles a day I will probably do that most days with 2 runs.
Might throw a few strides in at the end of a couple of the extra runs to keep the legs stretched out.
I like the idea of Hadd style training and the lower intensity runs, as think it will be helpful to the hamstring niggles that I have had in the past - caused mainly through running too hard too often during my marathon training.
Have done 5 weeks of BT now and up to 65mpw of single runs (inc 17 miles LSR today) - trying to avoid racing apart from a couple of xctry ones in January and February.
During this time will build up my base and attempt to be patient (will be the first time I think) and look forward to racing VLM in much better shape.
GG - You're doing well getting the mileage up especially in this weather. We had ice yesterday so I missed my long run, ice is the only type of weather that I won't run in.
Do you do a lot of stretching to keep those hamstring niggles at bay?
There is a recreation area near where I live and can run longish laps around there and the conditions tend to be crunchy underfoot but safe to run on. It is a bit boring but helps to get a good portion of the run done.
Re the stretching - over the past few years have seen 3 or 4 physios and the problem stems largely from sciatic problems from my lower back.
Have been given stretches to do for hamstring and back and do them daily.
In addition need to improve my core muscles etc so doing some exercises as well.
My favourite distance is marathons (only done 8 since my first one at Abingdon in 2004)and after I increase the training runs to 13 miles or more then the right hamstring starts to niggle after a few weeks and I have to stop and stretch it out a lot.
It slows me downs as it tightens up and I cannot stride out as well.
The reason I am doing the BT is to try and combat this problem and so far I feel a lot happier with my long runs. I stopped for 2 stretches in my 17 miler but generally my hamstring is easier this time around, so fingers crossed.
GG - good for you being so religious about your stretching routines. BT is certainly your safest way to train and avoid injury and allow you to get those miles in.
No running for me last night or this morning as we have a lot of black ice, it looks evil out there, am not looking forward to driving to work either
Took me ages to find this thread - RW's search tool wasn't any help - is anyone following this approach at present?
I really should learn