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Manchester Marathon 2013
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However, the reasons for hitting it were simple. I made mistakes in my training (didn't do my long runs slow enough and didn't do enough of them) and during the early part of the race (irregular pace, weaving through people with sudden bursts to make up time lost through congestion).
So, I think the wall is totally avoidable if you're well prepared and disciplined. No need to fear it if you're doing the right things, in my humble opinion. I'm righting those wrongs in my Manchester training so fingers crossed.
Not sure why it has displayed like that above. The whole post is me and not a quote!
Enjoy!
Oh god, SlokeyJoe, is that what happened to you? How scarey - now I'm really nervous!!
Paxton Lee - Am worried I may have run too fast this morning now. Why would running a training run too fast cause you to hit the wall?
Oh, and another question, what do people carry with them on marathon day? Was planning on a very small running belt, just big enough to carry 5 gels.
Probably more experienced and better qualified people to answer that clearer than me but I'll give it a go. The aim of your long training runs is to build the basic stamina and prepare your body for the time on your feet. If you're running the longs runs too fast then your body isn't getting used to working for the required amount of time. You build speed through tempo runs, intervals, etc, as part of the overall training programme. A lot of people run their long runs slow but add in a section of a few miles towards the middle/end which is at race pace.
Training for VLM, I ran 20 miles hard in training, tiring in the last three miles. Come the race, I tired at exactly the same point as in training as that was how my body was tuned. I'm running the long runs slower now and at the end I feel I can go on longer. If you're running all your training runs fast (like I did last year) then you open yourself up to burn-out too.
Hmm, I see, I think. I just wanted to 'test' myself I guess. Next 20 in 2 weeks I will run slower but maybe too late now. Experience is everything I suppose.
Reading what you say about burn out is making sense, I’ve been hitting my training runs hard HM pb at 1hr36 last Sept, injured (back worn discs/sciatica) so out for 3 months then got myself back to 1hr38 at a Blackpool few weeks ago then did 20 mile training run in 1hr46 and felt absolutely great did Stafford 20 which I found tough for the last 7 or 8 mile finished in 2hr50 then the next week the Trimpell 20 thinking the flatter course would build confidence a bit but I just went off too quick and again struggled home in 2hr50. Did Wilmslow today and just spectacularly crashed 1hr50m my slowest HM ever. Just empty after 7 mile.
I’ve been missing midweek runs because it’s been taking a few days to recover from the long races and work commitments.
With a month to Manchester my first mara how do I get some life back in my legs?
Nothing wrong with testing yourself, boosts your confidence which is great. I'm sure you'll be fine, particularly as you have still have a 20 miler to go and a good month left. My advice is to listen to your body. If you're wiped out after your long runs or struggling near the end then you've gone too fast. If you feel relatively strong at the end and it's been comfortable then it sounds ok. Ideally, long runs should be a comfortable pace, about a minute slower per mile than race pace. I'm no expert though, just what I've picked up from my own limited experience and from reading on here from the guys who are vastly experienced.
Matt - That's been a brutal schedule by the sound of it! Gentle pacing from now on I reckon as it seems the speed is in the bank already.
Help much appreciated.
Thank you
Toni xxxx
Hi Sallymax,
Just wanted to add some extra info from what i've picked up in the last year. What Paxton has said is right and it's vital that you slow those long runs right down. The main reasons are time on your feet (you're running 6-8 miles less than the mara so if you train at the same pace, you won't be used to running on tired legs for the length of time needed), injuries (your legs take a battering at full tilt, you need to go easier on them in training as the long run is only part of the training) and fatigue (if you are maxing out the long runs, you won't ever be fresh for the speed sessions and will have bad sessions).
To give you an idea, my mara race pace will be 7-7.10 m/m and my LSRs are at 8.45-9.00 m/m (albeit on a pretty hilly route). Even here I feel that 8.45 is too quick and have been trying hard to keep nearer 9 m/m.
Last 2 weeks before taper now. Doesn't appear to be getting any warmer so it looks as if the whole meat of the trainng will have been in freezing conditions. I very naively thought i'd be running in mild conditions, maybe in shorts and training top by now. What a classic fool.
Morning....plenty of food for thought here! I agree with the science behind all this, however, for me, I wouldn't feel too comfortable doing my long run 2 minutes slower than race pace. I suppose it might be a confidence thing?
I know there is a plan (is it the Furman Institute?) based on 3 runs a week, and I think then, the LSR is only about 40 secs per mile slower than race pace. I know, that on my Marathon PB I did my long runs at about 40 seconds per mile slower than my race pace and was comfortable with that. Then again, I don't ever do any speed work or anything technical, so for me this is the best way. Plus, I tend to recover quite quickly....but then again, I don't consider myself an expert, it's just whats worked for me
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Am losing the will to live with this weather now....fed up is not the word, plus I am feeling the beginnings of a cold...just as I start a hard week of training!
I wonder how Aunty Ninja and RR got on at Wilmslow? I was thinking about them when I took the dogs out yesterday morning, it was snowy and incredibly windy and I was pleased I was not running far!
Panda
Came home in 1:51 at Wilmslow (Matt G I'd love to have gone under 1:50 again), 8 seconds outside my PB so I was fairly happy given the conditions and I think it was a valuable learning experience in the midst of all the distance training
Went out too fast, struggled a bit in the middle of the course and then the marathon LSR training kicked in toward the end when alot of the others runners were starting to tire.
I naively thought my LSRs would mean that I would find the run a little easier than last time, given the number of 13+ mile runs I've done so far but I didn't enjoy it, not sure whether that was down to conditions or what
Still it was a better time than I was expecting, some of the other runners were saying at the end that it's difficult to run a great HM time when you're in the midst of training for a much longer distance than that, so I'll take comfort from that too
Reading some of the recent posts regarding LSR pace, I think I've naturally run them slowly but I am conscious that this may still not be slowly enough so we'll see during the 18 miles on Wednesday whether I can try and enjoy the run
Must admit post-race yesterday some doubts were starting to creep in again about the marathon and hats off to the guy I drove past on my way home who was clearly extending the day to cover his long run and was running home from the race
Gentle 7 miler tonite to stretch the legs and try and kick the week off and then a rest day tomorrow before the LSR for the week
I'm sure Spring will arrive at some stage, just hope it doesn't suddenly decide to go baking hot on the day of the race
HI RR
That's a brilliant time! I think you can really say it was a PB (ok, not officially), but those conditions and that wind can only have slowed you down. It must have been horrendous. I would have been happy just to get round, but you obviously worked hard for that, so that's great.
How did you get on without your music? Did you manage to test your refuelling with gels and drinks? Did you consider it good marathon prep?
I know what you mean.....I doubt we will get a baking hot day for the marathon, but if we did I wouldn't be best pleased. Mind you, rather that than last years conditions!
Panda
I have to confess that on looking around at the start line there were a number of people wearing music devices so I did likewise and was plugged in from the start albeit quietly.
Took some gels with me and that worked fine so am comfortable with their usage now and visiting the drink stations on the way through rather than carrying my own.
In terms of marathon prep it's been a bit of a double-edged sword in that it was great to do a race proper, get another 13 miles chalked off and get a decent time (for me) but on the other hand it was alot harder than I expected given the marathon training and has knocked my confidence a little in terms of doing double that distance in 5 weeks time, in terms of how I felt toward the end.Recovery-wise I think the marathon training has helped as I felt fine not long after finishing
I need to give some serious consideration to pacing future runs and also to not get drawn in by running alongside a number of people when I'm used to running solo as I think I ran in pace with them rather than something that was more comfortable for me. Need a strategy for the marathon as I was looking at tailing the 4hr runner but if they're doing even splits, I may stuggle in the final half to third of the race
Certainly tend to run the first half of my longer runs faster than the 2nd half, did the first half of the race in just under 53mins and the 2nd half in 58 mins
RR - you WILL do double the distance, yesterday mentally you knew you only needed to do 13 miles and anything extra would have seemed "difficult". Why not try a longish run in progression to see how you get on? Start off slowly and then up the pace by 10 secs every couple of miles? Pace wise I run marathons with a "strategy" I decide what pace to go at and I'll stick to that all the way through. I keep repeating to myself "metronome". I ignore those whizzing off at the start and I tend to go past quite a few struggling after the 20 mile mark.
Sally - I tend to do my LSR about 30-40 secs/km slower than marathon pace.
Don't forget rockinrobin that you'll have 3 weeks taper before marathon day which hopefully will mean you will be refreshed and up for it. That's what I keep telling myself anyway! Well done on your time anyway - great.
Although I am hoping for warmer weather, I too hope it's not a heatwave on marathon day. Was just reading a blog (spend far too much time reading about marathons!) about last year's Paris marathon which was a boiling hot day and they ran out of water - can you imagine! Just something else to worry about!! Anyway, it's freezing down here today but I'm resting...
Thanks again for thoughts on LSR. Everyone is so helpful.x
Cheers Molly and Sally
I'll probably be more positive after I've got another 18 miler out of the way later on this week and am back to proper LSR rather than "racing". I intend to take the slow and steady advice on board and also trying to keep to a pace which I probably do to a lesser extent now but to set it a bit more accurately
Probably stated off at around 8min/mile yesterday and came in around 9min/mile but I did recognise around mile 5 or 6 that I'd gone a bit quickly and tried to compensate (It was disheartening when 2 bananas ran past me!)
I'm trying to steer clear of marathon related articles at present so that I don't deviate too much from the planning I've done for the next few weeks
I am finding the help, advice and support given on here really helpful and it's nice to know other people are going through similar issues or have "been there"
Lots of useful info here folks, especially about the LSR's, really appreciate it thanks.
The thing with slow runs I cant get my head around is having faith in the training programme. I'm going to be trying to sneak along with the 11 min/mile pacer and I've been training at between 11.5 and 12 min/mile after 15 miles I seem to go to pieces. If I slow down any more I doubt that I'll be able to average 11min/mile on race day because it just seems too slow. I think for me one of the issues is that whenI have to run that slowly my whole technique changes and my run becomes more of a shuffle (Sad I know!!!). I wonder if this change in technique is bad for me. On long runs I've generally been having 2 gels an hour, drinking water enroute, eating pasta the night before and having breakfast cereal before I go out in the morning.
I'm determined to break 5hrs this time and have a couple more LSR's to help with my stamina but wonder if LSR's ever get any easier!
This is my third marathon and generally I love the training but fall apart on race day. Any advice greatly appreciated.
On another matter entirely, for those interested, change is afoot in Liverpool for their marathon. The council are inviting tenders from organisations interested in runing the Marathon in May 2014.
Cybarev - you've got to have faith and believe in your training schedule. It really is mind over matter. Pasta is fine the night before, before a marathon I eat carbs on Fri night too. As per gels, I have a gel and a couple of sips of water every 30 mins - yet my brother has sports drinks, no gels and one flapjack at 20 miles - it really is each to their own. Gels work for me they don't work for others. When you start a LSR don't think "ooh I've done 2 miles 18 to go". Try and divide it up into 5 mile sections. Get from 0 to 5 and think "ok i've done a quarter. Now I've got to get to 10 miles. And tick the miles off one by one without thinking what's left. You WILL break 5 hours
CYBAREV - with you on the shuffle, I know exactly what you mean and I feel like that toward the end of my LSR. I do feel I have an almost neutral gear that I can switch down to when I'm feeling tired which keeps me moving and alleviates some of the tiredness but feels like I'm not getting anywhere fast
The High 5 gels I'm using suggest one every half hour after the first hour and taking 2 just before the start of the race, along with some form of energy drink. Seems to work but I'm not sure it's any better than the energy drink and jelly babies I was using earlier in training, perhaps a little easier to ingest.
It does make things easier to break it up into sections
My mistake was to make up an LSR route comprising a number of smaller routes that I used to run. Familiarity and knowledge of a route breeds contempt and you know exactly how far you have to go or what effort will be required. I think variety is the key sometimes, even if it means getting someone to drop you off 18 miles away from your house and then running home
I received an e-mail yesterday to say they are not holding a Tatton HM this year which would have been my next target race but that there will be other Cheshire HM around the same time
HI everyone...
I am enjoying reading these posts more and more, and I can honestly say I have been there. I must say, this will be my 8th maratho and certainly my slowest, but the 20 milers never get easier for me (sorry, I don't know if that helps or not!)....I suppose they are a bit easier now psychologically, because I know what to expect and I know it's going to hurt. Sometimes when I am struggling, I think "Why am I doing this, it's horrible?"....but then when I see the Garmin click round to "20 miles" I think "Get in!...not many people can do that"! ....and it's true.
Things that help me on my long run.......(not that I am an expert but I think if you even learn one thing it helps)
1) I find that I perform best with two days clear rest (bar walking) before my LSR...legs and mind are a lot fresher. Hence, I do my runs these days on Tuesday (8-10 miles), Wed (5-6 miles), Saturday (LSR), Sunday (4-5 mile recovery run). No other cross training unless you count walking.
2) Have a good feed the night before your LSR...Pasta or Risotto, and not too early in the evening either.
3) Plenty of fluids the day BEFORE the LSR.
4) White bread or similar on the morning of the LSR....
5) I personally take some sweets, a bottle of drink (and I swing my a shop or something to replenish about half way round), and two gels for 20 miles.
6) If you have a Garmin check you pace, don't go out too fast, you can always pick it up later.
7) Have some decent music on! I personally have the radio on (Real Radio!), I find it's a bit like having company, without having to make the effort to talk back!
8) Split your run into manageable chunks.
9) Don't be afraid to stop for a brief loo stop, stretch of the legs, or water refueling. I am not say stop every mile, but I normally do all of these on a run of 20 miles and I have never felt the need to do this on the marathon day, so don't worry about it.
10) Tell yourself that it IS a long way, and it will probably not be easy, but if you don't do it marathon day will be even harder!
We are all doing so well really, especially in this shitty weather.
I did 10 this morning and was freezing, despite being wrapped up. My eyes were watering, it was so cold and windy. Not only is it unpleasant but it slows you down and it's like a fight just to keep moving forwards. Ooh well, we are all in the same boat, and at least there is no snow in Lymm.
Chin up everyone...clocks change at the weekend
Panda
I agree with Molly about splitting it into quarters of 5 miles. The first quarter will be done before you know it. Soon after you will be halfway done. After the next section it is then only one more quarter to go - only 1/3 of what you have already done. Sounds less gruelling in my head than than thinking of it as miles 15-20. It never ceases to amaze me how much running is a battle in the mind.
Excellent advice RP particularly the first point, how many people can say they've run that sort of distance, regardless of at what pace, let alone done it on a regular basis for a marathon. Keep telling yourselves that
I went out for an 8 miler last night to get some residual stiffness out of my legs from Wilmslow but also to rejig the schedule for this week, I like to have at least a day off either side of the LSR, so this week Day Off (Tue), 18 miles (Wed), Day Off (Thu), 8 miles (Fri), 7 miles (Sa) and Day Off (Sun).
I have to say that despite not wanting to go out last night and a bitterly cold wind and being a bit apprehensive having only done the HM 24 hours before, I had one of my best runs for ages and it has set me up nicely for Wed LSR
I am going to take it nice and easy and try to enjoy it a bit more, concentrate on keeping a steady pace along with the refuelling and drinking en route, ready for the final 20 mile LSR next week
PL - You're absolutely right, there's alot to be said for the psychology side of the running (The Non Runners Guide to Marathon Running deals extensively with this)
How do people deal with the muscle stiffness and in my case thigh tautness that creeps in around 15-16 miles. I have taken a couple of Nurofen after my last couple of LSR to deal with the stiffness but it's not a habit I wanted to get into, let alone taking anything en route
Hoping for a lie in on Sunday given that all the kids activities are stopped for the holidays too but there's the Easter Treasure Hunt to organise for my 2 which has to have ever more devious clues as they get older!
ha ha RR....At least you will be able to stuff your face with chocolate on Easter Sunday guilt free!
re your muscle stiffness....Are you meaning afterwards? Well, they recommend an ice bath you know (!)...I have never been brave enough though.
Failing that, there are many protein recovery drinks out there (Rego for one). I think the blurb is, you take it within 30 mins of intensive excercise and the protein in there helps your muscles recover more quickly. It tastes like a milkshake really. For me personally, I never notice the difference if I take them or not....so now I don't bother! I can't remember where you live, but I have the best part of a tub of strawberry flavour Rego recovery in my kitchen cupboard that you would be most welcome to have if you want it.
I think any protein would do...eg chicken etc...though I can't imagine feasting on a chicken after a LSR...unless it was in the form of a kebab at about midnight!!
Panda
We're quite mean with the chocolate at Easter although Mrs RR gave up both chocolate and alcohol for Lent so it could get messy on Sunday!
Have tried a cold bath a couple of times and it did make a slight difference, not sure whether that was just the shock to the system and by the time I've plucked up the courage to plunge the muscles are already suffering!
I got some recovery drinks when I got some sample High 5 packs off Amazon and they were OK but I find a bottle of chocolate milkshake does the trick and then something to eat a little later when I've had a shower and had some drinks to hydrate fully. Apparently chocolate milkshake has the ideal proportions of carbohydrate and protein
Yeah, I have heard that about chocolate milkshake. I can't stand it though, or milkshakes in general...makes me want to gag, especially straight after a long run.
Don't be so stingy with that chocolate and booze!!!
Cybarev - I totally hear you mate. I was exactly the same going into my recent half marathon. I'd never ran 13 miles close to sub 1.30 pace before but all my training suggested I was able to do it. How did I know that? Well I monitor my heartrate at different paces and knew that maintaining a heartrate of 90% of max is just about sustainable for a half mara distance. I knew that I had the right pace at slightly less than that heartrate from my longer tempo runs so it was just a case of believing that the marathon training would give me the endurance base necessary to keep it up over the longer distance. I did and I achieved my goal comfortably and had more in the tank but I will admit that I was doubtful right up until I saw the last mile marker come into view and knew I had enough in me.
So that has given me plenty of reassurance and confidence. The reality is, we don't truly know we can ever do any time we aim for if it's new territory. Certainly not on the first marathon. What we do know, though, is these training plans have stood the test of time. The best athletes in the world use exactly these principals. All you can do is believe that the science works because...well...what makes you so special? What makes you so different from all the other thousands of people that the training paid off for? I the nicest possible way, you aren't different, special or unique so it'll work for you just the same as it'll work for anyone.
There is a point you raise though. If you are running the LSR so slow that your gait is fundamentally altered as a result, i'm not sure that's healthy. It says in the P+D Advanced Marathoning book that it should be slow but not so slow that you aren't even practicing your normal gait. A happy balance should be struck. I just use the HRM, that sorts me out and I don't really need to think about the pace, it's whatever my heart wants it to be.
Thanks SB for the advice. I was wondering about my gait and it feels really different going that slowly, as I said more of a shuffle than a run!
I've got a heart rate strap for my Garmin so I guess I could look into HR training, or at least for Manchester, be a bit more disciplined in how I analyse and utilise the data. Dont really use it that much!
Somebody once said to me 'running a marathon was never meant to be easy' and in a strange kind of way that has helped me over time to try and keep going. I keep reminding myself the harder I train, the easier marathon day will be!
Thanks everyone for the advice.