the 5k pb thread

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Comments

  • Sigh! image

    Erm, well no.

    I'm not sure what you're asking really but if you're going to post links to results which dont make any sense, either intuitively or in actuality, then surely it should be at least questioned?

    Do a poll of experienced runners and ask:

    1) Would you expect to have a better chance of a 5K pb by reducing your training load by 100%, 88% or 64% in the final week.
    2) Do you think that running 10K the day before a 5K pb attempt would be detrimental?

    If you get the results you have suggested then fair enough but I'll start it off with the answers:

    1) 64%
    2) No.

    PS: I dont know whether you have actually clicked on the specific '5K taper' link in that article but apparently the taper week should involve 5K paced sessions on 5 successive days, followed by a rest day and then the PB attempt. image

  • *sigh* image

    But as you bring up the detail devil image

    • The study you basing this benefit of tapering on was on highly trained middle distance runners not recreational 5k runners.
    • This single study is over 20 years old, and only looked at 9 athletes (3 per group)
    • The performance improvement wasn't running a faster race, it was being able to run at their average 1500m race pace for longer.

    Their conclusions were that agressive (no running) tapers are crap, low intensity running tapers are a bit better and you're better off with a high intensity running taper. I think I would roughly agree with that for a long distance race too, at least for a short term gain (an 'A' race) not so sure long term though.

    I don't really agree with your "*** 3 stars. It will work" telling people to not run for 3 days before a 5k race, I think "It might work or it might make things worse" would be more accurate. I seem to remember seeing data that aggressive tapers were even worse in recreational runners than those who are highly trained.

    My friends who don't belong to clubs and don't understand physiology are those that tend to think you need to have an aggresive no running taper before a race. They don't need to be told to have a rest, they need to be told it won't do you any harm to have a short run with a few strides the day before a race.

     

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    I know someone who thought racing a 5K the day before a marathon was a good idea. image

  • Dr Dan - I think the notorious case to which you refer was a 'gentle 5K' which morphed into a race after 1K. image

  • I managed to knock a big chunk off my parkrun PB just by starting nearer the front. There's no chip timing so you can lose a good 30s if you start right at the back.

    Obviously you need to be sensible so you're not holding other people up. If you check the previous week's results you can get a good idea where you'll finish, so you can start in roughly the position you'll finish in. You also don't lose time overtaking people.

  • thanks for the feedback guys, some great comments. So we've done tapers and probably all agree in our own ways that you need one (surely that;s not a controversial choice of wordsimage)

    so now what about things you can take on the day ... nitrates (beetroot juice) and caffeine. Personally I think both work (only a bit tho I'll not suggest brianmac's 22% here). It's OK I have my flameproof suit on now so you can really go for it.

    For you seasoned athletes out there, as has been rightly pointed out, training gets you into the right position. But what about those little things that can eek out a few extra seconds...like maybe caffeine and maybe dietary nitrates. Or maybe any benefit is just psychological.

     

  • Stevie G . wrote (see)

    5k, out of interest, what's your pedigree/experience, as I see you giving a lot of tips out.

    6 weeks seems to be the time a lot of people give for training to come into effect for faster times, so I'm genuinely all ears what you think can make you "quite a lot faster" in a week's time.

    Stevie, I think you missed the point somewhat. He's not saying you can improve without training, he's just suggesting little things that might make a few seconds difference to your time and some of them are quite valid, although the stats might be wrong. Tapers, for instance - although what works for one person may be different than another, a lot of runners seem happy to taper for three weeks for a marathon but won't bother tapering at all for a 5k and then they wonder why they haven't got much speed in their legs.

    I think in future if everyone checks their 'pedigree' meets with your approval before posting any tips on here then we should all be ok though image

  • Setting off faster than race pace works. There was some research that found that with 5k if you set out a little above your race pace you can run the race faster. This is you have the endurance an extra pace in your legs.

    Caffeine works by increasing your ability to cope with pain. It won't make you a faster runner you'll just be able to push harder for longer but you'll pay for it after.

    Another thing that was discussed here and found to work was to race a 5k each week for 3 weeks to see an improvement.

    I guess it all depends at what level you are running.

  • Berocca, Banana, Large coffee and run faster than I should, followed by a mid afternoon snooze. image

    I also ran 3 PB's in a row after I bought my Garmin Forerunner having not had a PB for 6 months prior to that.

  • DarenF wrote (see)
    Stevie G . wrote (see)

    5k, out of interest, what's your pedigree/experience, as I see you giving a lot of tips out.

    6 weeks seems to be the time a lot of people give for training to come into effect for faster times, so I'm genuinely all ears what you think can make you "quite a lot faster" in a week's time.

    Stevie, I think you missed the point somewhat. He's not saying you can improve without training, he's just suggesting little things that might make a few seconds difference to your time and some of them are quite valid, although the stats might be wrong. Tapers, for instance - although what works for one person may be different than another, a lot of runners seem happy to taper for three weeks for a marathon but won't bother tapering at all for a 5k and then they wonder why they haven't got much speed in their legs.

    I think in future if everyone checks their 'pedigree' meets with your approval before posting any tips on here then we should all be ok though image


    I think you must have missed the whole improve by up to 22% through just tapering bit.

    That's the bone of contention, as no one at any level improves by that within a week.

    The whole basis of these training tips seems to be along the lines of a "get rich quick" scheme.

    For the "seasoned" athletes talked about, you might have to rely on the small things to get a slight improvement in performance, but the runners the tips are aimed at simply need to train more.

    ps I think it's valid to ask for a bit of background. Giving loads of tips out is lovely, but needs to be backed up

  • Dear 5krunner,

    I started Parkrunning in September at Alexandra Park Oldham, which is quite a hilly course with an average time of 28.54 for all competitors and a 60m net climb.

    I have next to no pedigree nor would i consider myself a seasoned runner. I have however PB'd my last eight weekly parkrun's so thought I'd share with you my training plan.

    I have gone down from 24.17 on the 8th September this year to 21.13 at the weekend just gone, I'm very pleased with this.

    Here are my results:-

    http://www.parkrun.org.uk/oldham/results/athletehistory?AthleteNumber=345077

    My prior running experience consisted of entering the odd 10k maybe once or twice a year, but since discovering the parkruns i've got a regular weekly yardstick to judge my progress. I'm also involved in some clinical research into short burst training at Manchester University (FXI training), which is done on a bike, the details are here:-

    http://www.mmu.ac.uk/news/news-items/1591/

    Anyway for what it's worth here is my weekly training routine, I have started having Thursday and Friday off, or at the most a one mile run on each day to allow my body to recover in time for Saturday morning. I've posted similar elsewhere on here but here goes..

    Saturday=Parkrun then FXI

    Sunday = Weights (not legs)

    Monday = 3x1km sprints at 3min20secs per km with 5 minutes rest

    Tuesday = FXI

    Wednesday = Long slow run 1 hour at 7mph 1% incline

    Thursday off or slow 1 mile run

    Friday off or slow 1 mile run.

    I also eat a bowl of pasta on Thursday and Friday for my dinner and last Saturday on the morning of the race I had a cup of Nescafe Gold Blend approx 1 half hour before the race, although I am not sure I will do this again as it made my legs feel a bit shakey and i felt nervous.

    I weigh about 13st 3lbs

    Thanks

     

  • Top running Oogles!



    No one yet seems to gave suggested being more aerodynamic (I say with tongue firmly in cheek)...anyone going to admit to shaving body hair in the race for a pb?! but tighter fitting clothes might help?
  • I'm an off-and-on runner with about 30 years on the clock and am now in my very late 50s. I've always been able to pick up the sport again reasonably quickly after a lay-off of which there have been very many!

    In my 30s I just dipped under 40 mins for 10K - once - and then slipped into the low 40s for a few years; my 10K times more or less reflecting my march through my own 40s.

    However my latest 'comeback' has been a bit of a revelation. I've only run a couple of races in the last 2 years. I have been training for a couple of months and entered a local (flat-as-pancake) 5K. I would have been delighted with 22:40; I got 20:41. 

    I can hardly believe it. I now wonder whether sub-20 is in my grasp? This would put me into a different class.

    I think what this shows to any slightly younger guys out there is that you can not only improve in relative (age related) terms but in absolute terms too (I was about a 21:45 5K runner in my late 40s/early 50s). You just have to have a sustained period without injury (not always easy in later years), lose a bit of weight, if applicable, and, well, get out there.

    I'm not the running-across-USA-as-an-amputee level of hero or anything - but it just shows the improvement that an ordinary runner can make at a time when the temptation is to put on the slippers! In one run I've gone from someone with a 69% ceiling ranking to a 75%. - something I would have thought was possible.

    After all, there's always a new age category to 'look forward' to..............

    Any tips on shaving off the 40 seconds much appreciated - we are all still learing and (we hope) improving.............

  • That was meant to be 'learning' by the way!

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