P + D training for VLM 2013



  • Ten - Well done on your run, sounds like you had a great run in horrid conditions, it must be a real confidence booster. 

    HeOw I ran my half yesterday after a takeaway and wine the night before and never felt better during the race, hope your run went as well!

    NN - good run, and so consistent with pacing.

    Men - I hope you are soon recovered and can run without aggravating the injury. 

    I only got a number for the Stafford Half last week as a friends sister dropped out, so I took it as I thought I could race it 5 weeks out, looking at my stats afterwards, I realise I got a 10k pb during the second half and average for the whole race was only 2 secs per mile slower than my 10k pace. I was dead on 9mm average after 8 miles and felt good so decided to up it a bit to finish with an average of 8.55mm. Not sure why my tempo pace that is so hard on my own, felt so manageable in the race though.image

  • Pottermiss I can see how excited you still are, rightly so , I guess you are targeting sub 4.15 based on that time ? 

  • Race day has a lot to answer for. Great run that. To be strong like that at the end should be a huge confidence booster. Everyone Must be getting excited now?!
  • Morning all and great running yesterday on the long ones and well done Pottermiss on the PB

    I swapped yesterdays 18 with 14 at MP (will be run as part of a 20 miler next week) for the Colchester HM.  I didn't taper for it so was pleased to come in at chip time 1.38.18, not a PB but I would be hard pushed to keep running those now, but certainly the quickest I have run a HM for several years, by several minutes. 7.32 average.

    This hasn't helped me make up my mind.  From HMs I have run over the last couple of years I was aiming to run VLM at about 3.40, so approx 8.15 per mile.  Looking at Jack Daniels it suggests 3.25 at 7.48 pace?

    I should have just run it at MP and then it wouldn't have me thinking twice!

    Any thoughts?

    Garmin here http://connect.garmin.com/activity/285373704

    Race results here http://www.chiptiminguk.co.uk/ps/results/Colchester%20Half%20Marathon%202013/7533

  • JF5O nice run well done, but 3.40 is 8.25 pace not 8.15s which would give you 3.35 a big difference for me !!, just had a look at your HR stats , very low superb run. Going by the HR rather than the result, yes nearer 3.30 for you I would say.


  • What a beautifully split race JF50!  Well done.  Hmm, I would probably head towards 8m/m with a 7:30m/m HM.  I would say aiming to keep going for another 13.1 at 7:48m/m would be impossible for me if my HM was 7:30m/m.  Why not err on side of caution, go off around 8:15/10 for first few miles and then just gradually up the pace and if you can race the final 7-8 miles, that is when you can hit the gas.  I would say most people only hit the "wall" when they have started too fast" and deciding that their race pace is a bit too fast. You will know more when you have done your 18 with 14, I know I will. 

    Well done also to Pottermiss and Ten on fabulous PBs!  You are both reaping the benefits of this plan.  

    NN - well done on your 17 with 14, very well ran there.

    Mennania - that is EXACTLY what is happening with my foot, no amount of rest or icing it has helped, I am stretching and aiming to strengthen weak spots so I am just praying, come race day, I can manage it or it has subsided.  Fingers crossed same for you

    I did my 12 miler, bloody hell, there is a reason why in the plan the Friday was 12 and Sunday was 20, obviously I changed this for time reasons but, it was hard, plus foot buggering about (it is no worse but running for 5 hours over 3 days really tested my will with how much of it I can handle).  I hit hillier route as found going uphill takes pressure off the joint but coming down hill was a killer. I wanted to throw towel in on mile 2 but I have become a right hard bastard... image Anyway, 50 miles in 4 runs for me last week, considering I was thinking I was having to pull out of Manchester, I am pleased with that.  I didn't do the 5 mile recovery as cross training instead. Will maybe not do spinning AND circuits as recovery training though... 

    I have a number for Wilmslow, just sorting it out.  The desire to race it has now become huge.  What do I do...?  Race it and do it instead of one my 17 milers and change the 18 with 14 to week after? 


  • HeOw , I give up with you image you will race it  know you will. One of 2 things will happen a PB or a knackered foot, the choice is yours...image Glad the foot is holding up.

  • NN - I am thinking the more sensible and easier option (as marathon is goal A...) is to do what I originally said and do it at MRP. Will be good discipline plus, give me a better idea if my foot is ok to run the long at MRP and also, give me better clue as to my MRP.  Then I have got the big last session out the way.  It is hard to enter a race knowing you won't race it! 

  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭

    HeOw - we are little marathon soldiers arent weimage I am hoping that it doesnt get too much worse between now and taper. I am currently eating, drinking and wearing ibuprofen though. You have a tune up race of 13 at pmp in acouple of weeks dont you? I would swap it with that or do a gentle one or two warm up and down and incorporate it into the 17.

    Nice run JF50 and Pottermiss

    NN - speed friggin work is how I did it. VO2 = broke. Well for me at least it does. Missed all of last summer/autumn with a psoas injury caused by vo2 sessions.

  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭

    HeOw - Have you tried kanesio taping your foot for a little more support?

  • Morning All

    Well done to everyone on their weekend long MP runs – we’re certainly getting to the sharp end of things now!

    Well another week’s training ticked off for me with yesterday’s 18/14 – ran the 18 in 2:00:30 with the 14 mile MP section @ 1:32:23 (6:36 Av pace) so quite pleased with how it went (wasn’t looking forward to it tbh)

    I think I’m in the same boat as Al and one or two others in that I’m still not convinced that sub 3 is achievable but I’m at least confident I’ll be in decent shape to give it a good go (& I’ll certainly be doing that!) – still very wary of that last 6 miles come race day though – I know it’s gonna be mega tough!!

    Enjoy your running this week folks – hope the sun shines for everybody


  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Congratulations to Pottermiss and JF50!

    HeOw, bet you anything you do race it...

  • Dave. Great mp run. I did the [email protected] 6.31 pace which is significantly quicker than sub 3. But I too remain unconvinced I can do sub 3. It wasn't a massive struggle, but I'm not sure I had 12 more miles left in the legs at the pace. What are your plans come race day on the back of that run? I still have no idea how to approach it and if it's an indicator that it's possible?
  • Chris J77 & Dave - You'll never know if you don't try, its new terrority for me also, I'm looking forward to the last 6.2, I think its what the marathon is all about, if I fail, i'll be back.  

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    JF50 and Pottermiss - well done on your races. Pottermiss makes a good point - in races a faster pace always seems a bit more natural/easier than in training, which is why those who are doubting whether they can reach certain goals in the marathon should also remember the race affect.

    HeOw - I am with you in that no idea how to pace the Wilmslow marathon. If I really really tried hard I reckon I could get 1hr23 or thereabouts; but I think I may well knacker the rest of the week's training. So, I might just go for a PB (1hr26.58), or maybe sub 1hr25.


  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    As long as you are not totally injured or haven't hit a wall....the last 6 miles is mainly a mental battle which I think you get better at dealing with the more marathons you do, I certainly have in the 3 marathons I have ran previously. You just want to stop so much, so you have to keep fighting that...keep telling yourself 6 miles is easypeasy, the distance of a recovery run in training, count down the miles, tell yourself why you are doing this, pain is temporary etc etc.

  • Part of me thinks that it's going to be a battle no matter what the pace, so go out hard in the knowledge of a fade, but with a big buffer to play with. The other part of me is sensible! Ha.
  • Literatin/15 - I don't think I will be racing it, I think at the moment, what with my foot not being 100%, it could be suicide plus I have loads of time the rest of the year to concentrate on getting a sub 1:40 HM time.  If I went balls out at Wilmslow (I definitely held back at Wrexham and it was fine for my to train the week after), I would no doubt compromise the rest of my training by either getting injured or falling ill.  Sometimes, you have to put your race ego firmly in a cupboard for the day, I would get more benefits doing decent 18 with 14 at MRP and feel confident about Manchester than maybe not PB'ing at Wilmslow and feeling down about my training.  Decision made... image  15 - maybe just go for a PB and NOT smash it but if you feel very strong last 4 miles push it up a bit, you'll know what it best on Sunday. 

    Chris - you would be far better to hold back than go off too fast mate, believe me, no matter how good or fast a runner you are, you push too fast that first Half, you build up that lactic acid and the last few miles are torture.  I have known sub 3:15 female runners to do this and end up walking the last few miles.  You have nothing to gain from doing it - like we keep saying, you want to race the final 10k and it should feel easy up until mile 18.   I may not be as fast as some of you lot but I have learned a lot! Doing 22 miles in training doesn't even touch what happens come race day.  Agree with 15, it is a huge mental battle but the training properly also helps! 


  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Just don't over do it at the for first half when you are feeling good Chris - if you are going sub 3 then stick to the 6.50 pace (maybe a pacer you can follow which will help a lot), if going for a faster goal then stick to that pace, just try keep pace constant.

  • I think that is the biggest error most marathoners make 15 isn't it?  They feel so bloody good after a taper etc and first 13 miles are just a breeze, so they start picking it up too early.  Then BOOM, wall hits and sometimes your legs won't work with your brain, no matter how much mental will you have.  You can't force your body to do anything it won't want to do with respects of pace.   I also think people mistake steady pace with HMRP and run their first marathon too close to their HMRP and there are only so many miles you can run that fast for.  

  • Hi Chris, great running mate

    As far as race day goes my plan is bang in line with the advice that HeOw has just posted - ie I'm planning to run bang on 3hr pace (6:50) despite running all my 'MP' runs quicker to date - I'll then assess the situation at 20 miles (still on 6:50 pace hopefully) and if I feel good I'll try pushing from there or if not I'll just try to maintain the 6:50 pace  to the finish - I'm certainly not going to go out (ie through halfway) any faster than goal (sub 3) pace though, that's definate!

    How about you, what strategy are you planning?


  • Thanks for your thoughts, NN and HeOw I think you have it about right, look towards 3.30 but try to achive with a negative split, look how easy I made that soundimage

    NN that's a 59 year old heart so you can't expect it to go too fastimage

  • JF50..it was only 75% of YOUR max, I would expect it to reach 89-90 racing,no matter your age. I take it you have done HRM test ?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    In the P&D book (I think) it kind've recommends positive splitting for all but the elite, but not sure if that wise personally. I think trying to keep splits as even as possible is the way to go. Most runners will positive split though...hard not to.

     "edit - P&D recommends a very small positive split infact"

  • I ran my pb marathon with a 4 min neg split which although felt great and I finished comfortably I know I could have / should have tried harder in the first half trouble is London in so crowded its hard to get into marathon pace for bloody ages

  • Oh I agree, I think it is pretty hard to race to your best and get a negative split but if you look at some of the top 50 runners of marathons, there are a fair few who absolutely cane the first Half and positive split by far too much, they should know better.  A few mins positive split to be expected.  However, if you start race at 6:30 and finish at 8:30m/m, you know you have gone out too fast but it is highly unlikely if you start at your realistic race pace, you will be doing a 5:30m/m last few miles!  YOu just want to hang on as best you can, in my mind, that I what I will be doing.  The only people I know who have negativeiy split hugely (like NN says) have started around 40-50 secs slower than race pace and ramped up.  Everyone is different though.  

  • Men - I haven't tried taping as need to be shown what to do properly to be honest, but I have considered it. 

  • Afternoon all

    Too much reading back to comment on individually but hope all the injuries are improving and well done on all the running and ice baths image

    I managed to complete all the planned runs while away on holiday. The only one not completed as written was the 18 with 14 at MP.  As I had to wait until after breakfast for that one it was 27 degrees and glorious sunshine by the time I set out and I found it tough.  In fact the last time I found a lsr that bad after just 4 or 5 miles was a marathon in 27 degrees in May in the UK!  It was also rather congested at that time of day so had to stop start quite a bit.  Gave up after 15.2 miles and then walked 2 miles to make up a bit of distance.  Used HRM for pacing and the 4 warm up miles were faster pace than the marathon paced section due to the heat.  However, I suspect that I will have got as much out of it and my legs were already pretty tired from having to change the week around to accomodate travelling and therefore only having 1 rest day.  While I'm glad I missed the snow I hope it is not quite that warm at VLM this year.

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    15West is 1:26 your half marathon PB at the moment?

    Fiona J well done on the holiday runs running in the heat is harder.

    HeOw try the tape I know a few peeps who have used it.

    Peeps just be careful as the VLM course is not a neg split course due to the fact that the first 7 or so miles are slight down hill and you have a few ramps to climb in the last 4 or 5 miles.

    1 mile swim this morning and a nice short recovery run later image
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Current PB is 1.26.58...so, lets round it up to 1.26! I have gone sub 3 in a marathon so in theory should be able to get nearer 1hr25.....

    Hills...? In London...?

    Anyone planning on taking a short cut in London?

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