P + D training for VLM 2013

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  • Did the interval session tonight.  Have a head cold so feeling it a bit.

  • Glad the pain has cleared Heow. I'd love to get out on the trails near me for my training runs, but the dark nights make it impossible. I will have to chose an Autumn Marathon next time.

    NP - I'm leaning towards your way of thinking re the positive split and half way mark of 1.27. I think only the elites can really push for times at the edge of their capabilities and still post a negative split.

    6 X 660m's (or 0.4 miles for Garmin purposes) done and dusted. Some decent pace in the legs with average pace around the 5.25 mark. I treated myself to a sports massage last night though and my legs always feel a bit wobbly the day or so afterwards. So glad to get it over and done with. Anyone planning a pre-London massage? and if so, how long before the race are you thinking of getting it?

     

  • Chris,

     

    You can change the units on the Garmin to km, set the intervals to 600m, then change back to miles.  That way you can run the prescribed distance and still see you m/m.

  • Good interval work being put down.

    Busy day for me today, as usual the thread motors on. Did my 5 x 600m early this morning averaging 5.45 pace for the repeats.

    Interesting that people are favouring positive splits. Is this course specific? My last 2 marathons were negative split and then even split and I really felt even split gave me the best possible performance. Have to say I'd personally feel a bit reckless aiming for a positive split of more than a minute or so. But I'll happily defer to those who've experienced the VLM.

    Lots of reading back to do but I'm knackered so to bed. Catch up tomorrow...

     

  • For me VLM has been a neg split 3 out of 4 times, the 4th was just a disaster, bad lead up and too warm on the day.

    Surely a positive split only happens if you go off too fast I don't get how you can actually go out AIMING for a positive split I agree with AL its reckless

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    I think it is more a case of wanting a few minutes' leeway at the end in case of a fade, rather than planning to definitely positive split, so I'd be planning to do it at an even pace, but would want to have allowed for that not quite coming off so I wouldn't feel under masses of pressure for all 26.2 miles. I don't think anyone's planning to go zooming off at a totally unsustainable pace on purpose.

  • Yeah definately a case of allowing a few minutes for fade. Loads of the results around the 3 hour mark all seem to have a few minutes of fade in them from what I could see.
  • So far, my racing has improved at all the shorter distances up to half marathon by pacing for even splits.  So I'm not going to change it for the marathon.  Once a mile has gone, I can pretty much forget about it and concentrate on my current mile.  My pacing has been disastrous when I've tried to overthink the race.

    My biggest concern is the weather.  If it's not cold, snowy, wet and windy, then I'm probably unprepared!

  • Yeah I'm with you ten. I have got everything crossed for a slightly overcast, wind free dry cool day. It will probably be a monsoon now!
  • On preparing for warm conditions I am wondering if I should do a few more runs on the treadmill. My gym temperature is 19 degrees. Running on the mill is like running in a sauna, but may get me used to the heat.
  • I guess the answer is have your own race plan in your head and stick to it, its hard to go off too fast anyway it is a crowded course, Ten like you I shall aim for even splits, erring on the side of caution and hope for a strong finish rather than a fade, much more comfortable.

    SR that maybe a good idea, 3 out of my 4 VLMs were favourable conditions.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Just dug out my Chester marathon times from last year. 1st half in 1.29.22, 2nd half 1.29.32...how even is that!!! (marathon time is 2.58.54...think I have calculated that right).

  • Fantastic pacing 15w 

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    SR - preparing for warm conditions? You're optimistic. We're entering another ice age I think. Actually running in gym to prepare for heat is probably quite a good idea if you can be bothered...but only a few times as you need to get your legs fully used to running on tarmac (something I'm not doing as I mostly run on trails).

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    It's bloody well snowing again here.

  • Only 4 runners how went through half above 1.30.10 got below 3 ie a negative split of 11secs or more. This has been discussed on the sub3.15 thread with some heavyweight marathon runners weighing in with their massively experienced view - there is no concensus and some beleive going off faster for a fade is a self fulfilling prophecy but the stats are the stats.

    SR - Like the idea of an lsr in the gym.

    15w - Nice pacing particularly given Chester Defo has a more challenging second half.

    HeOw - Great news - You running Wrexham 10k in a couple of weeks?

    Edit - 9 for me last night with 5 x 600 at HMP (not VO2), Still the same but no worse.

  • How many are planning on racing this weekend? Schedule has 8k-15k tune-up race on Saturday. There is actually a 10k near to me on Saturday...at 8am. But I haven't managed a 22M run yet so my dilemma is whether to hold back on Saturday with a general aerobic run and do a 22 on Sunday OR race on Sat and do 17/18M on Sunday. What's more important at this stage? I feel like doing both could wipe me out for next week's VO2max.

    On warm conditions...I have occasionally been wearing an extra base layer for simulating hot weather discomfort...

  • I wonder how many were targeting sub 2.55 - 2.50  though, was it deliberate positive just just to get sub 3 by a couple minutes or were they hoping for better  and were disappointed with sub 3 if you know what I mean ?I guess they knew what they were doing being experienced though.

    Maybe you guys should pop over to the sub 3 thread for some advice.

    AL no race for me I am working image so I will just go and run a fast session, at least I will win image

  • Something else I like about even pacing is overtaking all the positive splitters during the second half of the race. I find that a massive psychological boost which keeps me feeling strong. At the moment I'm thinking I'll pace a 1.29 first half, try to even split that in the second half and if I just can't cope then I'll have about 9 seconds per mile to play with in the second half. Wow it sounds so easy...

    Good luck winning your race NN!

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Al - you could compromise...you could do the race then run 20 the following day, or do your own tempo on the friday or saturday...say 4 or 5 miles at LT pace and then 22 on sunday...?

    I have 14 miles today but might add a few miles as have a half on sunday instead of my 17mi LR.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Al - agree about the overtaking. That's what I tend to do - find someone ahead to catch up with and then take over....then onto the next one. Of course some are doing the same to me!

    At Chester though I did go take over a lot of people in the 2nd half of the race who had passed me in the 1st half.

  • 15W - are your trails flat or hilly and will your legs not be battered during the race when you hit the tarmac for 26.2?  Reason I am asking this is I think, to manage rest of the plan, most of my runs are going to have to be on trails but the Sandstone Trail is quite brutal in places and far too hard for me to do 3-4 hours on (rather than a 20 miler) and still be fresh for other runs.  

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    My trails are mainly flat and are either on muddy or gravel paths - so actually pretty good for running on. The only problem I have sometimes is slippery mud and big puddles to jump over.

  • Out at 5am for an 11 mile MLR this morning, it was light enough to turn the headtorch off after a couple of milesimage

    Men that's a good description of strides, and how not to look when you do them.  I sometimes do my strides on a straight flat bit of road on an industrial estate, just repeats along 100 yards or so of it.  As I often run early in the morning there are few people to watch my old man impressions of somebody trying to run fast, apart from the occasional early worker at a couple of the factories.  One morning I am doing these repeats when an alarm goes off in one of the factores I am running past so I have visions now of the police turning up and arresting me for whatever they imagine I am doing, you can hide a lot of goods in the little zipped poskets of training gear after all!  Even worse getting tasered because I won't stop till the end of my effortimage 

    Re running in the warm, or practicing for it, I guess the easy way is to wear more layers, realistically though it's not the same as 20degC of London sunshine on a fine April day

     

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    Well done JF 50 - I was surprised too this morning that the 2nd half of my run was in daylight. When did that happen? I wear a million layers already (looking like the proverbial Michelin man) but I'm still cold image


    Men: PML ... that's the best description of strides I've ever seen image

    HeOw: yeah!! No foot pain - bring on them trails image. I haven't done may strides either image. It's too bliddy early in the morning to remember everything and more often than not I simply forget them.

    Negative split is the way to go. Never managed it - I usually do a minute positive split in my marathons. Best performance was London 2010 with a 45 sec positive split. Pisses me off, it does. One day I will hopefully bag a negative one though.


    13 mile MLR d&d. I found a 2 mile stretch of pavement with very little ice and ran that up and down, up and down image. Almost as bad as dreadmill running that was. Made up by running 10 miles in the middle a bit faster (80% of max. HR if any HADDers are around). Av. pace for the whole run 8mm exactly; 7:53 was the faster bit.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Dibaba has pulled out of London - that's a shame.

  • did 5x600m (each in 2:28, which was pretty fast for me) yesterday, plus warmup/cooldown. Today my right quad is feeling pretty sore :-

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭
    15West wrote (see)

    My trails are mainly flat and are either on muddy or gravel paths - so actually pretty good for running on. The only problem I have sometimes is slippery mud and big puddles to jump over.

    I like to splash through the puddles like a child.

     

    Re. positive/negative splitting, I sometimes have the impression that P&D is training us to negative split - I've got used to running my long runs with a massive negative split (albeit obviously slower than the real thing), as I do the first 9 miles or so at MP + 20%, the next 9 at =10% and the last couple at race pace. The other day when doing an 18-miler I planned to just run it at an even pace because of being careful with the tight calves and set off at about 8:20 pace which is somewhere in the 10-20% range. But I wasn't paying much attention to pacing because I thought I was just doing it steady, and ended up speeding up gradually throughout the second half just on autopilot.

    My plan will be to aim for an even pace but one that allows for a slight fade if that happens, and then to let myself speed up after 20 miles if I'm feeling good.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    PS: great run AG, and now you get all the fun of the dreaded foam roller quad massage...

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    foam roller ....   image

    AG: that's seriously shifting! Well done image

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