P + D training for VLM 2013



  • Man up
  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    LOL NPimage

    [NP continues to wear hat and gloves in April, to get used to running hot...advice I will follow this year.]

  • Any advice on running gloves? At the moment I wear a thin pair of Nikes as inners, a thicker pair of Nikes on top, then cotton gloves on top of that... and my hands are still cold!

  • Mxb You need to man up!

    I have this quote stored on my phone and I use it as inspiration when I need motivation.

    "Athletes: Don't take the sport you play for granted. Every time you play, you better be dang thankful that you get to do something you love. Don't show up to practice complaining about not wanting to be there; you're there hopefully because you love it. Work hard every moment. If you're not working hard, you don't deserve to play. Play every practice or game like it's your last because it very well could be. When you finally reach the day that you can't play, and you can only watch, then you will know how much you love something that you once took for granted."
  • mxb seriously man up !! I know what you mean though, although I actually LOVE running in freezing weather (honestly) I don't like it if it very wet/windy.Remember that winter 2 years ago when it started snowing in mid Nov and the temps didn't go above freezing for weeks ? well I plodded on, bought some yax trax for the trainers and got on with it...BUT VLM 2011 was unfortunately a gloriously sunny day image temps 23 or so by the time I got to 15 miles I hated every step of the way I really dont run well once it goes over about 18 /20 degs I over heat terribly, but its the chance you take I have done London in lovely light rain and got a PB image

    As for gloves I keep a box of hospital latex gloves at home to wear under my running gloves image

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    mxb - sorry, have to agree with NP . 11M at 5.30am at - 2C and just the one pair of gloves image Mine are Karrimor ones i think which i got from Sports Direct ... if i'm feeling the cold anywhere it'll be in my hands but they work a treat.

    Re entering races as part of long runs, how do you guys time those runs ? Do you try for a seamless transition into the race ?

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    mark - great quote, i like that image

  • mark , all I need to do is be at work to appreciate what I can do and NEVER take it for granted , I work in neuro rehab where just walking to the toilet is an achievment for most of our patients, I have to slap myself if I am disapointed with a recent race  !!! so what if you dont get PB ? be glad you can do it at all 

  • Exactly Night Nurse and the thing is most of us will end up like your patients.

    I know how annoyed I get when I can't train which makes me realise how I take my health and fitness for granted sometimes.

    I'm someone that quite likes training in the cold, the hardest bit is just getting out of the door!

    I did a race in Austria this summer and the temperature hit 40c, that was tough!!
  • mxb - if you are seriously thinking of giving up because it's too cold, then you might as well give up any idea of running a marathon.

    Running a marathon is a test of mental strength as well as physical endurance, and if a few days of cold weather has put you off, then you may as well give up now and go do something easy....

    * YP goes for the tough talking, reverse psychology approach * image

  • Thanks guys... I may start the plan next week, but if it isn't any fun, why do it? It's just a hobby after all.

    Mace: depends on the venue. If it starts in a big field, you could get there early and do warm up laps until it's time to start, then do the race, then a few cool down laps afterwards? If the start venue doesn't allow you to do this, you could always "keep going" at the end to add on the distance without worrying about a break in your run?

  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    Teknik: Many thanks for working out those paces (MP minus 10% and 20%) for me. I never did like maths! And sorry to hear about your tendonitis. How frustrating.

    From reading the book, I thought that I would have to do my long runs faster than I do at the moment (I take them pretty slow) but 9:26 is pretty close to my average pace. The book empasises that long runs shouldn't be done at a slow jog, but if I was running at 10:18 (MP minus 20%) I would consider that to be a pretty slow jog!

    All in all, I think the most challenging thing about starting the 16-week schedule will be the large chunks of marathon pace during the long runs so early on. How does anyone else find that?

  • Go Caz, I just ran my first 13 miles with 8 at target MP a la P&D, and found it really tough. In fact, surprisingly tough, as it was effectively a half mara at about 10 mins over my recent HM race time. That's just 8 compared to 26 in the real thing. Gulp!

    mxb, there are some non-fun aspects of this training business, but for me the cold is certainly not one of them. I heat up so much I usually regret having put an extra layer or gloves on after only about 10 minutes. I'm with NightNurse on this one.

  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    Lunchtime Runner, that sounds tough! Did you do the 8 miles at the end of the run or in the middle? Which marathon are you training for? Regarding the cold, as long as I am dressed in enough layers it's fine. In fact, I find running is one of the few ways to get nice and warm in the winter! I agree with NightNurse - I'm grateful to be able to do what I love.

  • Indeed it was tough, and it's only the first and shortest MP run in the P&D 18 week sub 55 plan. 5 miles easy to start at roughly MP+15/20%, then 8 miles to the end at MP.

    I'm training for Milton Keynes on May 6th, so the 18 week plan "starts" on Jan 1st - rather neatly. But I have been building my mileage up (mostly late 30s per week now, did a peak of 44 a couple of weeks ago), and testing out various P&D suggested efforts. Longest long run so far is 17 miles.

  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    Sounds like you are well ahead then. I have always done 16-week plans previously, but will be starting the 18 week one on December 17. If it was much longer, I think there would be a danger of getting bored and peaking too early. I think P&D used to do 24 weeks but that doesn't seem to be in my edition of the book. 

  • My book has the 24 weeks its the older version I think more longer runs but less at MP.which I prefer really. I will use mid week club runs as MP ie 2 mile run  there then run 7/8 with club at about 8.20s then run back 2 miles that's enough for me. Our club also does a marathon group run on Saturdays which I shall do occasionally , slightly faster than what I should do they run about 8.45s so a couple of those will add a bit of pace.

  • Because of the icy weather I decided to go to the gym last night to use the treadmill, its the first time ive used the treadmill for a few years and i couldnt believe the difference.

    It felt a lot easier than running outside because the surface isnt as hard, but i also felt like i was running way faster than the treadmill was telling me. I got up to marathon pace and it felt like i was running the 1500m the speed my legs were going!

    Does anybody else use a treadmill? Im wondering how accurate the speed is on them.

  • Mark - I occasionally use the treadmill. I suppose there will always be a degree on inaccuracy with regards to the speed especially if they are not regularly calibrated.  It does always feel easier on the treadmill as there is no wind resistance or uneveness of the ground to make it more difficult.  I always use a 1-2% incline on the treadmill as I understand that is supposed to make it more like road running.  I find the worst thing about the treadmill is boredom.  It just always seems like you've been on there forever.

    I've managed to get outside and run every day.  A couple of years ago I invested in a pair of Inov8 trail shoes which are fantastic in all this snowy and icy weather so nothing has been stopping me .......yet.

  • I hope to start the 18 week program on the 17th. I say hope because last week a sprained my ankle which reduced my milage a little. Was planning to do the 55 mile to 70 mile version but that requires me to have been doing 45 miles a week as a base. I had been doing that up to the injury. Went for a run last night and felt ok but a bit sore this am.
  • mark, fiona, check this link out: http://www.hillrunner.com/training/tmillchart.php

    Essentially, what it says is (try reading across the 7.5 mph, 8 min mile row): running outside on the flat and on a windless day is equivalent to (a) treadmill running at 1% incline OR  (b) treadmill running 0.3 mph (ie 0.5 kph) faster. That's why many people put treadmills at 1% (or a bit more, see below). Personally, I add 0.5 kph if I'm trying to match a certain pace, as I'm not sure always running slightly uphill is a good idea (I use treadmills quite often).

    The main difference is wind resistance, which you don't get on the treadmill obviously. But it never is totally flat outside, and winds tend to shift around etc., so 1%-2% is a not unreasonable guide.

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    The year I followed the P&D I was also mentored through the Forum 6.......



    Have you been shunned by Asics?

    Stuck in a training rut?

    Got a marathon place and can only run round the block??

    Busy busy busy and no time to train??

    I have six lovely mentors all lined up and chomping at their Mizunos to get involved

    All you have to do is to tell us why you should be given the prize of the millenium


    Should not threaten to harm small animals
    Should not send people to sleep or need a screen break

    It will contain your hopes for a marathon time
    It will contain your marathon entry confirmed
    It will contain a brief running history of recent times and pb's

    We would love to hear all about YOU, strengths, weaknesses and limitations


    This thread will close on Monday 17th December and then Kittenkat and her esteemed Adjudicator(s) will cogitate the pitches and we will then announce the LUCKY SIX on Christmas Eve

    Asics 6??  As they said on Channel 4 ... thanks for the warm up     image

    Click on the link below to be taken to the pitching page.....


  • Hi Everyone, I'm considering changing my training plan and would appreciate hearing what you all think.

    In an act of stupidity (I'm good at them), I've signed up to do the Edinburgh Marathon which takes place just 5 weeks after the VLM. These will be only my 2nd and 3rd marathons.

    My original plan was to start the up to 55 P&D plan for London and then do a 5 week recovery schedule based on the schedules in the P&D section on Mulitiple Marathoning.

    However I'm now thinking that I'll start my schedule 5 weeks later, run London as a really long LSR and focus my attempts of a PB on Edinburgh. Part of the reason I'm thinking of doing that is the fact that I feel like I'm struggling to get my weekly mileage up to a level that I'll even be able to start P&D training properly. My avg weekly mileage for the the last couple of months has been in the low to mid 20's (that's still about double of what it usually is and I've never ran more than 30 in a week  image)

    I think there are advantages & disadvantages to this approach.

    The main advantage is that it gives me an additional 5 weeks of base building. Another advantage is that I think I'll have a better chance of a good PB at Edinburgh, mainly because it'll be less crowded.

    The main disadvantage is that I might not be in a fit state after VLM to do myself justice at Edinburgh. I think it would take a lot of discipline to not race at least part of VLM.

    Anyone got any advice (other than don't do them both)? Feel free to ask any questions if you need any further info about me!

  • Ziggy

    a lot depends on VLM. How quickly you run it on the day, and how quickly you will recover from running the full distance. You might intend to run it slow, but do you trust yourself? And after VLM, you then only have two scheduled weeks of full training before a traditional P&D 3 week taper. Will you be capable of all sessions?

    I think the 'textbook' advice would be carry on with basebuilding, defer VLM, and PB at Edinburgh. Unfortunately I don't do as I say - I ran two marathons in October a week apart ill and injured. Would I do it again? yesimage

  • Do I trust myself? Not really. Even in my training week to week I'm guilty of running too many of my miles too fast. It'll take a real effort not to go too fast at VLM.

    Having said that my PB is only 3'59 and I'd like to think I'm now capable of something closer to 3'15. So that gives me the potential of getting a PB without going all out. I also like the thought of being able to relax and enjoy the experience of a VLM.

    I think your 'textbook' advice is the most sensible, unfortunately I doubt I'll do that.

    Is there a deadline for deferring?

    Two marathons in a week? That makes my 5 weeks seem quite sensible. What were you thinking? How did you get on in the second one?


  • I was going for sub 3, and fell apart in the first one after about 10 miles - just not enough energy after recovering from illness. I knew it wasn't on but battled on and finished in 3'04" feeling gutted. I had already booked Abingdon the week after as I thought I wouldn't be up the first one (and should have pulled out!). Finished that in 2'59. That was my 2nd and 3rd marathons - not textbook! I'm planning a more sensible approach next time.

    I believe you can defer VLM very late on so could leave that open, and see if you can get those slower runs nailed! It would certainly be one of the noiser, colourful long runs

  • Wow. That's impressive, mental, but impressive. Did you do anything to try and aid your recovery between the two?

    I think I'm going to continue as I outlined in my earlier post but I'll keep reassessing how I feel and defer if it starts to seem like too much. I've not booked travel or accomodation for the VLM yet so I wouldn't be too much out of pocket.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Anyone got an online link to the P&D 12 wk plans? Ideally the 55-75 plan.

  • Hi P&Ders, sorry I haven't dropped in for a long time...frustratingly haven't been able to run. Good to see the thread still going strong!

    I've been resting for the last few weeks as my plantar fasciitis is playing up and seems to be getting worse. I'm going to have a go at starting the 55M plan next week anyway but my sub 3 goal may have to be adjusted. 

    Anyone know if VLM would let me defer for a year if it comes to it? I got in on GFA.


  • Al runs - I'm not sure if you can defer a GFA place, I think you would need to ask them.  Hope the foot improves soon.

    Keir - sorry can't help with a linky thing.

    Another 40 mile week chalked image up despite the snow and ice.  Trying to get ready to start the plan next week. Although shouldn't be so bad as I'm already doing the start mileage.


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