P + D training for VLM 2013



  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    I know what you are saying Tenjiso. I frequently run 5m as my standard run. So for my first marathon I extended all 20m LSRs to 21m and in my head I only needed to complete my usual loop to run the distance.

    Also, for my last 2 marathons I have run a 26m LSR 6 weeks before hand in training - at PMP + 60sec. I found the endurance benefits good, but the mental boost was fantastic. However the recovery time compared to a 20miler does affect training. Likewise the risks of injury are certainly greater the longer you go (It is vital you make sure you fuel and hydrate really well in these sessions).

    If you are an experienced runner and know yourself well, go for it. If you have a history of injury or feel really tired from the training up to that point, don't do it.

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Hi Tenjiso the sub-55 plan has one 22m long run, and a quick scan of the sub 75shows its got a 22m plus a 24m long run.

    From memory the last plan I used had 2x 18m, 2x 20m and 1x 20m long run, but the P&D sub-55 has 4x 18m, 2x 20m, 1x 21m and 1x 22m.  This seems about right for me as I think my previous plan was a bit too light with the long sessions.

    I do agree with you that 20 miles doesn't seem long enough, I'm tempted to do 23m for that last long run as it means that race day is just an extra 5k (ish). And running 5k is easy (or thats what I'll have to remind myself on the day image)

  • stutyr it sounds like you are using an older version of P&D. Second Edition plans max out at 20 miles for the sub-55 plan, and 22 for the 55-70 plan

  • I wonder why they changed it in the new edition?

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Weird, I downloaded the Kindle version a couple of months ago,so assumed it was the latest version.  It also says second edition on the cover page.  

    Is this why I had a 12m long run at the end of the first week, whilst others were upping their pace to MP for their last few miles?

    I guess I'll stick to the version I got, just a bit surprised its not the latest image

  • Thats even wierder ... I also have the Kindle version which says second edition. On mine the 70 - 85m plan has one 24 miler which is run on a recovery week image I'd be surprised if they are different - maybe we interpreted them differently
  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    The book I have (second edition) sub-55 has 2 x 18m and 3 x 20m which is about what I would expect. It seems strange that we all have different versions though! As for going over 20 miles, I think it's useful psychologically if you have never done a marathon before but not so much if you already know you can run 26 miles. According to some schools of thought, isn't it all meant to be about time on your feet rather than mileage anyway? 

  • Starting this tonight by doing Friday's 9 mile arobic run. Have to sub Friday and Monday this week. If I am targetting 6 50 MP how fats should I do general? I am figuring about 7 30 pace.
  • Go Caz

    You have the same plan as me - we are on the same page!

    One of the reasons I played about with the schedule and LR length was so that I had enough time on my feet. For me, using P&D's progressive runs of 20% - 10% MP, a 20 miler was signigicantly less time on feet than race time.  Some weekends I simply ran slow, and others I ran 20miles in line with the P&D approach.

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Sorry Guys, my fault - I was looking at the Sub-75 plan rather than the sub-55 plan image

    But I agree with Go Caz I find it better to think of the 20milers as simulating the time spent on your feet rather than the distance, which also has the added benefit of stopping me trying to run too fast at the start.

    I'll be making at least on of the 20 milers a 22 mile run, but this is due to there being a very nice 22 mile route that I'm dying to run again

  • Surrey

    7'30" sounds like its too fast according to Messrs P&D for General Aerobic conditioning runs. The suggestion is 15% to 25% of MP. If that is your MP now then you are looking at  7'51"  to 8'32" pace. They also give Heart rate ranges which is better if you are some way off you MP at present

  • So it is start day for me today, little tweak to the schedule already and switch the rest day and go for run No. 1 today.  8 miles tonight with 4 at HM pace.  As half of the 4 will be up long steady inclines will be using a mix of effort and pace for the HM.

  • LR Yes, I added a few miles here and there to get the 5 longest runs to total 100+ miles. Two of them were 22 miles, I ran these at a slow, even pace and also ran them unfuelled (apart from water). The theory behind this is purely about time on feet and teaching your body/mind to carry on. As a very, very rough guide it is believed  that 22 unfueled miles indicates your marathon time.

    Just checking back, I ran,

    1 x 23 (last 3 at Mara Pace), 2 x 22 (both unfueled) and 3 x 20 (with varying amounts of mara pace sections)

  • 5 lsr to equal 100m is a guide. 5 x 20 is another. I guess there isnt much between them but these seem to be rules generally agreed on by the more experienced endurance runners. I also run all but the last unfuelled, with the last being a simulation of my race day fuel strategy. I did a 23, 22.5 and 2 x 20 and a 19 last time out and believe it was what made the difference between a controlled run at London and a hold on for grim death in Chester.

    JF50  Hope the run went well!

  • just popping by to wish good luck all on day 1 of the 18 wk cycle for VLM! 

    a lovely LT run the start! image

  • Strides for me,  I got the first edition. Enjoy those tempo runs you lot !!image

    I too will do at least 5 x 20-22 milers, may be a 23 which I haven't tried before image 

    Anyone found any 20 mile races ? I shall do The Gloucester 20 on 17th March ..although I wont do it all at race pace of course .

  • I'm down for the Bramley 20 on 17th Feb (near Reading)

    8m + strides for me tomorrow (I'm on week 2 so that first LT run is a distant memory)

  • I'm doing the Spitfire 20 on March 3rd - at the Dunsfold Aerodrome where they film Top Gear......
  • Appreciating the input on longest runs.  I'm booked for the Oakley 20 on 24th March (3 weeks out from my marathon).  I'm also doing the Milton Keynes 18m training run the week before that.  Both should be run at LSR pace according to the schedules, but I'm tempted to run some of the 20 miler at MP.

    Week two -  8m with Strides later today.


  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    I've got the Bramley 20 on 17 Feb and the Essex 20 on 3 March, both of which I'll be running the second half at "MP" (or, rather, 85%ish of max).

    Back off the bench now - I've had to drop plans for Hamburg on 21 Apr - I'll now be doing Halstead 12 May, so a few more weeks of pure base for me. 

  • First run of plan last night, 8 miles with 4 at HM pace, quite tough keeping the level up without a few hundred other runners there, would be so easy to drop back to a general pace.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    I'm not doing a 20 race tis time, but for something different I am thinking of doing the Moonlight challenge - a 33m nighttime run at the end of Feb. It will be the first time I have run over 27miles, but I reckon if I take it nice and easy it should be fun and beneficial. 

  • Thanks Also,

    I have a heart rate monitor but it is pretty uselless. Awkwar to wear, either too tight or too loose ples readings are either crazy high or crazy low. Plus apparantly I only burn 80 caleries to run 8 miles.
  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    First run from the schedule done, 8 miles with at 4 tempo. Tiring but okay even though I wasn't feeling too good as I seem to be coming down with some kind of lurgy. image Damn! But better now than later...

    I am booked to do the Cranleigh 20-miler near Guildford. It's meant to be a good one and is very reasonably priced. I have never done a 20-mile race before so I am not sure what the best way to pace it is. As it's relatively close to VLM (24 March) I would guess that conservative is best.


  • First run done. All went very well, 4 miles at 6:16 pace. No way I could keep that up for 13.1 miles, but at no stage did I feel flat out, although I was working harder with each passing km ( I record my distances in km and not miles). I had originally planned/hoped to run 5 miles at pace, but I soon changed my mind once going. I don't like running quickly.

  • 8m GA + Speed this evening.  I ran the first five miles at GA pace, then 2m of Strides/Recovery and finished with the last mile at GA pace.  I didn't bother with heart rate monitoring on this occasion.

    I did this on the treadmill, so my striders are not textbook I'm afraid - but close enough I hope.  The recovery intervals were 0.1m @ 5.5mph (approx 10:55 pace for just over a minute).  I input 9mph (6:40 pace) as the flat-out speed and let the treadmill pickup to that speed over about 0.3m, then counted 30 left foot strikes in 20 seconds at top speed before inputing 5.5mph for gradual speed reduction.  Not perfect (if my understanding of striders is correct), but hopefully it will do the job.

    My first couple of strides were maxed at 7mph and 8mph respectively, the remaining 8 were 9mph.  The reason being that I have picked up a groin strain on more than one occasion in the past.  A disadvantage of the treadmill is that it does not stop instantly when you feel a "twang" image - hence my caution!

    I'm not sure how fast I should be doing the strides, but for comparison, my VO2max/5K max pace is calculated as 7.6mph (7:51 pace).  So my strider pace was faster, but I felt comfortable and could have done more than ten.  

    Does anybody else simulate these sessions on a treadmill? (probably not image)

    Feel free to comment whether this was a reasonable interpretation.  Apologies if it makes absolutely no sense, but I enjoyed the session in any case.

  • Yes Caz those 20 mile races should be done with only 12-14 marathon pace , especially THAT close to target marathon.

    Great that there seems to be quite a few 20 mile races around.

    8 miles with some strides today in 75 mins, was wishing it was LSR day as weather perfect , unlike tomorrows forecast image and mid week medium long run.

    Ten I dont think there are any hard and fast rules about the strides sessions I warm up for a mile  then just throw some in every mile or so, all I do know is its best not to sprint them as such just controlled/hardish running concentrating on form its not a VO2 max session.

    Well done those who had to wake the legs up with a tempo tun today, think I would have struggled with that after yesterdays works Christmas party image

  • First session for me done as well.

    LT run 9 miles with 4 @ 1/2m pace, wasn't sure how I would manage because I'm working 12 hour shifts this week and I'm pretty tired.

    I decided to just go out and give it a go and it wasn't too bad actually. I was aiming for 6.30 pace but went slightly quicker. My heart rate was between 83-88% for the 4 miles so I think I was about right.

    I think I'm going to switch Wed and Thurs runs round and do a recovery run tomorrow.

    Well done everyone else that's started today, only 14 weeks and we'll be tapering!
  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    Wow, I could only dream of doing a 6.30 pace. But then if your nickname is accurate, you are 20 years younger!

  • Yeah I was born in 1981!

    If I'm still running marathons at 51 ill be delighted!
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