P + D training for VLM 2013



  • NN even with my age impaired mental faculties I think I will be able to shift the programme, so I think if memory serves me Monday is something like 9 miles with 4 at tempo

  • Ah so my Tuesday is your Monday ?

    Lets hope we all turn up on the right day to run our marathons image

    Mind you a club mate of mine booked herself and the family a holiday to coincide with her Geneva marathon...she turned up a week late...thats true !!

  • Must check my hotel bookingimage

  • Did my 8mi run with 4mi @ half MP last night. Actually I did 9mi as I crossed the wrong bridge which made the journey home a bit longer, but i just added a 1mi jog to the end. I'm in week3 of the 18w55mi plan, so Saturday is a 4mi rec run and Sunday is 14mi "long" run.

    I've been concerned recently about whether my estimated paces are accurate enough for training (too fast and I risk burnout or injury, too slow and i'm not optimising the training gains) so I'm thinking of doing a flat parkrun tomorrow morning as part of the 4mi run. I know it's supposed to be a recovery run, but I doubt one 5k race is going to ruin me for the 14miler on Sunday, and otherwise i've been feeling pretty good. I think it would do my confidence good to get a benchmark 5k time that I can extrapolate my half mara and marathon training paces from. notwithstanding the fact that a 5k to marathon extrapolation may not be wholly accurate, it'll be better than my "pick a number" technique so far.

  • AG the best way is to train with a hear rate monitor, if you dont use one its better to err on the side of caution with the long runs and run them slower than you think you should

    Have you done a 10k or half marathon in the last few months ?

  • JF50 - ah, that would explain it as I have recovery 5 tomorrow.  Rightly or wrongly if I move the LSR to Saturday I just do the recovery on Sunday instead.  That way I don't run Tues/Wed/Thurs/Fri and Sat which is usually what would happen otherwise.

    NN - did you get up then?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    AG - 5k useful, but the closer the distance to the full marathon the more valuable. Ideally you'd go off a past marathon, or failing that your most recent half. If it's your first marathon best to err on the side of caution.

    Still, saying that a 5k race is a good workout - I might be doing a few 5k park runs along the way.

  • 11 miles MLR today in 1.26, I have to do my long run tomorrow because I'm working on Sunday, ill be glad when this week is over, been really busy at work so I'm feeling a bit run down now.

    AG - be careful on the parkrun, I know I'd need a couple of days off if I raced a 5k, even though its a short distance it'll still tire you out if you hit it too hard.
  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭

    imageSome good training going on folk keep it up, intresting which is your Start days mine has always been a Sunday start the week with a long runimage.

    Tomorrows 10 mile run including my hill will give me just over 83 miles for the week image and still buildingimage 20 miles starts next weeks training, first 20 of VLM 2013image  

  • Saturday is the new sunday in my book, most LSRs through to mid march are on Saturdays due to 6 nations commitments and other things starting tommorow with a 16-17 lsr first light (or earlier). My schedule looks nothong like the book but I have it on a spreadsheet and play away between the 55 and the 55-75.

  • Yep some great training going on folks - it'll all pay off come the spring!

    11M ML completed today in a comfortable 1:23 so feeling good @ the mo - and a day of complete rest for me tomorrow (before Sunday's 18M long run) as I did the scheduled 5M recovery run on Monday

    Have a good day tomorrow all

  • After spending half the day n here posting rubbish..and chatting about all sorts, at last a sensible post from me about training..

    Fiona..yes eventually i did get up...but please remember whist you are snuggled up in bed..I shall be working...or posting on here in my break..image

    Super paces Dave and Mark for your 11 mine a little slower

    MLR 11  miles before work ...9.35...9.30...9.24...9.14...9.07...9.05....9.01..8.54.
    8.51...8.45....8.35 1 hour 40 mins
    Starting 70-75% finishing 75-80% ...like the bible says

  • NN, you are me.  I swear we are the same runner!  

    Well, 2 days of no running for me.  Picked up sore throat and felt unbelievably exhausted so, went to bed last night at 6pm and stayed there until 1pm today (I have a brilliant husband!).  Seem to have shook the virus and hopefully, will be better tomorrow.  Have missed 5 mile recovery and 11 mile GA I think.  Will do recovery run tomorrow if ok.  I have a club race (around 10k) on Sunday, will see how I feel, no point doing 10k race if I am not up to it.  Not sure I will be up to a long run though.

    Great running everyone and you lot are nuts. 

  • Hello lovely people, longtime lurker here who embarked on the 18 week Up to 55mpw plan last week. Probably aiming at MK marathon, possibly just trying to structure my running after a year of just pounding out miles.

    Anyway this really is a great thread, lots of cracking advice. Week one kind of fell apart for me under a heavy cold after the first days run, 8m with 4 at LT. After a week off i've been back with a topsy turvey version of week 2.  4  easy on Weds as it was my first run back, 10 GA yesterday and 8 with 10x100 strides today. Well I actually only managed 8x100 as I was blowing a little, probably because on the plan these two were not meant to be back-to-back. Having a rest tomorrow and then the scary prospect of 13 with 8 at mara pace on Sunday. 

    I'm not running with my HRM as the figures just seemed off the charts high. My perceived efforts for easy runs were still rating super high on my HRM even though they were super slow. And they felt easy. In a month or so I may try again to see if their is a change with my fitness but at the moment i'm using Jack Daniels formula to work out the differing paces for runs. They seem pretty accurate so far. Is anyone else using this instead of HR?

    Thanks again for all the advice of taken from all of you guys and girls!



  • Hi Padder

    This is the first time I have used my hrm to train for a marathon, The last time trained by pace but wearing it as an experiment...my lsrs back then were averaging 80- 83 % (WHICH I AM TOLD IS TOO HIGH THEREFORE TOO FAST ) this time after several months of strict low heart rate training  I am running the same pace  but with hr of 70-75 % which apparently is the correct hr for long runs, anything too fast will result in burnout and you wont get the most out of subsequent sessions..(I suppose you will now tell me you run a sub 3 marathon ..in which case I will shut up.)

    HeOw...get well soon...dont race..there is no point if you are unwell you will under perform and be dispointed..and make yourslef too ill to train..

  • Night Nurse wrote (see)

    (I suppose you will now tell me you run a sub 3 marathon ..in which case I will shut up.)


    I wish image I'm a marathon noob. I've only been running 15 months, purely for fun but last year I managed to crack off close to 2000 miles to fuel my new addiction. So I was getting out there a bit. Towards the back end of the year I started changing paces, doing some races etc and using the HRM but even in my LSRs I seemed to be averaging 85% or higher. And thats at about two and a half to three mins per mile slower than my 5 mile race pace. I still have a fair bit of weight to lose, which I presumed may be a factor,  and am 40 but it was frustrating/paranoia inducing to look at the HRM and think I either needed to walk or my heart was going to explode! image So i've taken it off to stop me looking at it all the time!

  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭
    Padders: I am training for VLM so am a few weeks ahead of you, but had exactly the same experience. Did the first run on the schedule, 8m with 4@tempo and was then ill and unable to run for a week. I had a relapse last weekend too but hopefully am now back on track, though I think it has resulted in me taking a more flexible view of the schedule (!) Did 11.75 MLR yesterday (because that is the distance home from work). How does the Jack Daniels formula work? I don't use HR but go by pace and sometimes perceived effort.
  • Go Caz wrote (see)
     How does the Jack Daniels formula work? 

    It's just a running calculator. You put in a race result it churns out pace range for easy runs, and specific pace for marathon, threshold, intervals etc. I've tried a few in the past but the Jack Daniels one seemed to come up with some realistic figures given on the perceived efforts when I double checked them with previous runs. 

    It just seemed a good guideline until I get things sorted with the HRM.

  • Padders - I'm going to make an assumption here..... if you base your heart rate training ranges on the common formula (e.g. 220-age), then it wouldn't surprise me if you find your figures "off the chart", because that method is garbage for most people.  I don't understand why they keep trotting out that advice when it is widely discredited.  Only by discovering your own maximum heart rate (and your resting heart rate) will the ranges make any real sense to you.

    Jack Daniels is a good set of charts.  I used it to help establish my faster paces (e.g. 15k pace) based on 10k race time, and my slower LSR paces based on Half Marathon race time.  He says to go with your highest VDOT for all paces, but I found the long run paces (and MP) a bit too aggressive based on my 10k race time.

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    Welcome Padders, I'm not into the 85%, 75% of HR stuff as when you train you adapt and become fitter so your HR drops if you run on feel and your feeling good you run fast if your tired you run slower but we also have a brain which we can over rule to some extent and push the pace even when we feel tired. So in the last six miles when your feeling tired, because in training when you have felt tierd and pushed on irrespective of HR you know you can on the day, I don't know why so many peeps get hung up about HR so much as it can change due to so many things for example the excitement of race day can put it up 10 to 15 bpm, having a coffee can put it up 10 bpm.

    Go Caz sorry to hear you have been unwell, your HR will be a bit higher for a few days until you get back into it.

    NN hope you had a quite night.

    Most of my pace targets come from a Lactate Test where running on a treadmill over a period of time with the speed increasing I had blood samples taken. This gave me my pace for different runs as I had been training for a number of years I had written down what I though where the correct pace for each type of session and the only one that was a bit out was my interval sessions and only then because I don't normally do 100 and 200m sessions.

    Well I've got my hill to run 4 miles up 4 miles down and 2 miles undulating.
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Hello Padders. I have a HRM but never use it. Maybe I should dig it out and see where I am - thing is I don't know my resting hear rate or 100% or whatever you need to know. These days I tend to just go off feel. Man,

    Just going to pop out for a 5 mi. Knackered this morning, not enough sleep.

    NP - think I heard your bit on marathon talk whilst catching up on last few episodes - was it you out there running intervals on xmas day? If so, impressive stuff. Also impressive is your swimming. I think after this marathon I might get back into swimming a bit- be good to do something a bit different.

    Hope it's not too icy out there for tomorrow's 18miler.

    Off to see The Hoff in Peter Pan in Manchester tonight.

  • Welcome Padders.  Interesting chat about how we all calculate paces, feel, HRM and from NP the result of a very accurate set of tests, where and how did you get those done NP?

    Also interesting that there is such a variance on the running week and when it starts.  I think you need to be flexible on the programmes unless you can take 18 weeks off work. As 10 mentioned yesterday the upto 55 plan is a 5 day week schedule so gives a bit more flexibility. 

    So today will be Sundayimage for me with my long run, 15 miles. I am going to see my girls and grandkids tomorrow, an advantage of age your kids occasionally cook the dinnerimage

  • Well glad to see i'm not alone on the no HRM front. 

    Tenjiso - I didn't use 220-age, I spent a week taking my resting rate and did some long, flat-out, hill repeats to get my max. Which turned out to be 190. 220-40 is certainly not 190. You could be right about Jack Daniels on the mara pace efforts. I've only done 1 half mara, back in June which, was a poorly paced (left alot in the tank) 1:46. This was 8:08 per mile which based on my fastest time of the year, a 5 miler, is exactly what my mara pace should be according to JD. Entering my half mara time on JD it works out at a 8:27 mara pace. I can't work wether half a years progression would make that (8:08) a reasonable pace now or wether that is a tad ambitious. Tomorrow's mara pace run might answer that one.

    NP- That is impressive that the BT results pretty much gave you the paces you already were doing. Knowing yourself by feel has to be the key factor in all this?

  • I've just completed week five, which was the week I had been really dreading (especially today! image).

    Today's run was 16m with the last 10m at marathon pace. I set-out before 8:00am, just as it started snowing heavily! Over the first few miles the snow turned to sleet, then rain and eventually stopped. The remainder of my run was in the cold and wind. Most of the run was comfortable, except mile 15, which was up a long incline and into a cold, relentless, fierce headwind. Thank goodness I was wearing a headband, because it would have been nasty without my forehead being covered.

    For fuelling, I took half a zipvit gel at eight miles, and slowly consumed the remainder up to around 13m. I drank 340ml of water in total.

    For a four-hour marathon, my marathon pace is 9:09, but I wanted to get nearer to 9:00 for this run (though I doubted that I would). My mile splits for the run were:

    8:51/9:02/9:00/9:06/8:54/8:42/8:56/9:02/9:01/8:52 (average 8:57 image)

    I am surprised and delighted with that! Hitting 9:01 during that fifteenth mile wasn't easy and I felt like celebrating there and then! image My heart rate range for MP miles is 153-168bpm. It peaked at 167bpm, and the averages per MP mile were:


    IMHO - not too shabby!

    This is my highest mileage week ever, and I'm feeling really happy about progress so far. Today's run in particular has boosted my confidence that I can handle the training in the plan. However, that doesn't mean I'm not still scared about doing 18m with 14m @ MP later in the schedule, among other things. In the meantime, bring on the recovery week! 

  • Did the 18 miler today instead of tomorrow as tomorrow is my anniversary.  Was hard after last night's 11 mile MLR.

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭

    JF50 I met a guy who is just finishing a PHD at Jordonstown uni which is only 4 miles from where I live, we have run together most weekends since as part of his PHD he had to test a number of people of diffrent ages, sex and ability. Think I was in the oldman cat lol. I also had a number of other things done with all sorts of monitors strapped to me while I ran theses measured impact forces and other stuff. Hope you had a good 15 mile runimage.

    Ten fantastic running well done in poor weather 16 miles into the bank with some great splits at MPimage.

    Surry runner well done on the 18 miles and 29 over two days great running but if it was easy everyone would do it.

    Ran my hill 4 miles up 4 miles down and 2miles undulating so just over 10 miles in the bank. Off to se Le Mis tonight if we can get in and out of Belfast okimage 20 off road tomorrow image....


  • Well done Ten. IMHO you running that many miles at quicker than PMP whilst keeping your HR to the lower end of your range suggests your well on course to achieve sub 4hr.



  • Afternoon..

    The heart rate thing is I guess a personal choice and a new way of training for me it does take an awful lot of time and patience to train at low heart rate..have a look at the Hadding thread !! I did a proper max test till I nearly vomited and it proved the general calculations are indeed way out. I just wanted a different way to hopefully improve my times after years on a plateaux and getting older itd not easy to find new ways to improve.. time (or rather marathon time ) will tell.But as NP rightly says race day is slighly different as the HR is going to be up but by then the work is done..

    Padders what is your target time for the marathon ?

    Ten fabulous long run mate..brilliantly paced and great HR stats well done indeed hard core in those conditions its good to see you get off that treadmill. Although having said that I did y 5 recovery on the dread mill today and hated every fricking step !!! how the hell do you do those 10 milers ????

    Jf 50 have fun with the grandkids..they bring such fun...and when they tire us out we can hand them back image As for flexibilty with the plan , I agree you have to change things around sometimes...and I think we are all experienced enough to know how and where and not to run 2 x 20 milers back to back or a tempo run followed by a speed session...easy /hard/ is the general rule if knackered treat your self to an extra rest day.


    NP  enjoy Le Mis do you actually live/work in Belfast ? have fun in the mud tomorrow !!

    Just getting ready fo another shift..only 2 nights this week , used up a bit of leave so I can get 18-19 done tomorrow when I get up , then go straight back to bed again rather then go back to work !!

    SR well done on getting that 18 done after yesterdays 11..i just did the required 5 recovery I dont think I could have done 18 the day after an 11..good effort you.And happy anniversary ..how many years ?

  • image long post !!

  • SR - 18m after an 11m MLR the previous night image Great work getting that done.  You'll probably sleep through your anniversary image

    Thanks NP/Ziggy/NN

    I run treadmill runs with an mp3 player and listen to podcasts so I can zone-out.  I've had a couple of occasions when I forgot to charge the battery, though, which made the longer runs significantly more tortuous.

    Good luck with the long runs tomorrow.  I haven't checked recently, but the weather forecast wasn't too promising.  

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