P + D training for VLM 2013

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  • 15West wrote (see)

    Starting to feel knackered now. Remember this from last time followed schedule, feeling knackered all the time. 

    Yesterday's 11m MLR left me feeling more wiped-out than any of the previous runs in the schedule, including the 16m MPR!  I was assuming that it was because of my head cold, but perhaps it is also the effect of accumulated training.

    It's a rest day today, and I feel like I need it.  I still have the head cold, but it doesn't seem any worse.  Hopefully a good 18m run over the weekend will flush the lurgy out of my system.

     

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    NP - one thing I'd add to the handy Garmin configuration is to include the Lap field on the screen.  I used this method described on a recent Half-Marathon in Cardiff and there were a few missing/hidden mile markers.  The theory is that if you miss a mile marker, you just press the lap button twice but I found that I lost track of when I'd last pressed the lap button (e.g. When passing Mile 10, I couldn't remember if it was the mile 8 or 9 marker that I'd last seen, so wasn't sure if I had to press the button once or twice).  I'm hoping that by adding the Lap option that this will overcome it - as the number of Laps should equal the number of miles on the marker, but I haven't been able to test this in race conditions yet. 

    I completed the 11m Med-Long Run this morning.  It felt really good, I ended up running at just over marathon pace at one point in the middle of it until I realised and slowed my self down!

    I'm looking forward to the 18m long run this week-end, I've dug out my camelbak thats been gathering dust (and some strange white stuff inside the bladder image) for almost two years, since my last marathon training schedule.  I've also bought some jelly babies to test as race fuel instead of gels.  Its probably a bit OTT for an 18-miler, but I'd rather try things out now rather than later in the schedule.

  • given that the P&D schedules don't include any half marathon races in the prep (at least my 18week55mpw plan doesn't) how confident are you guys that you're going to be hitting a sustainable pace in the marathon?

    In the plan i'm following there are 3 options for 10k races to do some race tuning and (i guess) sharpen the speed up a bit, but no longer race. The extrapolation of paces from 10k to marathon is looser than that from half to marathon, so i'm slightly concerned that i'll be toeing the start line in Manchester with little more than faith that I can hold up my marathon pace over the distance.

    It's not so much a problem if your goal is to get round, or if you're not realyl targetting a PB, but if you're aiming to run a pace that you've not managed before the marathon, how confident are you that you can do it?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Agent Ginger - what time you aiming for? I did Manchester last year and stuck with the 3.15 pacer and it made keep an even pace a lot easier - just had to keep with him. They have various pacers so worth checking that out. Also if you are near Manchester they have a few training runs organised that might be worthwhile, I did one of 20 milers with them and it was good to run in a group.

  • I'd like to go under 4 hours. My concern isn't that I won't know what pace to keep on the day as I know they have pacers at Manchester, rather that I don't know how realistic a 4 hour goal is. mcmillan calculator extrapolates my 5k time to a 3:57 marathon time, but 5k to 42k is quite the extrapolation. i'd be more comfortable if I knew i could run a half in say 1:45 or thereabouts, but the plan doesn't really allow for racing a half before my marathon race.

    just curious about how others were judging their feasibility of a target time, without that comfort of a half to help gauge what shape they were in.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Also - I am unsure about what to do about tune up races. I have signed up for wilmslow half on 24th march but maybe that's too close to go all out and race it - so may just run it at MP. There are a few half marathon options earlier than that, but not sure. I may do a few 5k park runs, and may sign up for a 10k sometime.

    When training for Chester last autumn I followed the same schedule I am following now, the 18wk 55-70 one; and didn't run any half marathons. I was disciplined with my long with with MP miles in though, and I think that really helped. Saying that...this year I am going for a 2.55, and running my MP miles at this pace the other day was pretty tough!

  • i guess where the P&D lacks in half marathons to race in prep, it does contain a few long runs with sections at marathon pace, so that is arguably just as helpful in judging whether the pace is going to be sustainable on race day. e.g. i notice this weekend i have 16miles with 10 @ MP, then a month later a 16miler with 12@ MP, then an 18miler with 14@ MP, plus a fair number of half mara pace threshold runs, which i guess gives some degree of confidence. if i can smack out a parkrun once a month and get the 5k PB down some more, then do 2 or 3 10ks in the final 6 weeks, as per the P&D plan, then that should tell me whether my mara target is realistic, or i need to slow it down a bit.

  • NP: yep, average lap time is the way to go. Worked a treat for me in October. Even if you miss a mile marker you can just hit lap in quick succession when you see the next one. The 3:30 pacers were going too fast again this year but I had learned my lesson and let them tear away, doing my own thing. I caught them somewhere near the end, which was an amazing feeling.

    literatin: crikey, that was one fast 12 miler image! What marathon time are you aiming for?

    NN and MarkF: nice progressive long runs image

    My 12 miler is scheduled for tomorrow. Dreading it - lots of slush and some refrozen snowy bits don't make for easy or fast running but I guess it'll be character building ... image

    I think it's quite normal to feel knackered by now. You have all increased mileage over a number of weeks and that's beginning to take its toll. Have faith - things will come together when you least expect it. There may be a few tough weeks when paces drop a bit and you feel exhausted and think Jeez, I'm never going to run xxx come race day but then there will be one of them "holy shit - where did that come from" runs and suddenly anything is possible.

    AgentGinger wrote (see)

     

    given that the P&D schedules don't include any half marathon races in the prep (at least my 18week55mpw plan doesn't) how confident are you guys that you're going to be hitting a sustainable pace in the marathon?

    In the plan i'm following there are 3 options for 10k races to do some race tuning and (i guess) sharpen the speed up a bit, but no longer race. The extrapolation of paces from 10k to marathon is looser than that from half to marathon, so i'm slightly concerned that i'll be toeing the start line in Manchester with little more than faith that I can hold up my marathon pace over the distance.

    It's not so much a problem if your goal is to get round, or if you're not realyl targetting a PB, but if you're aiming to run a pace that you've not managed before the marathon, how confident are you that you can do it?

    AG: The marathon paced runs in the schedule should reveal whether or not your envisaged race pace is sustainable. I find the first sessions usually very tough but as the weeks progress and you do more MP work you will "lock in" the pace and it will feel more and more natural. If it doesn't then it's the wrong pace. Alternatively find a half marathon race and do it instead of your long run for that week. The schedules are not written in stone - you should adapt them to your wants and needs in places and if you feel you need a decent half to decide on goal pace then find one and do it. If 13 miles is too short you could always tag on some warm up and cool down miles to still make it a long run.

  • xpost AG - I think you just answered your own question anyway image

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭

    Lots of good running going on, take the point of laps on the Garmin looks like most on here are close to the plan with a few running better image keep it up peeps.

    Out this morning for a steady 10 miles which I enjoyed on ice free footpathsimage

     

  • 15West wrote (see)

    Morning all.

    Did my mid week MLR of 12 mi yesterday. Cold it was. Come on Spring!

    5 easy ones today.

    Starting to feel knackered now. Remember this from last time followed schedule, feeling knackered all the time. Still, got to be good for you, right?


    I felt the exact same way last night when I was doing my recovery run.  I don't know if it was due to the cold weather or if it was the effect of Tuesday's strides but I was just absolutely knackered.

    Not really looking forward to tonight's 8m GA.

  • Might try the Garmin lap technique for VLM then. My only concern with that is remembering to hit the lap button, and not accidentally hitting the stop/start button! In previous marathons my technique has been:

    1. Pace myself for 26.5 miles (e.g. for 3hr marathon, target pace is 6:47 instead of 6:52)

    2. Also wear a paper pace band, which I check on each mile split.

    Think I'll try the lap technique in the Silverstone Half and see how it goes.

    Nice 6M recovery run for me this morning and actually the first obvious sign I've seen that my fitness is improving: I was able to go about 15 sec/mile faster while keeping HRR below 60%. I'd be very happy to see something similar happening around threshold or marathon pace...

  • NP - That's good advice about the Garmin settings but I've only got the cheap Garmin (Forerunner 110) and I don't think I can set it up like you suggest.

    I nearly got caught out in the way you mentioned whilst trying to do the Edinburgh Marathon in sub 4. I had just been making sure I had been going about 9.05 min mile pace (or so I thought) and it was only with a few miles to go that I realised that I had to step up the pace because my Garmin was miscalculating the distance  (it ended up saying I ran 26.36 miles).

    Luckily I had enough left to do a couple of quicker miles and just made it. However it was a drama I could have done without and I remember how tricky I found it trying to calculate how quick I had to go.

    Is it just me or do other people find mental arithmetic virtually impossible in the later stages of long runs? (is it due to low blood sugar?) 

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    So what are people planning for the tune up races scheduled for the day before a long run? There aren't many to choose from on a saturday (or friday) morning (unlike US I think). Last time round I just ran fast...or I think one time I ran a 5k park run.

    Also - does anyone bother with sports massages? I have had a few in the past and have felt like doing some good...but do feel like I'm wasting my money a bit also.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭
    ZiggyTheSpider wrote (see)
    Is it just me or do other people find mental arithmetic virtually impossible in the later stages of long runs? (is it due to low blood sugar?) 

    Yes - definately.

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    Ziggy and 15 West yep to the maths in the last few miles I also can't read a race band without my glasses lol it's an age thing been over 51 lol.
  • Chickadee I'm aiming for sub-3:15 for the marathon, though I might make a final decision about target time after I do the Tunbridge Wells half in four weeks and see how that goes...

    15West I have sports massages about once a month or so, but mainly because I have  problems with ridiculously stiff shoulders that leads to neck pain when I get really tense. Anyway, I do think it helps with the running too, but it's partly a discipline thing with stretching -- the masseur usually treats me to a massive lecture about exactly which muscles I've not been stretching enough (as he grinds his elbow painfully into my bottom). Last time I also got a demonstration of the difference between what I think counts as 'stretching' and what really counts. In any case, while it's helpful (and feels good afterwards), I don't think it's absolutely essential for my running, so it's a question of budget really.

    Everyone else... like everyone's been saying, looks like there's loads of good running going on and I'm finding this thread really motivating too, seeing how determined everyone else is! Surprisingly not actually feeling knackered... yet...

  • 15West - I try and have a massage every 4-6 weeks. It's never a pleasant experience, and I sometimes wonder if the woman enjoys inflicting pain just a little bit too much, but I always feel better in the days and weeks after it.

    This is the 1st time I've followed a structured training program and I don't think I'd have been able to follow it so closely if it wasn't for the advice and enthusiasm of the people on this thread (I also love the P&D excel spreadsheet that Chickadeee sent to me. It really makes recording your progress so easy)

    8m GA for me tonight. Felt better at the end of it than I did at the start.

  • 15West Have you tried a foam roller?

    Ive found my recovery from tough training sessions has improved a lot since buying one. My friend is a physio and he recommended a foam roller rather than getting regular sports massages.

    Obviously a sports massage is better but also more expensive.

    Ive found the last few days quite challenging, 9 mile LT run and a 14 mile run the day after tough. When ive trained for a marathon in the past ive never come close to this sort of mileage so im hoping itll all pay off in April.

    Im feeling quite tired at the moment but not overly tired so i think everything is still going according to plan.

    Still trying to decide whether to do a half at some point in the build up, or just stick with the schedule.

  • Evening..

    Nice easy 5 and a bit recovery run before work tonight.

    I am doing 1 x mile race and 1 x half before VLM to get a better idea of true fitness, and I would love a decent half time too, at my age it may be the last chance I get to PB.image

    Changing the schedule for the first time this weekend and running 16 with my club on Saturday, which will be near my marathon pace if last time is anything to go by.image.so no MLR tomorrow , just an easy 7-8 then nice a recovery on Sunday.

  • Evening NN



    Another good run.



    I did 8 miles this morning on treadmill. for some reason I really struggled to keep my HR down for ages despite running fairly slow. It finally settled in the last 3-4 miles at less than 70%.



    I too am feeling a little fatigued this week. I am also now reaching weekly mileages that I've never done before so hopefully I'll have enough energy to get through.



    Good running from everyone else. How is the snow situation with everyone? We've still got loads here and it snowed again last night. Thankfully forecast to mostly be gone by the weekend.
  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    15West by some massage oil and do your legs yourself also foam roller image that's what I do also cold baths image with a mug of tea, don't get out until you have drunk all the tea image



    Will be doing a few park runs, 1 half marathon and possibly a few 10k's.



    NN well done for getting out image



    After my 10 miles this morning and spending all afternoon in hospital I had a CBA and missed my 4 mile recovery run tonight, recovery day tomorrow swim and 6 miles image back to hospital in MArch image
  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭
    Has anyone read Steve Smythe's Marathon Talk on RW? This is his view on MP during a long run: "Your method of putting a fast 4 or 5 while tired towards the end of run is a good one. To do much more than that is very hard without the stimulus of a race. it can then take an awful lot out of you and then you are really struggling for a week or so and your training sessions in the following week suffer and ultimately you can lose more than you gain."

    To me, the amount of MP in long runs in P&D does seem a lot - more than I have seen in any other schedule. What does anyone else think? Is it really necessary/beneficial to do so much MP?
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭
    I have tried the cold bath thing. Never again.
  • 15West wrote (see)
    I have tried the cold bath thing. Never again.

    Ah, but did you have a mug of tea?

  • Go Caz, while admittedly I don't really know because it's my first marathon, plus I haven't had any MP runs yet in my schedule, SS was responding to a question about whether the original poster should try to do the whole of his LSR close to race pace. So P&D sort of end up in between what he said and what the question asked, and the negative tone of the response might have at least a little to do with the sheer craziness of attempting do all one's LSRs at race pace.. I have to say though I'm a bit more nervous about some of the longer LT runs later in the schedule: to me 7 miles at half-marathon pace sound a bit scarier than 12 miles at marathon pace.

    I think maybe the best thing to do is follow the schedule the first time and then if we do end up struggling to recover for a whole week, adapt the schedule the next time to make the MP section shorter.

  • You know you're hardcore when you can sit in a cold bath for more than about 30 secs (i cant by the way) image

    Biofreeze is the other good recovery product, massage into those tired muscles and then shivver for about 2 hours! image

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Go Caz wrote (see)


    To me, the amount of MP in long runs in P&D does seem a lot - more than I have seen in any other schedule. What does anyone else think? Is it really necessary/beneficial to do so much MP?


    I don't know. Only two mp long runs left in the schedule.

  • 5 easy recovery for me tonight and enough to decrankify the legs.

    I foam roll most days and find it really does make a difference. Still have the odd massage though. Cold baths tried and couldn't believe just how bad they are. Will give it a go with the tea next time though and see if that helps. Found biofreeze a weird sensation and not sure it did any good. Have been using 'the stick' since christmas and think thats helping.

    NP sorry to hear you have to go back to hospital in March. Hope you okay?

    15W as well as a half am aiming for 1 10K and a couple of park runs for tune up races.

     

     

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