P + D training for VLM 2013

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  • Welcome aboard Craig. Good running again by everyone. Avoided the LT threshold tonight, as have had to swap around this week. I kind of envy those that have got it over and done with!

    A very nice easy 6 miles for me tonight averaging 8.15 pace. Slowest I've been in ages and it felt great! Gearing up for the big LT tomorrow.

    Oh and I've got one coat of paint on the wall to cover the toddlers 'art work' from yesterday. One more coat to go and its bed time!

  • Ha ha Craig - I knew it would be a day or so and you would be here!  Welcome. (I "know" Craig). 

  • wait... why is "know" in inverted commas? It's not one of your innuendoes is it?

  • Welcome Craig, you're in good company on here, most people have similar goals to you.

     

  • Cheers Helen, day 2 of P&D did just over 11 on a medium/long run, 7:58 average, might be some time until I get used to the drop off in pace, how do others on here run there medium/long, I felt fresh today and wanted to push the pace, is that a wise thing to do??  

  • Hi Craig,

    probably not that wise but I think we all do it sometimes anyway because we just can't help ourselves.image

    Also, why not add your marathon goal to our shiny new updated list? (Updated cos I've just added my own totally arbitrary target time now I think I'm over my almost-injury)

     

    Feb 17 - Mennania - Wrexham half - Sub 1:24
    April 14 - Tenjiso, jr2408 - Brighton - Sub 4.00 
    April 21 - Keir - VLM - Sub 2.50 
    April 21 - 15West, No Pain -VLM - Sub 2.55 
    April 21 - Mennania, Mark 1981, Al runs, Surrey Runner, Chris J77 - VLM-Sub 3.00 
    April 21 - Stutyr, Literatin - VLM - Sub 3:15 
    April 21 - chick - Hamburg mara - Sub 3:25 
    April 21 - ZiggyThe Spider - VLM - Sub 3:30 (May 26 - Edinburgh - Sub 3:15)
    April 21 - Night Nurse - VLM - Sub 3.40
    April 21 - JF50 - VLM - Sub 3.45
    April 21 - Go Caz VLM Sub 3.50 
    April 21 - Fiona J - VLM - Sub 4:00 
    April 21 - Pottermiss - VLM - Sub 4.10 (well why not!)
    April 28 - Agent Ginger - Manchester Mara - Sub 03:57:06

  • Feb 17 - Mennania - Wrexham half - Sub 1:24
    April 14 - Tenjiso, jr2408 - Brighton - Sub 4.00 
    April 21 - Keir - VLM - Sub 2.50 
    April 21 - 15West, No Pain -VLM - Sub 2.55 
    April 21 - Mennania, Mark 1981, Al runs, Surrey Runner, Chris J77 - VLM-Sub 3.00 
    April 21 - Stutyr, Literatin - VLM - Sub 3:15 
    April 21 - chick - Hamburg mara - Sub 3:25 
    April 21 - ZiggyThe Spider - VLM - Sub 3:30 (May 26 - Edinburgh - Sub 3:15)
    April 21 - Night Nurse - VLM - Sub 3.40
    April 21 - JF50 - VLM - Sub 3.45
    April 21 - Go Caz VLM Sub 3.50 
    April 21 - Fiona J - VLM - Sub 4:00 
    April 21 - Pottermiss - VLM - Sub 4.10 (well why not!)

    April 28 - Agent Ginger - Manchester Mara - Sub 03:57:06

    April 28 - Craig - Sub 3

    April 28 - HeOw - Sub 3:45 

     

     
  • Craig. I'm aiming for 3.00 on the nose too, so should be around the same standard as you i guess. I'm often told off for training too fast, but it seems to suit me. I tend to do my MLR's as a progressive run. I have a mile or 2 warm up at say 7.45 pace, then push on to 7.30 pace for a few miles, then 7.10-7.20 pace and I generally find I'll then just ease into running the last few miles at just below sub 7.00 pace. I find the last few miles generally a bit tougher than steady, but I feel like I get benefit out of it. As its going to be my first marathon I want to know what Proposed Marathon pace feels like as much as possible I guess. I think more experienced runners would be comfortable running MLRs slower safe in the knowledge they can step it up when needed, but I haven't got that confidence to fall back on. I guess its whatever works for you (a cop out answer I know). Whats your other PBs by the way? and what paces have you trained at before?

  • I have added Craig and me! (he won't mind...)  Re pace, I think on the first few weeks of the training, it is natural to feel fresher and push the pace a bit.  I am noticing that as I am now upping the MLR and the LSR and the tempo is getting longer that I have no desire to push the pace on my easy runs but at the start (you will probably remember me moaning about running slow all the time on my FB status...) I was chomping at the bit.  

  • Chris, I used to run my MLR run like that (albeit it slower than you) - I used to get told off too.  I would start easy and then ramp up to near 10k pace final mile.  I can't be sure whether it helped or not but I definitely found the lack of decent aerobic base showed on me on my last marathon, I probably ran too close to threshold pace (i.e. steady) too much during my training for Chester. I trained very well for it but still struggled last few miles. Hence why I am now running slower than I have ever ran but I think it makes sense.  Like you say, we are all different and people tolerate different ways. 

  • Oh god, I couldnt face getting near 10k pace at then end. That would kill me off properly! Ha.

    I've noticed that I have really been taking it easy on the recovery runs though and have no desire to go at anything above very easy on these. I'm pretty sure that as the weeks pass I'll feel the fatigue and decrease the pace on the MLR's as well, but for now it seems to be happening naturally. I guess I'm guilty of carrying a bit of my half marathon training habit into marathon training. I'll be having a massive taper if i make it that far thats for sure!

  • I am looking back on my training for Chester now on Garmin Connect and can see all the mistakes I made in black and white.  I ran everything too fast.  I had perfect conditions at Chester and I suffered final few miles and I should have been flying if you look at my training.  I burned out. Won't do it again.  Chris, you have to find your own way - I have literally rammed down the throats of my running friends to slow down, some have listened, some haven't.  The ones who haven't tend to get injured once the start marathon training and don't slow.

  • Not had time to read back yet..will catch up tomorrow..

    14.4 miles done in 2.05  (8.40s) 

    7 on my own then 7.4 with club to get some mp miles done its the only way I can get some faster stuff done..
    9.36...9.27..9.20..8.56..9.01..8.42...8.34...8.23..8.23...8.17..8.17..8.54..8.03..7.56..3.50
    club run included some big hills !!!

  • What's happened to Tenjiso?

    Tonight I did a 13.6m MLR, avg pace was 7:45 and HR was 77% of max. I'm kind of looking forward to the LT session on Friday!!

  • Did the LT run today rather than the 14 miler as I got home late from work .

    7 22, 7 40, 7 40, 7 44, 7 52, 6 21, 6 25, 6 43, 6 17, 6 27, 6 25. Decided to do the fast miles at the end this time. The 6 43 mile was uphill.
  • I think I will be keeping these medium/long runs on the lower end of the intensity scale. Did 11 tonight around 7:58 and it felt exceptionally comfortable. Recovery 5 tomorrow again which I will be taking easy, looking through the schedule some of the marathon paced runs for me look fairly demanding, 18 mile with 10 at marathon pace (6:40) for me, I see these runs as key to my marathon so I will be wanting to give my all on these runs. Out of curiosity has anyone followed P&D with any success in their marathon.
  • Hello all, and welcome Craig. Are you on the 12mi plan and are running the Manchester marathon? I know Manchester has a few training runs you might be interested in - have a look on their website. Also I ran Manchester last year and followed one of the pacers to get a sub 3.15; made the pacing strategy a lot easier as didn't have to worry about splits, looking at garmin etc; just had to keep up with the pacer. Well worth it if you're going for a sub 3. Also - have you ran marathons before? What is your current PB? Any tune up races planned?

    5 easy miles for me today thank gawd. Legs are aching today. Also - I got a bit carried away with stuffing myself last night and feeling a bit over-fed this morning. Kept having sneaky little bowls of muesli; and this was after having a meal that involved a lot of rice....and it was all topped off with a muffin before bedtime. Blurgh.

  • I have been waking up in the middle of the night hungry, and cant get back to sleep till I have had some bread and jam, I always wake up starving in the mornings anyway, and cant function till I have had porridge, its finding the right balance really its nice being able to have several extra calories, but I do try and keep it healthy..(most of the time ).

    The scheule is quite specific about paces and training each system of the body, anyone who wants to run faster than suggested good luck,image,,me ? I love running slow !! 

  • Nice efforts from NN and Ziggy - welcome to Craig - It is counterintuiitive to runs slow in marthon training but it is the one thing that all plans have in common. You can stick a progressive run in occasionally and maybe throw a few in at PMP pace during your LSR - but if you are planning running a marathon at 6.47ish running at 7.15 is pointless re pmp training and too exerting for an LSR so becomes a non specific effort. 11 miles at 7.58 is bang on for an average LSR pace  (7.30-8.10mm is the range). But clearly everyone is differentimage and you have to be true to yourself.

    Eating like a Horse at present - havent weighed myself for a while but look and feel trimmer anyhows.

    heOw - I live just outside Wrexham - You ready for it?

    Stick your tune up races on the list guys, will be some good markers for discussion!

  • Feb 17 - Mennania - Wrexham half - Sub 1:24
    Mar 24 - 15West - Wilmslow half - Sub 1:27 (not sure whether to race or practice MP)
    April 14 - Tenjiso, jr2408 - Brighton - Sub 4.00 
    April 21 - Keir - VLM - Sub 2.50 
    April 21 - 15West, No Pain -VLM - Sub 2.55 
    April 21 - Mennania, Mark 1981, Al runs, Surrey Runner, Chris J77 - VLM-Sub 3.00 
    April 21 - Stutyr, Literatin - VLM - Sub 3:15 
    April 21 - chick - Hamburg mara - Sub 3:25 
    April 21 - ZiggyThe Spider - VLM - Sub 3:30 (May 26 - Edinburgh - Sub 3:15)
    April 21 - Night Nurse - VLM - Sub 3.40
    April 21 - JF50 - VLM - Sub 3.45
    April 21 - Go Caz VLM Sub 3.50 
    April 21 - Fiona J - VLM - Sub 4:00 
    April 21 - Pottermiss - VLM - Sub 4.10 (well why not!)

    April 28 - Agent Ginger - Manchester Mara - Sub 03:57:06

    April 28 - Craig - Sub 3

    April 28 - HeOw - Sub 3:45

  • What do people wear on their feet. I wear Brooks Adrenaline GTS (2e) trainers - but thinking of getting some lighter trainers for racing shorter distances....just not sure what?!?

  • Hi guys/girls.

    Just discovered this thread.

    Im currently following the 18 week / 55 mile plan for the manchester Marathon. Finding it quite heavy compared to what im used too. but so far managed every session, even with the snow image

    Manchester will be my 3rd Marathon, and my pb so far is 3:27

    Has anyone followed this plan religiously and had good results from it? I'm aiming for a sub 3:15.

    Im booked into a half marathon (stafford) 6 weeks before the manchester. should give me a good indication as to what ill be capable of in manchester.

    Ive just ordered the P&D book online, as i found the 18/55 plan online,

     

  • Morning all, ran my 10 mile LT this morning, 6 at the LT pace.  Definitely the toughest runs for me, think 20 milers are easier.  The faster 6 were at 7.43 average which is just about right for me but included one mile much too fast, one much slower because of icy roads and traffic, just couldn't get a rythm.  The final 3 miles I jogged back felt great helped by my smugness.

    15w it's Nike Triax for me on the roads, used them for years.  I use Nike Free on my treadmill and they are light.

    Enjoy the day all, and welcome Craig.

  • Re pace. For me it just seems like too much of a leap of faith to do the majority of miles in training at near 8 min pace and then expect to deliver 6.40 pace on the day. I certainly wouldn't advocate running constantly fast, but for me progressive sessions let me know that I know what near race pace is like (and achievable). Maybe it's a mental thing, and I need to have more faith in the training.



    As for shoes I have recently built up a few so I can alternate. Long runs are done in mizuno wave precision 13s. Not in love with them yet. Sessions are done in mizuno wave mushas. They are like slippers and hoped they would become my marathon shoe. But so far nothing can rival my love affair with the Adidas adizer adios. It's my go to shoe for anything from long runs to races to speed work. I think they will be my marathon shoe by the looks of it too.



    Bring on the shoe porn (what has my life come to?! ).
  • Hello Jedwards and welcome. I followed the 55-70 for the first time last summer for Chester in the autumn and got a PB by about 15 minutes and went sub3 - so I reckon plan worked pretty well for me. I did follow the plan very closely too - don't think I missed one session except had to swap some of the saturday tune ups with either a tempo run or a 5k park run. The key is to follow the plan - but if you feel a niggle and you're worried about potential issue it's best to miss some of the recovery runs and general aerobic ones, the key sessions are the long runs and faster paced sessions.

  • Welcome Jedwards - theres a lot to learn on this thread, and some of it even involves running!

    Hi Mark - forgot to answer your questions - Wrexham half - I am hoping to PB with a sub 1.24 (currently 1,24.48  - 2 weeks after vlm in chester) but am uncertain if I am in the shape to. On this race last year I delivered a (then) pb of 1.28.48 and I know I am better trained now than I was then - so i suppose A race is sub 1.24 and b race is better than last years race for same effort.  Lets see what tonights LT brings as a markerimage

    15 w - Current shoes are asics 1170 - previously 2160s. If you get the lighter shoes you know you will be racing Wilmslow. image

    Good effort today JF50.

  • Welcome also Jedwards, glad to have another Manchester racer on board!

    JF50 - I ran 6 miles on Monday at LT - my splits were average of around 7:35 so you and I are similarly paced.  

    Mennania - I do feel ready (as of today!) for Wrexham but ask me next Saturday and the answer will be NO!  I used to live near Ruabon, did a lot of my running around and up to Wrexham town centre a few years back.  

    Chris - If you are only running a few miles in the MLR then you will probably be fine - If you were telling us that you were running your LSR at race pace, then I think you know yourself, that would be a bad idea!  I was on the Chester thread last year and was told by some very very good runners that I was making an error by running near race pace but because my race pace was not "fast", I thought it would be ok, however, I wasn't!  But you are only throwing some more in on MLR so it is about trail and error and seeing what suits you.  Some people can do progressive runs like you, I know I could without injury but I am definitely wanting to try to stick to the ethos of the plan which is to keep every other run (bar tempo) easy paced because I have tried 2 marathons doing it with more race pace miles in and really, it didn't work.  However, you know your body best and like you say, a lot of it is mental. I do reckon you could trust just sticking to the long runs with race pace miles in and you would be fine! 

    15W - I wear Brooks Glycerin but I bought Adidas Adizero Tempo and now moved on to Adizero Feather but prefer the Tempo (not racing flats, I ain't fast enough!) for tempo runs and races as the Brooks are cart horses and I felt they were too heavy for me to do my faster paces in.  I would definitely go for a lighter trainer for your faster runs, they really do make a difference.  Adidas are leaders I find in light shoes, pretty unbeatable.  If they are good enough for Olympians... image

    NN - great run with club!

  • Re trainers, I am currently looking at the Nike Flyknit ad on this website which is all over it.  Hmm, I am a tad dubious about these knitted shoe and they are bloody expensive.  I need to replace mine soon and I have only had them since end of October.  How long do you all get out of yours?  I get around 400-450 miles tops.  Sometimes have to change them around 350 miles. 

  • Bogged down at work yesterday so I missed a lot of twatty Pilates on here image

    Well done HeOw getting that 11 miler in. Am in the same boat - LSR to do on Sunday with 10 @ MP  and dreading it image.

    15W: the biro on the wall just reminded me why I don't have kids image

    JF50: nice to see someone else run at stupid o'clock. My MLR was done at 4:20 am today (got up at 4 but needed 20 mins to wake up & get ready image).

    mark1981: great LT running - you are on the right track when they start to feel easier image


    Well dones to all chalking their MLRs off. Is it just me (12 week schedule) that has to do two of them this week (13 and 14 miles image? I don't have an LT run though - there's one next week.

    Lit: stormin MLR last night!! Deffo back on track!!
     

    Surrey Runner wrote (see)
    HeOw I slipped a few miles during the snow and felt guilty.  I feel guilty about taking the rest days.  Until I started my current contract two weeks ago I was doing a gym session on the rest days.  And bleeding nipples from running aren't too bad.  Doing 21 miles in compression tights without vasaline is just a world of embarrising pain.

    Ouch image 

    HeOw wrote (see)

    I am definitely one on my own, LT sessions are my favourites.  I have to reign myself in on them and stop myself doing them for longer! 

     

    I'm beginning to question your sanity, HeOw image. LT runs are the work of the divil image they suck! 

    HeOw wrote (see)

    Chris, I used to run my MLR run like that (albeit it slower than you) - I used to get told off too.  I would start easy and then ramp up to near 10k pace final mile.  

    10 k pace image image. The only time I ever to 10k pace is in a 10k race!  

    15West wrote (see)

    What do people wear on their feet. I wear Brooks Adrenaline GTS (2e) trainers - but thinking of getting some lighter trainers for racing shorter distances....just not sure what?!?

     

    Saucony Kinvaras for normal running and Fastwitches for speedier stuff. Very light, both of them although none are proper racing flats. My dodgy biomechanics wouldn't tolerate flats.  

    welcome Craig T and Jedward: P&D saw me getting from 3:54 to 3:38 to 3:29 and hopefully to 3:15 one fine day. I'm an old hag though, so potential for improvement is somewhat limited.

  • I used to do 3 milers at 10k pace all the time Chickadee!  Don't anymore though...  Kind of learned no need to as I ain't training for a 10k! image

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