P + D training for VLM 2013



  • Al, last week was my rest week so all I did was skip the Sat run and that was my taper. I think we are getting to the stage now where you don't wanna miss too many sessions so I wouldn't taper too much.

    What time are you aiming for at Silverstone? It's a race id love to do.

    Ten, that looks like a decent taper for Sun. What time r u going for?
  • Al forgot to say, I'd love to get somewhere around 2.55 but I'm starting to think maybe aim for about 2.58 so that gives me a little buffer for tiredness/garmin issues. I'll be delighted to scrape under 3 hrs so I'm going to be sensible on the day.

    This marathon feels like a step into the unknown because its the first time I've trained seriously.
  • mark1981 wrote (see)
    Ten, that looks like a decent taper for Sun. What time r u going for?

    I'm figuring 1:50 - 1:55, though I haven't found a course profile so I'm not sure what to expect.  If my nerve holds I'll set out to achieve 1:50 and see if I crash and burn.

  • I would have expected it to be pretty flat but potentially windy with it being on the racetrack?

    Good luck anyway image
  • HeOw..I would drop the recovery down to 4/5 if you are running today I have just done 4
    Ten yes its probably a bruise, I have done that before and loosening the laces should help, good luck with the intervals and have a decent taper for your half  have you done a half before what time is your PB ?
    AL  I too am doing a half next Sunday so dropping the LT run and swapping Wed 15mlr for 11 mlr and the rest all easy recovery..had hell of a mad week just gone..10 mile race, mp run, intervals 22 miler plus recovery runs and 3 night shifts !! so need to take it easy now..

    4 miles just done and usual monday morning weight chucking session image coffee and cake with mate now..bfn

  • Thanks NN.  I PB'd my last HM (last November) in 1:54:58.  The reason for my caution is because that was achieved on a flat course after low mileage tapering.  I did better than I had expected having struggled to break two hours up to that point.

  • Ten - maybe see you there then (!) I look like the guy to the left

  • If 1.54.58 is your pb on low mileage, I reckon you'll comfortably break 1.50.

    Don't underestimate how much fitter this p&d schedule gets you. I don't think you notice it when you are training on tired legs but you'll see the benefits in a race.

    Be positive, aim for 1.50!
  • Ten you will go well under that just don't go off too fast, start at controlled 9s and up the pace gradually, and so true what Mark says, looking back over my training, yesterdays 22 even though I felt like pooh and lolloping old woman , was quicker pace and at lower heart rate than the early 15-16 milers..image so even what we think may be a bad run, actually in the scheme of things isnt !!

  • I ran Silverstone in 2007, it is a mix of running on the track and the service roads round it, it is an old airfield and feels just like that at times. The tarmac on the track as I remember was so smooth and soft, very unlike normal road surface.  It is pretty flat but quite open so if it is windy you will feel it in places.  The day I ran it was freezing and we got a horizontal hailstorm in the first hour, like being sand blasted, think it was one of the last races my OH came to watch, apart from London marathons.  As usual on these things the slower runners often get a double dose, they did that day with another hailstorm.

  • Ten - I found the elevation profile by using the 'explore' function on Garmin Connect and checking out people's data from last year's race. The consensus is that it's not as flat as you might think and prone to being windy. Should be a nice smooth surface though.

    Mark - I'm aiming for sub1:25 so I'll pace the first half like that and see how I feel. Current PB is 1:26:10 (Sept 2012) but that course turned out to be short. So my official PB is 1:35 (Feb 2010). Would be disappointed not to improve on that!

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Ten, I go along with Mark - I reckon you'll easily break 1:50 based on your training so far.

    Lit, did you achieve the championship place in your first race!?!  Just checking back to  check who the other poster with the 3:15 target was (MarkF) and saw a post from you saying your first race was Sept 2011!?!  Your times were impressive when I thought you'd been racing for years - but thats phenomenal after such a  short time.

    MarkF, did you race on the weekend & how did you do? 

  • sounds like some good running (and racing) happened this weekend. well done to all of you who braved the elements and got out there.

    i had a very tentative 11 and a bit mile run home on Friday night (14 planned but i didn't want to push it too much after my enforced couple of rest days because of my lower leg pain last week). I felt sluggish but the run was steady, slow but steady.

    On Sunday i did 16mi with 4mi warmup then 12mi at 9:01 average (I don't have the exact splits to hand but the slowest was about 9:12 and the fastest 8:45 ish as I had to speed up/slow down to cross roads, etc.

    The marathon pace for 12miles felt pretty tough, not sure how i'll sustain that for 26.2 miles in 9 weeks time, but i guess there's still some fitness to be gained before then. I'm most pleased that i didn't have any leg pani or soreness during or after the run. Legs a little heavy perhaps but not uncomfortable, so although I covered just 32 miles last week, instead of the planned 45 I think it was the right decision, and hopefully i can return back to the plan this week.

    With 9 weeks to go until Manchester (pottermiss, i'm guessing you might also be running MCR rather than the VLM, given that you had a 16mi this weekend too) this week for me is:

    8mi GA, 8mi VO2, 5mi rec, rest, 8mi GA, 14mi MedLong, rest.

    I'm having to bring forward my 14mi run to Saturday because of family plans on Sunday, so i'll be taking it quite easy in all but the track session. I'm quite looking forward to the track, it'll be my first time on one image

  • Great racing this weekend and more PBs to add to the thread.

    Garmins are correct, we just dont run in a straight line. I use the following settings for my watch on race day originally posted by Paul the Builder;

    We probably all know someone who has got to the closing stages of a race, thinking they’ve used their Garmin to pace themselves perfectly to dip under a certain time, only to find they miss out because “the course was long”, or tunnels, underpasses and the like mean their Garmin lost signal and threw the pace number out of the window.

    It doesn’t have to happen that way. Even on a course with tunnels, or with inaccurate mile markers, or even on a long course(*), you can set up your Garmin in such a way as to always know how you’re doing in the race, rather than get the nasty surprise at the end. I’ve been asked to explain on threads and fmails several times, so I thought I’d stick it here for posterity.

    On the screen you’re going to look at while racing, you need to have at least these two data fields displayed:
    a) Pace – Lap
    b) Time – Average Lap
    And you also need to switch AutoLap off. And AutoPause too, if you use that normally.

    You then need to hit the Lap button at each mile marker.

    So within each mile, you look at “Pace – Lap” to see how you’re doing just for this mile (don’t use Pace (current) for this, it changes too frequently).

    And for the race as a whole, you can see your situation by comparing “Time – Average Lap” to your goal pace.

    And that’s it. This will work for races with tunnels, skyscrapers, tight turns, inaccurate mile markers – anything. As an illustration:

    Say you’re trying to break 90min for a HM. So you need to run better than 6:52min/mile average for the 13.11 mile course.

    Without doing what I suggest above:
    If you steady pace mile one with your Garmin pace field showing 6:50m/m, but the Garmin distance at the first mile marker is 1.01m – then you’ll actually pass the mile marker in 6:54 (but the Garmin will have beeped at 6:50 with AutoLap).
    If every mile goes by like this, going by Gamin pace alone you’ll think you’ve cracked the 90min, but you’ll actually come home in around 90:50. The GPS distance will record 13.24m, and you might think the course was long (although it almost certainly wasn’t).
    That would be pretty frustrating, since you might think you’d paced it perfectly. It’s even more frustrating when the margin is closer, if the Garmin “over-read” on distance is less than the 1% above.

    If the same runner sets up the Garmin as above:
    Pass mile one, hit lap manually – they know that the first mile was 6:54, not 6:50. The field “Time – Average Lap” says 6:54m/m. They’re slower than 6:52 target pace and are aware of it. Until they speed up and this field reads better than 6:52, they’re still behind the pace.

    If you miss a mile marker, this method is not screwed up either – you just need to make a lap somewhere, even if it’s not accurate. As long as you have pressed lap X times when you pass the X mile marker, the field “Time – Average Lap” will be your average pace in the race to this point (it’s basically doing the same calculation you would do if you took total time and divided it by total race distance at that point).

    Forget about Virtual Partner; since the GPS measure of distance isn’t (sufficiently) reliable you can see why that isn’t a reliable method.

    (*) Officially measured courses are not long, even if your Garmin says it is. GPS cannot be relied upon to be accurate to better than 1-2% typically, s

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    AG, I'm sure you'll feel better when your back to full strength.  I suspect the recovery week is jsut the right time for you!

    Menannia, I've also added the lap display to my Garmin screen along with the two you mentioned - as in my last HM there were a few missing markers so I wasn't sure if I had to press the lap button once or twice when I did see a marker.  I had average pace per lap set for the second one (rather than time) so this might fix it.   

  • Men, you can't say Garmins are accurate if they are out by 1 or 2% out!

    It might not sound much but 1% of a mile is 16 metres, I don't run 16 metres off line every mile, I was on an accurately measured course yesterday and my garmin was way out.

    That 1% over 26.2 miles is quite a big difference.
  • In reference to running on a race track, we had a Borders League race very recently on a race track on Anglesey, North Wales.  It was quite undualting in parts with a few short but fairly steep climbs in places, it was also fairly windy maybe due to the fact that it was quite open and right next to the sea.  But the surface was very fast, it was a 5 mile course and there was a lot of PB's on the day, I had a stich 2 mile from the end, slowed right down, nearly retired, my 5 mile time was 29:28.  Very enjoyable experience on the track, different but good.

  • Fair point Mark, but I find the errors compensate generally. If you use the average lap time you are then assessing your pace against the mile markers to realistically you cant compound the 1 -2 % error as it is corrected everytime you press lap.

  • Blimey. Spend a few hours away from the computer and you have to actually make notes to reply to everyone.

    HeOw & NN: race number for VLM stalking (you'll have forgotten it by then) or for post-stalking of yesterday's HM?

    Stutyr: no, I got just under 1:35 for my first half and then got the championship time a year later in Sept 2012, though didn't realise it qualified for VLM till later and quickly joined a club to shamelessly exploit them for their UKA affiliation.

    Al: I'd say you can drop the LT run, but if I had your schedule, I'd also swap Tuesday and Wednesday round, then swap Thursday with Friday. That way all the longer runs are over with earlier in the week and you get to rest on Friday, but you've still covered the miles.

    AG: great news that you're not getting the leg pain, and I think 12 miles at MP is tough when you're not actually doing a race. I'm planning to make up that session this week instead of the scheduled LT run (skipped it to do 21-miler) and am not looking forward to it at all. Plus you're just getting back into training after injury, so it's not really an indication of how you'll feel on the day.

    Ten, Al: you should swap race numbers, then you'll find each other easily at Silverstone and the rest of us can all stalk you. image

    Re. Garmins, mine was more or less spot on all the mile markers at Tunbridge Wells, though it ended up just slightly short of 13.1 miles, which was fine by me as I was ready to stop!

  • Men, if you press the lap button on every mile then it'll be fine, I just thought I'd mention it on here because it would be a horrible feeling running down the mall if you'd missed your time by a few seconds!

    I do most of my running with my mate and our watches are usually slightly out from each other so I'm not going to rely on it too much.
  • OK Lit permission to stalk granted...

    Ten: my race number is 4302, I'll be wearing a blue vest unless it's freezing...

    Lit - thanks for the advice on swapping runs around. Definitely makes more sense your way.

  • Jeez, so much to catch up!

    Brilliant HM times, Lit & mark imageimageimage 

    sorry, you had a rubbish run, NN. But it's exactly those ones that toughen us up. And it's all miles in the bank. In general I have more shit than good runs ...

    No Pain wrote (see)


    ... had to stop for a paddle in the sea at the end it's far better than a cold bathimage This run had MP at miles 5,6,7,10,18,19,20image

    imageimageimage - how bliddy cold was that, NP?? You nutter image

    HeOw wrote (see)


    My plan this week is rest today, 7 miles recovery pace tomorrow, 14 MLR Wed (which I am adding last week's missed LT 6 miles to) but my child free days are Mon/Wed/Fri - so it makes sense to do the 7 miles recovery today. Would that be bad idea though after 22.5 yesterday?

    if your legs feel fine, no harm in doing an easy 7 miler I'd say

    AgentGinger wrote (see)


    The marathon pace for 12miles felt pretty tough, not sure how i'll sustain that for 26.2 miles in 9 weeks time, but i guess there's still some fitness to be gained before then. I'm most pleased that i didn't have any leg pani or soreness during or after the run. Legs a little heavy perhaps but not uncomfortable, so although I covered just 32 miles last week, instead of the planned 45 I think it was the right decision, and hopefully i can return back to the plan this week.


    don't worry too much about MP at this stage, AG. I usually struggle with it until about 4 weeks out when suddenly it's like somebody flicked a switch and MP feels the most natural thing to do. Have faith and trust in the training image

  • Forgot to say 15m at 7.45mm for me on sat lunch from home to Chester. Makes my Feb total already greater than Jan.

  • Thanks for the encouragement everyone.  It still feels a bit of a leap of faith for me, but I'll set out with the intention of making it to 1:50 and see where it gets me (pulled over in the pit lane most likely image).

    My number is 2851 and I will mostly be being lapped by Al.  I haven't made a decision what I'll be wearing yet - that's a job for Saturday.  It won't be a vest though - I'm too slow for that - more like an overcoat image

    Today's VO2max session went well.  The first time I've tried it outside, and yet again it was much more fun than on the treadie!  My target pace for the intervals was 7:51, so I had set-up the garmin pace range as 7:45 to 7:55.  I left the recovery periods to wait for me to press the lap button, and checked my heart rate  to assess when to start the next interval (usually after about 0.25m of recovery pace running).

    My pace during each interval was 7:51/7:51/7:51/7:41/7:48 with average heart rates 152/153/155/156/158bpm (max 165bpm).  The pacing was really good I think, but the heart rate range for VO2max session should be 178 to 182bpm image  Hmmm, not sure what to make of that.  I won't start increasing paces at this stage in case of injury, and see how I do in the half marathon.

    It was a really enjoyable session and seemed to be over very quickly.  I thought I might struggle after Saturday's 22m run, so this was a pleasant surprise.  Also, loosening the laces on my shoes seems to have helped avoid the foot pain.

    Tomorrow will be 12MLR.

  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    I'm also doing a half on Sunday so, like NN, I have swapped weeks so that this one is recovery. I did 20 yesterday, which went well, and plan to do VO2max intervals tomorrow, 12 miles MLR on Wednesday and easier stuff for the rest of the week. I don't know how likely a PB is, though, as I think my legs must be pretty tired from all this training.

    Ten, I did Silverstone a couple of years ago. It was sooooo cold and windy - I definitely could not have worn a vest! image Allow time for walking from the car park to the starting area, too, as it was bit of a trek.

  • Ten, if your heart rate isn't high then you need to run em faster!! image

    Literatin - I want to stalk your race from yesterday!  

    Thanks for advice re run today but I decided against it, felt tired so thought best not.  Ironed for 3 hours instead. image  It's a bastard being fussy. 

    I have said this before but I swapped weeks and had recovery week prior to Wrexham Half and it definitely helped on the day. I felt very fresh.  


  • ON looking at the rest of the plan, the largest volume of MRP for me is 16 with 14 at MRP.  Hmm, the 14 at MRP is fine, I know I can do that as I have done 20 at that pace prior to Chester marathon (I know, I know, I am a cock) but I am thinking maybe change that 16 to a 20 with 14 @ MRP - run the first 6 at recovery pace?  I just think it would benefit me more.  Anyone think this is a bad idea?  

  • Ten I am afraid Heow is right , if the heart rate is down you need to try harder, but we will let you off as you have a race next Sunday

    Heow I am ashamed to say I don't iron anything unless its too creased its embarrassing to wear !!..just like I hate cooking the less I do the better..did I ever say I was a good house wife  ? NO !! maybe that's why I am single lol...the longest mp run in y schedule is 17 with 14 @ mp..that sees to be the one big difference between the 2 editions more mp miles in the second..oh you lucky people have fun !!image

    Caz what half are you running ? expect some serious web stalking for the results there is no hiding here..image


  • HeOw, your stalking skills can't be that advanced (yet) if you can't do anything with 'fifth lady, called Katie, sub 1.30', but okay, I did this race with number 2417. image

    I don't know whether the extra mileage on the MRP run is a bad idea or not, but I don't imagine it'd be necessary (in terms of extra benefit) unless you're desperate to find space somewhere for an extra 20-miler and don't have anywhere else to put it. But then I am a slacker who just tapers whenever she feels like it.

  • NN, I am single too but I iron bedlinen, teatowels and handkerchiefs. Perhaps there is a happy medium somewhere?

    Oh yes, and on running in vests, I have done races in two or three vests rather than long sleeves and that works okay if you prefer to look well hard yet keep your body warm. Did a sort of striptease practice run on Sat though and decided it was freezing enough for the long-sleeved top this time.

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