P + D training for VLM 2013



  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Quite tempted to enter that Salford 10k on good friday...trouble is it's 5 days after wilmslow half.

    15 miles this lunchtime in 1hr50. Nice it was, sunny and cold.

  • I did my first track session last night. 2ish miles jog to the track, and 2ish miles back, with the session of 5x800m with slow 400m jogs between.

    The P&D plan says to run the intervals at 5k pace, which would be about 03:55 per 800m, but my splits were:

    3:51, 3:45, 3:32, 3:32, 3:23

    I found the first interval really easy, and accidentally sped up for the second interval (i.e. wasn't intended, i was trying to hit the same pace). By the third and fourth I deliberately picked it up a bit, and for the last one, I gradually picked up the pace for the last lap and was flat out for the last 100m.

    Not sure if i've done this session wrong. It seemed too easy at 5k pace, and I don't feel like my legs are too knackered this morning. The recovery laps in between intervals were enough to make me feel fresh for the next interval. So, my question is, am I better off sticking to the 5k pace or should I feel free to push it a bit if i feel I can handle it? I'm not sure what the best training effect would be, but it seems that if I'm at the track doing 800m repeats it's because i'm supposed to be training my VO2 capacity and fast twitch fibres, and so shouldn't be totally comfortable, otherwise i'm missing the point of the session. What are your thoughts?

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    AG, my understanding was that the key things to do in intervals was to (a) get a consistent speed and (b) struggle a bit to maintain pace towards the end of the last one (similar to that final push in a race).  I think the consistency thing is more for the reverse of your situation, if you start too hard because you are fresh, and then slow towards the end of the session then you'll get less benefit from it.

    Looking at your times, on your next session try to aim for 3:30 for all intervals, and if you still feel OK after that reduce it by 5 seconds for the subsequent session (or if you really struggle on the last interval, increase it by 5 seconds for the next session).

    You're faster than you think image 

  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    I am regarding my half marathon as a "tune up race" and may do a parkrun or two. Otherwise, there isn't much in the way of races on a Saturday. P&D do seem a bit inconsistent in that they say a tune up race should be a full-out effort which you can taper for, but the schedule has a long run the following day!

  • AG, I agree with Stu you are probably a bit quicker than you think over 800m.

    Your body will tell you if you've overdone it, see how your legs feel when you run next.

    Maybe next time up the pace of your reps a little bit.

    I did my run this morning, ended up doing 14 miles rather than 15 because I felt really tired. I don't think I've recovered from Sunday yet. I'm not sure if I've been stupid to jump back into normal training after a race.
  • Caz, the way I look at the programme it would be a 10k race followed by a very easy paced long run the day after.

    I think ill be doing a very easy run most Saturdays with a slightly harder long run the day after.
  • thanks Mark and Stu, good advice. I guess I have some benchmark now to pitch my future reps against. I think about 3:30 per 800m rep, for all 5 reps will probably be nearer the mark for a VO2 workout. I suppose the P&D plan is a bit conservative when it comes to speed training, but i think they do mention that in the book.

    either way I think David Rudisha's 800m record is safe for the moment. To confuse things a little, my next track session is 5x 600m.

    So if i was planning to do 5x800m reps at 7:00min/mi pace then i can probably speed up to about 6:50min/mi and run the 600m reps in around 2:33 per rep.

    Gives me something to aim for at least.


  • AG good to be able to use a track for them, helps to give you a consistency to set a baseline against.

    The pace of the top guys is frightening, their recovery pace is probably quicker than my stridesimage

  • Up early of nights for this 13 miler, Wife in work at 4, felt fairly fresh but not 100%, Averaged 7:38 min/miles, should of possibly gone a little slower as I ran 15 yesterday,  Recovery tomorrow and starting my LT runs on Friday. 

    Hope eveyone has good runs today, nice to have some quite nice weather.

  • JF50, you're not wrong about the pace of the top guys on the track. I estimate I probably covered the last 100m of my last rep in a slower pace than the marathon winners run for 2 hours. Those guys are frighteningly fast.

    To be fair, there were a bunch of runners at the track last night (Mile End in east london if anyone was wondering) who weren't too shabby either. Most of the other runners were breezing past me as though it was nothing. It does spur you on a bit to think "I want a bit of that pace, I wonder how close I can get"

  • 14 miles done.  Started with first 7 at 9m/m average then did my missed LT session from last week which was 7:57 (as I warmed up into it, was hard trying to hit pace); 7:38; 7:30; 7:20 (down incline); 7:22 (back on flat) then back to easy pace for 2 miles.  Bloody hard. 

    Will now read what you all have been up to since err, 10am when I last looked!

  • HeOw that last two miles must have been easy if you're only just backimage

    Good times on the LT miles

  • Start my LT runs on Friday, its saying 10 miles with 5 at LT, so would I be right in saying 2.5 mile warm up, 5 at LT then 2.5 cool down.  How exactly should I run my LT pace, before I started this P&D my half marathon time was 85 minutes, I raced a half marathon 2 weeks ago and brought it down to 80 minutes.  Macmillan says my half marathon pace is now 6:09, is this what I should be running the LT section of the run.

  • Lots of reading back, some nice MLR's done and some with pace image well done.

    15 miles banked by me just over 7 weeks left to go.

    Regarding the races to close or not to the marathon I have a half marathon on the 23rd (4 weeks out) and a 10k two weeks out. So after the half I will have one last long run of 20 to complete and will be into the taper after the 10k.
  • Are you doing Edinburgh Marathon, Craig? An 80min half (well done by the way, i can only dream of such a time) means your pace was 6:06, so running your LT sections at that pace sounds about right. P&D does suggest you stick the LT section in approx the middle of the run. I don't suppose it makes a huge difference whether it's a 3mi warmup and 2mi cooldown, or vice versa or an even split. Perhaps plan it so your faster running is going to be on an uninterrupted stretch of road - assuming you're running outside in town - so you don't have to stop for lights and break your flow.

    Do you have as target time for the marathon?

  • AgentGinger

    I'm doing Manchester marathon April 28th and my target is a sub 3 hour, my marathon paced runs, I run at around 6:35-6:40 pace, which I am finding just about right. What about yourself which marathon are you targeting and what time are you expecting?

  • I'd run them a bit faster than half pace Craig. Say between half mara and 10k pace. Which for you will probably be 6 min pace (can't check McMillan at mo). I personally think you get more benefits from pushing a bit on the lt to the higher end of pace range. But if it feels unsustainable then back off to half mara pace. Good luck with the first one. The lt runs are always the ones I dread, but always feel chuffed after doing them.
  • Managed to book a 10k warm up race on the 23rd in Richmond. Will just do a Park run for the first warm up race. Have to see what's available for the third on the 6th April.
  • Had been doing a few LT runs of my own accord before starting P&D, around 4 miles and used to aim for around 6-6:15 pace, I will be pushing for  around 6 min/mile pace for the LT bit, I'm the same about them dread them, usuallly ok when I get going though.  

    Felt quite tired going out today, I had to get up early off a night shift to get a 13 mile MLR in as my Wife was in work and had to get back for the children.  I had ran a 15 yesterday and my intial aim was to run it very slow around 8 min/mile pace, but me being me pushed it again, but feel ok and have a nice 5 mile recovery tomorrow. 

  • Hello everyone, been following this thread with great interest. This is first post and VLM will be first marathon. I have been following the P&D 18 wk upto 55m schedule quite religiously up till a couple of weeks ago and becuase training had been going well i had set my heart on a sub 3:45 time rather than my original 4hrs. The problem is i have been suffering from shin splints in last couple of weeks and this is starting to affect schedule. Quality of tempos been greatly affected and even the mileage has had to be cut down. My real question is i suppose is how best i should  manage these. I'm concerned i dont have the stamina yet as missed a few longer runs and am thinking should i cut back on most other running at the moment and just save myself for the long runs to get a few in the bag. I think physically i could just about manage this at moment. Possibly leave nxt run till this sunday and try and get a 20 in?? I managed just under 1:48 for a half about 4 weeks ago does this all bode well for a sub 3:45 attempt still? all suggestions really appreciated, thanks.

  • Welcome LTB - 3 quality runs a week in the schedule, LSR, MLR and then the LT/VO2/Tempo in that order. If you can manage those and cut out the filler miles until your legs settle. Good luck.

    Guys, - Lost my MOJO a bit. Struggling to get out there and not really enjoying it at the mo. Have managed to get a 15 in 7.45mm and a six recovery today but the CNBA monkey is on my back. Am hoping tommorows 12 with 7 at LT is going to be a spark for me. Need to book another tune up race me thinks!


  • Oh no, Men, hope you get your running mojo back soon! Maybe this is the answer to SR's tune-up race questions: use them as interim goals for whenever you feel like you can't be arsed.

    LTB, welcome to the thread. Hope you like cold baths and swearing. Can't help with target times etc. as I haven't got the marathon experience some of the others on here do, but good luck with the training. Hope you're doing plenty of calf stretches.

    Craig, I've been doing my LT runs faster than my half mara pace when I started the programme, because I assumed my half pace would be faster than it was last Sept, as indeed it was. image Think P&D are a bit stern about not doing them TOO fast, though.

    On which note, AG, I agree that the VO2 intervals felt a bit easy at 5k pace. Maybe we are just quicker at 5k these days than we think? I was confused by the book there because on the one hand it says don't run them too fast, and to keep to 5k rather than 3000m pace, but on the other hand it says you need 5 days to recover from that session before a tune-up race, when actually I recovered quicker than from most other quality sessions.

    SR, I won't be doing a tune-up race on 6 April, as it's my birthday and I plan to drink gin all day.

    And HeOw, great run!

  • Hello LTB!

    I agree with Men about the 3 most important runs, also do you have a bike?

    Cycling gives you great fitness and leg strength that transfers well to running.

    The hardest part of a first marathon is getting to the start line without being injured,

    I suspect you've probably overdone the training a little bit, I know I couldn't have managed the schedule you are following in my first marathon.
  • Oh, forgot my run. My quads stopped aching from Sunday's half just in time for a 15.2 mile MLR in 1:56. I did 6.3 miles by myself before my club run at just under 8mm pace (trying not to be late), then ended up running with some blokes at club night who were doing what I think of as 'mid-life crisis pace'. So I decided to just go with it and treat it as a replacement for the 15 miles with 12 at MRP run that I skipped two weeks ago. I ended up with 8 miles within 10 seconds or so either side of target MRP, so that'll do. There was a funny moment when one bloke agreed to run home with me, only to realise I was planning to go round the long way (an extra mile) and that he'd have to keep it up all the way home.

    The pace, that is. Keep the pace up.

  • I defo got bit carried away on LT run today and have admonished myself about it all evening, it wasn't pleasant, it didn't feel controlled the last two miles and hasn't done anything for me.  Lesson learned.  

    Welcome LovestheBuzz - do you want the truth?  No-one knows what they are capable of at their first marathon until they do it but a 3:45 with 1:48 HM time is asking for a lot, in my opinion.  You are similarly paced runner to I was when I did my first (my HM time was 1:45 few weeks before my first marathon) and I struggled to do 4:06 at Manchester last year (albeit weather was atrocious!) but even with perfect weather, probably would have only managed a 4:02.   I would do what Mennania advises, drop the recovery runs and make sure you are running your sessions at the right pace, not too fast.  Shin splints are not something I have had so cannot advise re them! What paces are you running long runs at etc? 

    Oh Mennania - have a kick up the fanny from me.  Stop fucking moaning boy and go do it.  You want this or not?!  image

  • Literatin - cracking run, again! Laughed at the bloke wimping out! Brilliant.  You are doing it for us birds good and proper.  

  • Interestingly I was going to add 'Men, just wait for HeOw to come along and give you a sweary pep talk'.

    Actually the club guy didn't wimp out, he did it, but he didn't enjoy it! image

  • Well done on the super running everyone.

    AG - it sounds like you need to run those intervals a little faster to me. I found a similar thing to you when I did them so I just pushed a bit more.

    Lit - that sounds like a great run to me

    LTB - welcome. I'm impressed you even considered this plan for your first marathon. I don't think I went beyond 40 miles max the first time I trained for the distance. Cutting back is probably the sensible thing to do.

    I did 11 miles with 7 @ LT pace . Average 8:10 for the LT bit which was the same as last time so pleased and HR never reached the top alert even on the hills so getting better. Rest day tomorrow image
  • Thanks everyone. Will try to manage it the best i can, and think ur mainly saying LSR most important so will try to make sure i can atleast try to complete these

  • HI,


    Did the 15 miler at 7.16 pace.  I find it harder doing 15 miles in the evening than on a weekend morning.

    Lit, can't find 'drinking gin all day' on any of the schedules.  Perhaps you have a draft version of the new 3rd edition?

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