P + D training for VLM 2013



  • Teknik thanks for that.

    That formula looks pretty well spot on for me then, I last followed P&D 4 years ago , concentrating more on knocking out the high miles which I LOVE and almost ignoring marathon paced runs and used my mid week club runs as tempo runs which  sometimes allowing for the usual stops and starts for re grouping were really probably not fast enough  and after a 1.39 half in the march at Reading which is a nice course
    I did a very comfortable 3.40 marathon in London,with 4 min neg split image so think I took it took easy but I loved it and felt so strong over the last 10k . 

    But !! my 10k time around then was only 47 mins which according to that formula gives me nearer 4 hours but I admit I am lazy when it comes to speed work image and pain image and would rather run nice 15 miler anyday than race a 5k which I have never ever done so no idea of my 5k time ..

     My times over half marathon and 10k are pretty well much th same now, without any specific training I have been using the HRM over the last few months and have seen my HR for 70% pace runs drop from over 10 min miling to just over 9s I really really would love to get 3.3**  in London so I am determined to do the pacier stuff this time and using the HRM I am sure will help. my 10k times say NO chance but I do seem to get better the further I run

    keir .. so you are saying to run I the marathon paced runs based on recent half marathon times ? and ignore the HR (as long as its not stupidly high of course ) ?

    I shall keep reading and following the thread I cant really give any advice or debate but really enjoy reading all the ideas...and am learning alot I just now have to put it to practice.

    Sorry for long post  off for 9 miles now before getting ready to go to back to work 


  • Hi Ziggy and welcome image

    kease: please PM me your e-mail address so I can send the doc.

    will catch up properly tomorrow image


  • I would like to join in too! I think I am the slowest here, image I have done 3 marathons previously and have a PB of 4.29. I would like to get closer to 4 hours image

    I have the book and will be starting training on 17th Dec for VLM, I have read most of the thread so far and will catch up properly tomorrow with the rest.

    Chickadee - I will send a PM for the spreadheet thingy too if that's ok.


  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Credit for the P&D Spreadsheet goes to SteveC who used to post on the sub 3:15 thread.  image

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    I'm having problems with the spreadsheet. When i enter a number in the PMP box it doesn't update in the Main tab. And the number ( eg 9 ) shows as nil .... 00:00. If i format this to 2 dp the paces still don't update in the Main tab ? Is it just me ?

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    This question goes out to those who use HR training.

    When you do strides, what %max do you get. Still trying to get my head round strides image I've read up on it and the answer seems to be " relaxed sprints ".

    So is this more intense than 5k pace ? And why not just sprint ?

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Mace, strides were best explained to me by an ex-cyclist (similar to myself). In cycling you do the odd session where you try to spin your lowest gear almost as fast as you can for 10 - 20sec. You are not trying to train your heart or lungs - these sessions ar't about cardio fitness. Instead you are trying to teach your body to pedal efficiently. The best way is to do this fast.

    But, you don't want to be absolutely flat out as at that point you will be bouncing around in the saddle, gritting your teeth and tightening your arms, shoulders etc. You want to accelerate into the exercise rather than sprint from the gun. Instead you want to be at 95-97% flat out - so you are totally relaxed bodywise, focused on form yet spinning those legs. Repeated 8 - 10 times, once per week helps to create stong neuro-musclar pathways which improve your form.

    I think strides are exactly the same type of exercise.

  • Mace, the cell where you input PMP should be in a time format e.g hh:mmimages.

    I had to reformat the time / pace based cells. I don't have Exel infront of me to check the format I used
  • Welcome ziggy & pottermiss

    Morning everyone, great 13miles this am here in SG.

  • Nearly finished my shift image Kease posting @4.40 ??then I realised you are in


    Did a nice 9 miler all @70% before work last night all well under 9s, very flat and cool...suits me

    On the subject of strides, I last time I followed the schedule I wasnt really sure where to fit them into the run..what I ended up doing was 100m at the beginning of every  mile, is that the right way or should they be done closer together than that over a couple the middle miles ? I understood them to be about checking form and running strong and controlled I love those sessions

  • Hello Pottermiss!

    13 miles this morning in 1.43. Averaged 7.57 min miles which seems about my steady pace to run at.

    Finished the last few miles a bit quicker with the last mile at about marathon pace.

    Miles splits 8.15, 8.04, 8.23, 8.12, 8.19, 8.15, 8.18, 7.53, 7.54, 7.52, 7.43, 7.26, 6.42.

    Think I prefer running in the winter!
  • pottermiss & kease: you both got mail image

    nice progressive running mark1981

    bit of a hectic day for me - will catch up properly over the next few days. Managed 6 miles slooooow with hubby earlier which brings me to 50 miles this week. Happy image

  • Afternoon all,

    I did a very enjoyable, slow, hilly off-road 14.25 miles today, all round (and up and down) Box Hill in Surrey. Average heart rate was 136 bpm (62% WHR, 70%max), and I managed to keep running for all of the 1,800ft of ascent image

  • 21km done at 78% MHR. Felt a lot easier than usual - I think it must be the recent cross country events I've done. Someone at my club recommended that I do the VO2 sessions on the basis that I need to get my body used to running at a faster pace, so perhaps I will try to do some after all.

  • Sorry in advance for the long rambling post............

    I've not been running long so I'm enjoying the fact PB's are easy to achieve  just now. However it does mean that I've no idea of how quick I should be thinking of trying to do London in.

    I've ran one marathon. It was Edinburgh in May this year and I ran it in a conservative 3hr 59min. (I hadn't really trained for it, well not much running at least)

    Since then I've mostly been running Parkruns and have reduced my PB from 25min to 19min 23sec.

    During this period I've also ran the Great Scottish Run in 1hr 39min and a local 10k in 41min 02sec.

    Then this morning I went for a long run that turned into a bit of tempo run and I set a new PB for a half. It was 1hr 38min (55min for the 1st half and then 43 for the 2nd) with an overall avg HR of 139.

    I've used the McMillan Pace Calculator but I'm wary of basing my marathon training on a 5k time especially since I don't really have many miles of training under my belt. (McMillan suggests a marathon time of 3hr 09min based on my 5k but to be honest I find that a bit scary)

    Should I just find a half marathon, see how quick I can do it, and then pace my training on that time? Or should I be basing my training on heart rate?

    Again apologies for the rambling nature of this post....my copy of P&D hasn't even arrived yet so prepare yourselves for even more tedious questions when it does. image

  • hello everyone,image

    i am new to this thread and this will be my first marathon, (going through a charity close to me) i need some advice as to whats the best schedule to get me upto the distance without any injuries ive done a few halfs at around 2.15, but have not really done any training, i am only runnning 4-5 miles a few times a week, i am injury free right now apart from recovering from a chest infection.

    Any tips or advice would b gladly appreciated

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Sarnie - If your target is to complete - rather than to risk racing / injury and not starting, then I would recommend a programme which is light on higher intensity work.   The best programme is the one whih you are going to stick to and get you to the start line injury free. No point starting out on the 55m P&D plan if you are never going to stick to that mileage and if you are likely to pick up and injury (from enxperience of the mileage / intensity). 

    The runners world marathon plans are as good a place as any to start. If in doubt, drop the intensity or rest rather than pushing it.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Ziggie - base your target marathoin pace on what McMillian predicts based upon your 1.38HM from today. As you get fitter / get more PBs - continue to check McMillian and increase your pace accordingly. As you get closer to the actual day you will have a better guess on how your training has gone and your possible time. If you are really wanting to know, I reckon you should be aiming for between 3.15 and 3.30. image

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    NightNurse - don't get hung up on strides. Do them as the mood takes you. There are so many prescriptive paces / HRs etc to worry about in general in training, how often to stride isn't an issue. Just run between occassional lamp-posts or something.  

  • Ran 12.5miles today at a very easy pace, I stopped the clock at 1:41 which includes stopping multiple times waiting for a green man to cross roads. image Felt like I could run that pace for a long time so quietly confident of a decent time ahead of my half marathon on Saturday.

     33.5miles (0-5-6-0-5-5-12.5) for me this week which is my highest weekly mileage to date.Still building up to the mid 40's before hitting P+D 18/55 in December! 

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Keir - thanks, so it's basically about keeping and exaggerating form at speed but not running flat out image

    Also ran - thabkyou, that's done the job, all seems to be working ok now

    15.8M yesterday am @ 9:07 @ 70% max. Felt very solid which i suspect is the benefit of doing 2 mid-week 10milers (Tues/Fri) and HR only starting to edge towards 75% in the last couple of miles, though they were uphill.

    Week total 52.9M image my first 50 image


  • Haven't checked here for a few days - loads of good running and training chat!

    I took in the first 7 miles of VLM route as part of my 20M LR yesterday. Much more undulating than I'd expected. Also there was a killer hill just before Greenwich Park but luckily that's not part of the course...

    My recurring ITB pain is back today, think it might be from the downhill sections - most of my training is on the flat.Time for the foam roller and boring glute strengthening exercises...

    Incidentally - what do people think of the lack of emphasis on hill training in P&D? The last schedule I did had a hill repeat session most weeks.I think P&D say you should more or less mimick the terrain of your marathon in training.

  • Al: Ditto! Have you tried an IT band compression strap? It doesn't really resolve the problem but it reduces the friction allowing you to train without the pain. I spent yesterday evening laying on my bed watching MOTD and doing my rehab exercises.



  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Welcome Ziggy and Pottermissimage

    Nice running Ship-star

    Well done Mace - good total and a great run at low HRimage. Strides are good - short enough to be alactic, so you don't 'spoil' the aerobic build-up (Lydiard)

    Al take care.  I must admit that I'm going to add hill work this time - my Hadd HR training tends to make me stick to the flat in search of constant HR/pace improvement, and I found that at the end of the last mara it wasn't my heart/lungs that was the issue - I need bigger legs. So hills it is...


    Knee still an issue, so am taking a couple of more days off...


  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Tek - how long did you take off after Frankfurt and what mileage have you done since ? You have loads more experience than me so i'm sure you know what you're doing but i was surprised how much my half took out of me, i'd absolutely be looking at 2 weeks off after a full

    Is your HR back to normal yet ?

    Hope a few more days sees you right.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    mace I'm on the P&D recovery plan -p.178 - so 5 weeks of 15/24/31/36/41.  HR still elevated (but that's ok, HR training means you just run more slowly until your body's 'ready').  I took 3 days off, but maybe it should have been more...image

  • Re the hills I am guessing that all the training the authors did was in perfect locations which isn't what most of us have to train with. I could have a nice flat area to train if I didn't mind doing repeats along the high street but once away from there it is lots of either long slow inclines or short sharp ones.  Trail running through the winter has drawbacks with mud etc. so I think most people have to adapt the plans slightly for their area.

    By adding another day and starting to take my long run to 13+ I have hit the 40+ a week now so sort of on schedule for the 18/55 plan, with inclinesimage

  • Hi all,

    Planning to do the P+D for Vlm, not sure of what mileage but will probably need to be closer to the 70 than the 55. Enjoying reading the posts of peoples experience and hopefully put some of my own up soon.

  • http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/clubhouse/rw-forum-six/231845.html

    Just seeing if there is any interest in these parts. Think it over - can you mentor? do you want to a mentor?

    What does anyone think, maybe you are getting enough support here anyway?

    Than you for listening.

  • Another nice 11.2 miles in 1.43 ...really enjoying these longer 70% runs feels so easy at this pace now

    I have no choice and have to run hills where I live but try to keep HR down and am finding it easier to avoid it drifting over 71-72% when running them and its great to see it drop to mid 60s when running down them and on to the flat again.

    VLM isnt a hilly route so I don think there is need for hill training as such...I did Snowdonia marathon a few years ago and did lots of training for that over Dartmoor looking for the biggest longest hills I could and boy am I glad I did ..I did Snowdonia in just under 4.30 loved it and would like to do it again .

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