P + D training for VLM 2013



  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Teknik wrote (see)

    mace - the Vdot intervals are at 5k pace (P&D p24)...you won't be able to focus on the HR monitor image,but that should be 93-95% max-ish.

    Interesting. What should HM HR be as a % of max?

    Teknik wrote (see)

    My goals are to get back up to 65m pw (all slow except maybe one sub-LT pw), jump on the P&D 12/70 (with extra LSR miles), and 

    Interesting again. I also have planned for HADD to turn into P&D 18week. Put perhaps if I 'think' I am still HADDing for a further 6 weeks rather than P&D, it might help to reel me in a bit, which will probably be better long term and also mean I am fresher for the final 12 P&D weeks. image

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    I've got a place in VLM and am planning to follow the P&D 18 week/55 mile plan.  

    I had been toying with the idea of starting the plan two weeks early (3rd Dec) so that any unexpected lay-offs (minor injuries, cough/cold etc) still allowed me to complete the plan.  Has anyone successfully used this approach?  

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Keir - the HR I quoted is from P&D p19.  They don't put one in for a HM...personally my HM HR is way higher than MP HR as there's only 13 miles of drift to worry about...I'd be interested to hear what the guys on the Hadd thread say...

    added advantage of 12w is no Vdot until 6 weeks to go (vs 8 weeks)

    Hi stutyr - I always add an extra recovery week for that reason...image

  • Hi all,

    I wouldn't mind some advice please, as I'm trying to decide between two options.

    Option A is to start following the 18 week 55-70m schedule at the beginning of December (22 weeks away from my proposed marathon on 6th May), and to plan to repeat 3-4 weeks of the schedule. This would mean I could extend the 2nd phase (or mesocycle) and could repeat some of the weeks where there are long runs @ MP....

    Option B is to spend the time from mid November to beginning of January base building, with lots of slow aerobic running, and no real speedwork. Then start the 18 week schedule on 1st January....

    If it helps, my average weekly mileage this year is around 40-45 miles.

    What do you reckon?
  • Keir wrote (see)
    Interesting. What should HM HR be as a % of max?

    Presumably HM is very close to your threshold pace, so between 80-88% depending on how fit you are? 

  • Evening YP!

    I would answer your OptionA/B question in a slightly different way...use the time until January to develop good habits...I wrote what follows on another thread earlier:

    I believe the real key is developing good habits: people on other threads have talked about "consistent consistency"...getting out there and routinely, and progressively "doing it". I would be looking for a long run at the weekend, and a medium-long run midweek: these would gradually increase in length, and intensity. And lots of other miles.
    There are indeed lots of plans out there: many of these will do the trick, but only with that constant commitment over the next 4 or 5 months. I coach a couple of people and the most frustrating thing is the lack of that "consistent consistency"..."I was too tired/a friend persuaded me to go the pictures/pub/shopping" etc.

    (So that's one vote for option B!)

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    +1 for B.

    The problem with option A is although you are keen to get started now, you are likely to become mentally tired and few up of it all after 15 - 16 weeks of proper marathon training. Normally this isn't a problem as 2 - 3 weeks taper and you are there. Any plan longer than 18 weeks is just too long to remained focused on.

    Keep running easy, enjoy the running, focus on form, recovery and avoiding colds and injuries. Then try to get the weekly mileage and LSR up so you are ready to start in Jan.

  • Keir:  I meant to mention the mental tiredness, too!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Thanks Alehouse / Keir

    Your replies make a lot of sense, and are very much in line with my original intentions.

    To be honest, I'm not particularly keen to get started on the formal bit of a program, and am actually looking forward to having 6+ weeks of consistent, steady running, with the focus being on miles, miles, and more miles image
  • Hi Everyone !!

    Count me in for this one, i've never done a program before and from what i've heard this is a great one to do. Last marathon was 7 years ago so i'm a bit rusty at the minute, that was London with probably about 30 miles a week and only one run of 16 miles (stupid i know) came home in 3.27.  Building my base at the moment, up to 40 mpw this week will be doing the 18 wk up to 55 program, probably will just add a few extra miles to bump it up a bit.  By the way its Manchester for me so start the program on Christmas eve.

  • My HR monitor arrived, very exciting. I lay on my bed and checked my resting HR which I'm sure everyone does when they open it up for the first time! image

    Did anyone train this morning, I've got 6 miles planned later this evening, nice and easy!.

  • Welcome ashman, I'm doing manchester also image rest day & a massage for me yesterday so can't wait for me run tonnight.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Enjoy the HRM Ship. Lying in the bed and checking your resting HR is the first thing everyone does. There are also other things everyone does to try it out. image

  • Ship-star...yeah I did exactly the same when I got my Garmin with HRM a year ago. My resting heart rate has since dropped from 50 back then to around 41 now. Yet another stat to geek out on...

    Happy HRing...and a tip if you don't already know, it's best to work with %HRR (heart rate reserve) rather than %HRmax. But since you're already measuring HRrest you're probably up to speed.

    A 6M recovery run for me later and a chance to try out my brand new shoes (Brooks Pure Cadence).

  • Morning all - hello to anybody joining us.

    Ship - I've done my 6 miles for the day.  It was rather chilly and windy - however at least the rain stayed off until I got home. I even managed to remember my HR monitor today. image I really must find my max heart rate. One of my plans for this week I think.

  • Morning all

    I was out at 5.30am this morning, in sub zero conditions for any easy 6 miles with the dog. Average HR was 130bpm, which for me is about 58% of my WHRR.

    Today was my first proper headtorch run of this season, and was good funimage


  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Hello All, same as Fion J and Young Pup - an easy 6 miler this morning for me, which was the first run after a couple of weeks off to rest a hamstring pull from my last race.  

    Strangely pleased at getting the cold weather gear out and having to remember to breath away from the head torch beam image 

  • Keir wrote (see)

    Enjoy the HRM Ship. Lying in the bed and checking your resting HR is the first thing everyone does. There are also other things everyone does to try it out. image

    Haha, do you try and keep everything strictly in the aerobic zone?

    Fiona - I wish I was a morning person and could drag myself out of bed for a run in the early hours but my snooze button usually prevails and I run after work.

    Al - that's quite a big drop in resting HR, are there any others methods you use to measure your aerobic developement except race times?

  • Al runs: I've read that HRR is more accurate but my numbers seem to make a lot more sense if I use MaxHR. ie 70% is 146 BPM wth MaxHR which generally equates to a 8m/m easy pace whereas 70% inder HHR is 157 BPM which is a fairly fast (for me!) 7:20 m/m which I couldn't manage more than once or twice a week.

    The numbers given by the 2 methods get closer to each other the higher the percentage (as you'd expect) but for the easy runs MaxHR works better for me.

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Tek - thanks, i had a read through P&D last night. Was trying to imagine running at 5k pace and watcHing the HR image

    What's with German marathons, do you have folks/friends out there ? Last time i was in Hamburg was for a boys weekend ... don't remember much of it image


    A very cold and mostly dark 10M done and dusted by 7am today, 72%HR @ 8:45m/m ... HR was pretty solid as well which was pleasing

    Getting out in the dark and cold is tough but running as the sun comes up makes it well worhtwhile. image


  • mace: I'm German and I live in Hamburg image. I used to live near London from 1998 to 2010 though. Now back home. Come and visit image Hamburg is a solid city marathon. Not as crowded as London and Berlin (I think around 10-15000 runners) and therefore pretty fast. It's flat, it takes in the major sights and if the sun is out you get decent crowd support. It's usually the last Sunday in April so can be hot. I did it in 08 and 09 and both times it was in the low 20s. Too much for me image. Mind you, they scheduled it for April 21 2013 so chances are that temperatures will still be moderate.
    Good going on your 10 miler today!

    Teknik wrote (see)

    I'm amazed at just how much a mara sets you back in pace/ HR terms...it's going to be a long road back againimage

    I hear ya, Tek. When was your marathon?

    GazOC wrote (see)

    Tek, you think doing more Hadd and the 12 week P&D program would be more benefital than less Hadd and the 18 week? I'm sort of leaning that way myself to give Hadd every opportunity to kick in.

    + 1. I still find 18 weeks of P&D a leeettle draining. Like others said, their LT paces are hard and those Sunday long runs with huge chunks of MP are tough too. I tried the HADD + 12 P&D successfully for my autumn marathon. By the time I had to do MP it was less daunting because it coincided with my sub-LT pace image. And I PBd by over 9mins so it can't have been bad image

    stutyr wrote (see)

    I had been toying with the idea of starting the plan two weeks early (3rd Dec) so that any unexpected lay-offs (minor injuries, cough/cold etc) still allowed me to complete the plan.  Has anyone successfully used this approach?  

    Good idea, stu. Winter is the time for colds and coughs so we are very likely to lose a week or two. Building a cushion into the schedule means you can relax and take a few more days off until you are 100% well again. We all know what the pressure of a schedule can do and how quickly sensibility is thrown out of the window image

  • forgot to wave at alehouse image. Nice to see you on here. Your training tips always make a lot of sense.

  • Ship-star: another way I check aerobic development is by comparing stats on my Garmin Connect data. e.g. today I did a 6M recovery run @ 62% HRR, av pace 8:02 min/mile, so I'll look down the list and find other runs of the same length and %HRR and check out the difference in pace. So I see in April I did a similar run, av pace 8:36, and in December 2011 it was 8:54. Not 100% scientifically accurate but you start to see the trend. 

    chickadee (and others): have to say I am a little concerned about feeling drained from 18 weeks of P&D. I'm thinking I'll take the long runs with MP with a pinch of salt and do the MP stuff 5 - 10 seconds slower per mile.

    GazOC: interesting that %HRmax works better for you, specially at lower %s. It took me a little while to get my head round HRR, and it seems to feel right so I'm sticking with it. Garmin Connect doesn't deal in HRR so I've made myself a lookup table so I don't have to do the maths. In fact I made a version for a running buddy who finds it useful so if anyone wants a bespoke conversion table from %HRmax to %HRR, just tell me your HR rest and HR max and I'll send it over...colour coded with P&D zones too...

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    chick' - it sounds like a great marathon. I'd like to go back to Hamburg in the next few years as i have a good friend out there. I think maybe i'll get some cooler ones in first though, 20deg + sounds a bit harsh on the old HR image 


    I think you and Tek have sold the idea of 12 weeks P&D to me and i'll fill it out with plenty of HADD and chuck in a week off over XMAS. 18 weeks P&D to Brighton means a pre-XMAS start ... i'm sure i'll put in a few miles here and there over XMAS but i think a little rest around that time would be good.

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Al - agree, 18 weeks does sound hefty.

  • I haven't pinned down a plan yet, but if I do another P&D plan I will be sticking  with the 18 week version.

    The 18 week plan has plenty of recovery weeks, and the first 6 weeks are fairly light in terms of intensity with a few miles of LT or MP running. If you get into any injury issues on the 18 week plan, one of two light weeks doesn't impact quite as much as a 12 week plan. The first six weeks are fairly close to what I would be doing base building

  • AR- with you on that.

    I'm starting PD 55 to 70 18 weeks on 25th November. About a month after finishing the last dose. I'm going to drop the doubles again for sure! For non elites these seem pointless. Might up the 22 to 24 this time and at least one other 22. I did two 22s last campaign as not satisfied with first 22!

    I think the key to PD is to try and make sure you hit the key work outs hard (Sunday long run, mid week mediums and the tempo/ LTRs) The aerobics and recoveries are fillers and those are the days to skip if you have to due to circumstances. The 15 mile mid week runs during the middle of the campaign can be a slog as they come thick and fast and are often followed by other tough runs. There is one week where there is a Lactate threshold run on the Friday followed by a 22 mile on the Sunday and that was a tough week.
  • For both the 55 and 70 mile versions of P&D, what should one's weekly mileage be before starting these programmes?

  • Ship-star: in the book they say:

    55: at least 25M a week and in the last month you should have completed a run close in length to the to the long run called for in the first week of the schedule (12M)

    70: at least 45M a week and first week long run is 15M

  • Ship- for the upto 55 plan you should be coming off a decent base of say 30 miles a week and have run at least 12 to 13 miles as your long run. For 55 to 70 - 40 to 50 base and a long run of at least say 15 miles. There is no honey moon period on the higher mileage plans and they launch into fairly high mileage from the off.
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