P + D training for VLM 2013



  • I don't have a marathon time yet NN. That's the problem. All I have got to go on is my half pb of 1.22 from October. Which was before training to this extent. Hence the confusion. Still plenty of time to think about it before the big day.
  • Chris, I would personally go sub 3 hours, I am, if it goes wrong, I'll learn and be back another day, but, I feel confident with this training, and I find a 6:40 pace quite comfortable. I'm giving my all on this training and 2 years ago when I started running a sub 3 was something I thought I would never achieve, I feel this schedule prepares you right, physically and mentally. What have you got to lose, give it your all and finish a spent force.
  • I agree with Craig, go for sub 3 hours Chris.

    The times you are running suggest that 3.10 is way too conservative, Im aiming to get just under 3 hours and im not running as fast as you in training.

    Start at just under 3 hour pace and pick your speed up as the race goes on if you feel ok, i dont know why it has to be either 2.55 or 3.10.

    Three hours is a great benchmark and in your first marathon it would be fantastic result. Even if you tire late on in the race i cant see you losing 10 minutes so the 3.10 should be nailed on anyway as long as you dont go stupid with your pacing.

    Im in the same mindset as you Craig, im setting my self an ambitious target (it might be too ambitious) but if it goes wrong on the day its not the end of the world, ill just enter another marathon and have a crack at sub 3 again.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    agree also Chris - go for a sub 3. You have definately got the speed, and if you've followed the schedule you'll have the endurance also. Just be prepared for a bit of a mental battle in the 2nd half of the race.


  • The only real answer is run your own race..everyone is different

    most of you are alot younger so can afford a shite time and plan another next year, I am already on borrowed time as far as pbs and as mark says its not the end of the world, it is after all our hobby,

  • Sounds like 3 is the way to go then. Can always crawl over if it goes wrong.

    15W - it's really odd, for me the mental battle kicks in at the 10 - 12 mile mark. Kind of like, oh it's still a hell of a way to go! But physically I have felt my best at the 18 mile mark. I have been feeling stronger in the latter miles but v conscious that the earlier miles are the tougher ones to get through.

    Also it's really strange comparing successful and unsuccessful 3 hour attempts of people I know. Some really fast guys have struggled, whereas more mediocre ones have posted amazing times in comparison to their shorter distances. I'm hoping that the pfitz plan has enough endurance built in to help translate the shorter distances up to marathon.
  • Chris spot on , a male club mate of mine did who has sub 35 min 10k easy  sub 1.20 halfs only manages 3.05-3.10 marathons, 

  • Chris, i think feeling better at 18 miles is probably the adrenaline and mentally knowing that youve almost finished.

    Last year i was doing a lot of 100 mile bike rides and it was always at about 30 miles when i felt the worst, it was a case of just keeping going and when i got into the second half of the ride it got easier as i knew i was getting close to finishing.

    In races i set myself little targets, its usually from drink station to drink station and i dont think any further than that.

    I think from talking to people and reading forums usually people fail at sub 3 attempts when they pace themselves wrong in the race or train too hard.

    Thats the only thing id be wary of, in training you sound really quick. You just dont want to turn up on the day having done your best running in training, saying that maybe you have the potential to be going a lot quicker than 2.59.59.

  • Ah famous last words Mark ..." saying that maybe " image 

    so run your own race thats all you can do

  • I guess we won't know until April 21st!

    NN did that guy put the hard graft marathon training in though?
  • Sorry, im not trying to tell anyone how to race!

    I meant thats the fun part of marathon running, you sometimes don't know how fast you can really go, its always a risk trying to go faster image

  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭

    Chris - What is your Aim? Is GFA your first goal so you have two more bites at it or is sub 3 a one off blast at the marathon milarky. What would you be happier with, a shit or bust 3.11 or a conservative 3.05? Those miles from 20 -26 will be a whole new experience for you. You could reduce the range by going out and nailing a 1.21.xx half and then you are without question going to go sub 3 even with a massive fade at the end.  For what its worth I think you are in sub 3 shape and I would be targetting 2.59.xx if I was in your position. I would f orget about 2.55 unless its there for the taking on the day at mile 22.

    JF50 - All my pbs come from a slower first 10% of the race, so at london I gave up 10 seconds pm on the first two and then picked up to MP for the next 5 and balance my books by halfway. This does the following;

    1, Warms up and stops you blowing your race on adrenalin and relaxes you into the race wonderfully

    2. Means from mile 5-6 you start overtaking those who have started too quickly. In the first mile hundreds raced past me but for most of the run I was closing people down and in the last 7k I passed 479 and 4 passed me. Really good for the head when you are picking people off and holding your pace particularly in the 22-26 twilight zone.

    NN - Noooooo. Hope you are feeling better!!

  • I think you need a goal Chris, you will know by half way if you've been too optimistic and if you have to slow down to get to end in good shape and over 3 hours, nothing lost, it's a brilliant achievement to finish first marathon, never mind sub 3! I agree re faster runners sometimes have poorer marathon times BUT I guess that shows they don't have the strong aerobic base. If you are running your long runs at right pace, you'll give yourself a better chance. Doesn't make sense to a novice marathoner but believe me, it really is what will get you the better time. An underdeveloped aerobic base shows come race day, after all, it is am aerobic event.

    NN sorry to hear you're ill. Hope you're better tomorrow.

    Foot is slight tendinitis, nothing bad and can train but he's done some acupuncture so will rest for few days until it feels better, nothing to gain from obliterating my foot. Thanks for all your well wishes! It was definitely trainers.
  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    Some more super 20+ mile runs logged well done peeps.

    Ten great running image

    NN hope your feeling better xxx

    Chris77 1:22x2 = 2:44+15 =2:59 which is 6:50 pace London is hard to neg split so half way in 1:27 will allow for fade.

    Also plan for a real mental battle in the last four miles, just to give you an idea of how wrong you can get it here is what happened to me on my first marathon.

    I set off feeling on top of the world, bouncing with energy thinking 3hrs or under no bother miles 7 to 18 went by no problem, I went through the half way point in 1:28. I had never heard of gels not sure if there where any back then, no Garmin but used a watch with laps for pace and was running well.miles 18 to 22 I started to feel tired my legs just got so heavy I was slowing down fast, by mile 23, I was run/walking by mile 24 I was walking by mile 25 I was shuffling. I finished in 3:52 so the first half was done in 1:28. The second half in 2:24. Most of the time taken in the second half was between mile 22 and 26.

    What did I learn:

    1. More long runs in the build up.

    2. Fuel during the run.

    3. Most important go easy in the first 18 miles then add more speed if you can.
  • Chris J77 wrote (see)
    I guess we won't know until April 21st!

    NN did that guy put the hard graft marathon training in though?


    Chris J77 wrote (see)
    I guess we won't know until April 21st!

    NN did that guy put the hard graft marathon training in though?

    Dont think he followed P&D but was hardly the sort of bloke that took his training lightly, he was targeting  2.50

    NP and Mennania phew at last......you talk sense those chaps wont listen to a slow old bird.. image thats how I run my marathons the best bit for me was overtaking Gordon Ramsey at 22 miles and finishing about half a hour in front of him so he slowed up big time...unless he stopped to do some cooking..imageand thanks but no still feel crap not eaten or got out of bed today, this will be the first time in the whole schedule so far that I have to skip some training..image

  • HeOw, ive worn Mizuno shoes for years until they started faffing about with the design, i bought a new pair of Mizuno wave riders last year and straight away they felt awful and i was getting aches and pains in loads of different places.

    Im wearing Nike pegasus now and they feel much better, I dont know why Mizuno changed things when their shoes used to be so good.

    Im sure youll be ok after a few days off and youll probably feel stronger after a short rest.


  • NP - Do you think you really need to run the first half in 1.27?

    Im not trying to be clever because ive never ran in London and you are a more experienced runner than me, but it contradicts what you are saying about starting slower.

    A 1.27 half is 2.54 pace, ill be a bit worried about blowing up later on if I start at that pace, or is the 2nd half of the course really that much harder?

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    If you look at the profile it's down hill for the first 5 or 6 miles.
  • Just had a look, yeah the first few miles of the race look a lot quicker!

    I wonder what the sub 3 pacemaker will do, even pace or not?

    NN, sorry to hear you are not well, hope you're feeling better soon.

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    What start are you on?
  • It'll be just the general start i think because i got in through the ballot, thats the other problem, im expecting a slow start.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    NP, does that mean I am allowed to start off 5 seconds too quick after all?

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    We all run a little faster down hill Lit the thing is knowing its down hill and not keeping that pace on the flat bits which is harder said than done.
  • Loads of good advice guys and plenty of food for thought.

    Men - that looks like a very good sensible strategy first up. Will definately be making a note of that.

    NP - thats some crash and burn in the first one. How much long training had you done leading into that one? Good advice on the course profile too. Is it Docklands (miles 18 ish) where it goes uphill a bit?

    Mark - I'm in the same boat as you re start. I'll be on the mass start through the ballot and am a little worried about congestion and slowness for the first few miles. Most local races I can manage to start relatively close to the start line and get away without problems - its going to be a nightmare at London. Anyone got any tips for dealing with the mass start?

  • No PainNo Pain ✭✭✭
    Sorry can't help on the mass start I'm over on the Fast for age start and will take all of two seconds to cross the line image

    They talk about hitting the wall, well I hit the thing big time as for my training I had done 1x18 and 1x20 all MP + 90 seconds. Since then I have added 20+ mile runs till it feels like shelling peas and has worked well for me. The other thing that helps is knowing 60 year old ran in front of Nell McAndrew last year so I can still go faster;-)
  • I was in the general VLM start last year (3:45:xx) and we came to a complete stop for over 2 mins within the first 800m. Just pressure of the crowd narrowing the road and '000 of runners trying to get through.

    So, if you are calculating to the second for a major mark e.g 3hrs don't forget the buggeration factor!

    Stay alert through Docklands (bottom end and just as you turn north); it is as boring as hell, there is a slight hill and the breeze follows you round the buildings; there is little crowd inter-action so you can easily drop off the pace.

    Finally, with my experience of just 2 maras: I would go for a negative to even split which is what I achieved. If you press "Go" to soon you will never get it back at the end......anyway, the crowd might temper your pace.

    You must decide on a plan before you start otherwise your head will be in turmoil - then adapt after the Bridge.

    Finished in 3:32:xx

  • No Pain wrote (see)
    Sorry can't help on the mass start I'm over on the Fast for age start and will take all of two seconds to cross the line image

    Its alright for some!

    Was that your first marathon when you had a nightmare?

    Chris, my original plan was to just follow the sub 3 pacemaker for the first few miles, then push on a bit later on in the race so i guess ill have to try and find where the pacemakers are at the start. Dont know how hard that will be though.

    Mike, the start sounds like a nightmare! Good time though.

    Welcome, by the wayimage


  • I'm hoping that we will be fairly close to the front of the mass start mark? I put 3 hours down for my estimate and am hoping that will mean at least being in one of the pens nearer the front. But have never seen the front so have no idea?! Playing devil's advocate I may try and find the sub 3 pacer and get ahead of him / her ever so slightly just to avoid running behind loads of people following them. Agh. Too many decisions!

  • Chris how about running first half slightly slower than race pace and seeing how you feel after half way? Then if you've lots left in tank, just aim to knock few secs off every couple miles. If you have a sub 3, you'll do it even if you start slower.
  • Chris J77 wrote (see)

    I'm hoping that we will be fairly close to the front of the mass start mark? I put 3 hours down for my estimate and am hoping that will mean at least being in one of the pens nearer the front. 

    I hope so!

    Just thought i dont know what predicted time i put on my entry form, i should have ran last year but deferred my entry so itll be from my application which was done 18 months ago.

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