Sub 2:12 marathon - Can I do it?

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  • Just to clarify my motivation and my aims and answer some of your questions::

    Motivation:: To push myself to the limits. To do absolutely everything that I can to take myself to the boundaries of what my body will endure. If that is 2:12, then Yippeee Kay Yay! If it's 2:30, then cool, that'll do me! I want to do it over marathon distance, because I'm stronger over long distance than short and I get more satisfaction out of the endurance of it.

    Aim:: To run a marathon race as fast as my maximally conditioned body will take me. As said above, if thats 2:30, then cool, fine with me.


    So basically, yes, I do just want to get my potential, but my original question was "What if", What if I could get to that 2:12 Olympic qualifying level? What would I need to do to get there? Read this as "What would I need to do to fulfill my genetic potential?"


    I have failed at some stuff in the past, so I do know how it feels. But I know also how it feels to not have given something a go. The feeling derived from failing at something lasts only a short time. But the continuous annoying niggle "What if" will last until I've given it a go or ten, or I'm nailed into me box.


    Re: Uni - WHY?? I'll hopefully get the final conformation on Monday that I've got a good job in the running industry. I'm not interested in a degree. I'm sick of the whole attitude that you need a degree to succeed in life, and don't think I would gain anything by it, other than more debt than I'm in already thanks to the 1 1/2 years I did of a degree which I didn't enjoy and realised I didn't want! In terms of the time for training that one might have on a degree course, I may as well just drop my job for a few years to train full-time - the end result would be the same as if I did a degree if I don't want a job at the end of it that would use my degree!


    And yes, I am working at the mo, and doing 2 hours training as it is (although not all running yet as I'm obviously building it up gradually), and fitting in time to read, play piano (and eat, etc obviously)


    (Didn't I say I was going to leave this thread be?)
  • For me this thread is really interesting due to the contrast of the naievity of WCMOOPBTLPOS and the experience of runners who know what it takes in terms of commitment and dedication to run a decent marathon.

    How can you know if it is something you want to dedicate your life to if you've never had a hard training week or had a bad racing experience.

    I think the first 6 months will tell you a) if you actually want to do it and b) if you have the raw talent to suceed.

    Good luck, at least noone can accuse you of setting your goals too low.

  • Still gotta think you've got this all the way round. You've set yourself a target that you're extremely unlikely to reach, instead of setting the distance itself as a target, and then trying to improve on your own time. One sets you up for almost certain failure, the other sets you up for success. Set yourself SENSIBLE targets, achieve them, celebrate that and then set new sensible targets. Even 2:30, which you seem to be setting as the minimum you'd be happy with, is a time that only a tiny percentage of runners ever reach.

    But good luck for Monday. Hope you get the job.

    Oh, and one final suggestion - join in on the daily training thread. It's a great way of keeping up with a group of dedicated runners.
  • Ironman - amen, we shall see in 6 months if I still want to go for it.

    Venom - only a small percentage of runners get 2:30 because only a smell percentage of runners TRAIN for 2:30 (by train, I mean the 140mile weeks, etc. and not just the 70, 80 miles and racing 5k's, 10k's, and so on. (ok, I know *just* 70, 80miles is still quite high, but I was talking in relative terms)). If you don't set high goals, then you won't jump high!
  • As a lot of people already recommended if I were the bible dude I would have stayed at Uni or try to get transferred to a US uni in sunny California with excellent track facilities. After a year you can still decide if you want to progress further or follow up another career.

    Interesting thread, but I found it a bit disrespectful to all the elite athletes. Someone who has never run 120m for one week makes simple assumptions about training and achievements, de-marginalises the effort and hard work the other elites put in over many years.
  • URR - no disrespect intended to anyone, and I'm sorry if I did that. One of the aims of the thread was to get advice from those that have put themselves through that, who have taken their running to the next level, who gone through the blood sweat and tears, and I've gotten some good advice from it. ●Now it'd be great if we could let this thread die until I can post a proper update in a few months.●
  • Sorry, RR, but I think you're showing that you have very little idea what you're talking about. Very few people achieve 2:30 because very few people are capable of it. Look at the 2:45 thread on FLM again. There's a fair number of people there who haven't done 2:30 - are you going to tell them they're not training hard enough?

    You have no idea what it feels like to run a marathon at any pace. Once you run your first marathon you'll realise a bit more. And setting ludicrously high goals does not automatically lead to better performance, that's a facile cliche.
  • Road Runner,
    You are wrong to assume that because you do more mileage, you will run faster times. 140M a week will not guarantee you a sub 2H30 marathon more than 80M a week would.
    Trust me, when you start training hard you will not feel like doing more than 100M a week. In fact even 70M a week can be bloody hard! Do more, and you WILL sacrifice quality. You will need YEARS of running under your belt before you can achieve the mileages you're talking about, and still do some decent speedwork.
    I also want to add... Do you seriously think nobody is ambitious enough that they dare not aim for a 2H12 marathon...? Yet how many people have run that time in Britain last year (2)? How many have this year (0)? Do you think it's for want of trying? Yet how many people run? How many ambitious club runners? The odds are slim for anyone starting running to ever achieve such a time... They're not 5%; not even 1%.
    Finally from me, before I also let this thread die... Do not make the same mistake as our portuguese friend who seems to think there is some sort of linear progression in running... I quote:
    "Still this year:
    a sub 37 minute 10km
    a sub 1h20m half marathon

    2004
    a sub 35 minute 10km
    a sub 1h16m half marathon
    a sub 2h35m marathon

    2005
    a sub 33 minute 10km
    a sub 1h12m half marathon
    a sub 2h30m marathon

    2006
    a 30 minute 10km
    a sub 1h10m half marathon
    a sub 2h25m marathon"

    He is intending to drop (roughly) 2mins per 10K every year; 4 mins per half-M every year, and 5mins per marathon every year... This will NOT happen... a few things here: a sub-35mins 10K does not equate to a 2H35 marathon (!!) -you'll be lucky to run 2H45. On the other hand, a 30mins 10K is not worth a 2H25 marathon or (even worse) a 1H10 half... It will almost guarantee you a sub 2H20... But more importantly... progressing comes very quickly at first, but only in small increments after. As someone pointed out; if you only manage a 37mins 10K in your first year of running, you will NEVER (unless you're a freak of nature, or doing something very wrong) drop from 33mins to 30mins in your 4th year... This is plain ridiculous. To sum it up: go & run. If you run a sub-34 10K in your first year (on reasonably low mileage... ie 45/50M a week) then you might just be gifted enough not to get discouraged a 100 times on your way to a 2H12 marathon which you are very unlikely to ever come close to. Trust me, race a bit... compare yourself to other runners; you'll know very quickly if you have what it takes!
    I sincerely wish you all the best in the task you have set yourself, not matter how mad it all seems to me!
  • RR, you say you're stronger over the longer distance than short. What evidence do you base this on? Apart from your 5k race what longer distances have you done?

    Interested to know as I think we all have an optimum racing distance. Mine seems to be 10k - anything longer and I drop time / places in relative terms. I accept this and am putting in more distance work to put it right.

  • NickJ,

    Tell me how many people of 19 years old break 3 hour in their first marathon with only 3 months of training.

    I am now doing 7x1000m @ 3m20s with 2m rest.

    Let's see who's right.
  • Who is right about what? I'm sorry, but I really do not understand your logic, nor the point you're trying to make...
  • Jose - I think you have great ability and may well go far, but Nick's point was about the lack of "balance" in the 10K and Marathon times. Re-read his post.
    You may well hit your targets, but not in that order, sequence or time scale!
    I think there may have also been an illustration of your inexperience there... But that's OK - we all start out that way - just learn from the more experienced folk here too. NickJ has run sub 2:25, you know - when he "speaks" I listen - doesn't meanhe's always right or I alwas have to agree, but it does mean I give him the respect such a time deserves and listen to what he's saying.
    We are ALL still learning...
  • bl##dy h#ll nick, sub 2.25!! respec'!!!
  • (am assuming thats for a mara, not a half?)
  • And Smashy (see 2:45 threads) is looking to break 2:30 and...

    is a lady!!

    We are privileged that this guys give us the time to be frank...
  • sven27sven27 ✭✭✭
    Jose, I totally agree with Nick J & Pantman.
    I am fairly new to running and I have experienced that improvements drastically decline after 6 months training.( ie improvements come by only by seconds from a 10k time, yearly)
    7 x 1000m @ 3.20 off 2mins recovery is not anything special in comparison to your target times. When you can run these in 3.10 off 1min recovery you will be getting only close to 35mins then, this may show you how far you are away from reaching your targets.
    Doing marathons and half even every year at such a young age seems not the best way of reaching your targets. Your shorter distance times will give you a good indication of your potential over the longer distance. Your speed potential has a shorter shelf life, dont neglect it.
    Class marathon / 10k runners can all run excellent times over shorter distances ( ie 1500s, 3000 )and would be running these distances at your age.
    Your bodies adaptability will give you clues of how it will improve in the early stages, so training for a year to break 37mins for 10k then expecting 3 years later to be doing 30mins seems beyond anyones wildest dreams.


  • Ok, ok, ok. Sorry.

    I just got a litle enthusiasm because I'll be coached from now on by the same coach of Manuel Matias (PB 2h08m33s, London marathon runner-up in 1991, and Fukuoka winner in 1989) =)

    But just explain me a thing.. How was it possible to Priscila Welch to go from 0 (occasionaly drinker and smoker) to 2h26m at 42 years old (former British record) in eight years(!) ???

    António Pinto decided he wanted to be an athlete after he saw Carlos Lopes being Olympic Champion in 1984 and 4 years later he was in Seul in the Games!

    My strong Vo2 max is by my side, the rest is achievable with hard training and will. Believe me.

    My goal is to be in Beijing (2008). In five years everything can happen. =)
  • Jose - the one difference between you and RR is you are getting out there and doing it.
  • Strong VO2max is quite possibly another. Go for it Jose - keep us posted.
  • As far as I know Pinto was first a cyclist and then got into running. So I assume he developed his aerobic capacity early on. If you look at Pinto's running record it took him ten years to get from 2:12 downto 2:06!

    Regarding Welch, she did her first marathon in 3:26 as far as I know and decided to take up running full time. He husband Dave contributed quite a lot in terms of coaching, he was a 2:45hr runner.
  • An apology from Road Runner
    =======================================================================

    Guys, the essence of this post is that you were right, I was wrong. I was too proud to admit it. I was too proud to take your advice even though it was probably right. I've copied and pasted a definintion that I think applied to my carry on on this thread, and a personal response to some of the points.

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    1. Insecurity. Insecurity is the root of many unhealthy and ungodly behaviors. It provokes us to want the lavish praise and attention of others too much. Much of pride is motivated out of one’s unmet need for self-worth. Finding one’s identity and security in Christ is a must to avoid pride.

    *****Sometimes I feel like I have the maturity of a 16year old, and yet I feel like life is passing me by. I want to go far, fast (don't just mean in running). I guess part of the real motivation was that I felt if I ran that fast, I would really have achieved something with my life, I would gain self-worth. But making an attempt at something like this won't get me real self-worth, it will only get me disappointment and failure. You were right, I'm sorry.

    2. The need to be right. Ever encounter someone who has a hard time being wrong? This is a symptom of pride. The need to be right prevents one from appropriately evaluating issues as well as themselves (Galatians 6:3). A person who needs to be right has an exalted investment in himself or herself and thinks that he/she knows better than others.

    *****Yes. I hate someone telling me I'm wrong. The other person is usually right, but I'm too proud to admit I'm wrong and will continue to defend my wrongful stance. I'm sorry.

    3. Being argumentative. Individuals, who argue their point of view, especially to those in authority over them, are allowing pride to get the best of them. At the root of their argument is a belief that they are right and the other is wrong and that their will should prevail. It is appropriate to advocate for a point of view or position but not to do so in such a manner that you are more invested in your opinion than in arriving at a mutual understanding.

    *****Again, I didn't really show the proper respect to you guys who are out doing the big milage, who are actually getting the good times, who have the experience and the knowledge. I'm sorry for doing that.
  • 4. More invested in being heard than in hearing. When someone develops a pattern of needing others to listen to them rather than first hearing others, pride is motivating the need. Oftentimes, the individual does not feel loved or valued unless people "hear them out." In truth, this is often just an expression of insecurity and pride.

    *****I kept harping on, spouting out the same old rubbish

    5. Anger. Anger is a self-justifying emotion. This means that the nature of anger is to prompt us to justify our position and blame another for the wrongdoing. Justification of self leads to denial of our own complicity or wrongdoing. The scripture warns that the "anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God." (James 1:20). An individual who is angry a lot is suffering from pride.

    *****Got angry at what I deemed to be personal attacks, when in reality they were just good advice

    6. Irritability and impatience. Even though I am a counselor, it was only recently that I learned that the root of impatience in my life is anger and therefore pride. When we are unable to be patient with another and are irritated, it demonstrates a haughty view of self. We feel that our views, time or needs are more important that the other persons. This again is more an indication of our pride than someone else’s slow movement or imperfection.

    7. Lack of submissive attitude. Submission is the voluntary placement of oneself under the influence, control or authority of another. When an individual pledges their submission to you or another, yet is critical or argumentative of that authority, then pride is the hidden issue. The test of humility and submission is being able to say ‘yes’, maintain a positive attitude and trust God, especially when the decision of your authority goes against your grain or better judgment.

    *****Didn't 'submit' to the voice of experience

    8. Not easily corrected. Ever work or live with someone who won’t receive any negative or corrective feedback? This too is pride. Before he died, a pastor in the East Valley was noted for being easily entreated and able to receive corrective feedback from others. He would thank the person for the negative feedback and commit to pray about it, seek counsel and get back to the person with what conclusions he came to. He was a role model for many of us.

    *****I wouldn't accept that I was wrong and I kept attacking any feedback I deemed to be negative

    9. Receiving correction but not changing. I worked with a man who often would receive my correction and say thank you for the feedback, but would never change. This too is a form of pride. The individual was placating me and people-pleasing me, telling me what I wanted to hear but not really taking the feedback to heart. His insecurity and fear prevented him from truly changing.
  • 10. Needing others to take your advice. Counselors, such as myself, easily fall into the trap of having to have others take their advice. Advice should always be offered without strings attached. If you find yourself resenting the fact that your advice is not followed, look deeper at the motivating issues in your life.

    11. Needing to proclaim your title or degrees. A good friend of mine requires everyone to call him ‘pastor’, saying that he has deservedly earned the title. Demanding that others call you ‘doctor’ or ‘pastor’ or ‘bishop’ is usually a way of making you ‘one up’ and them ‘one down’. Once again, pride is fueling the requirement.

    12. Being stubborn. Webster’s dictionary defines stubbornness as "unduly determined to exert one’s own will, not easily persuaded and difficult to handle or work, resistant." The root issue of stubbornness is willfulness, which is ‘I want what I want when I want it’. Another name for pride.

    *****Yep, incredibly stubborn, not willing to give

    13. Comparisons and competition. 2 Corinthians 10:12 makes it clear that comparing oneself with others is unwise. Comparison is a form of competition. It is often overt. For example, emphasizing the size of one’s church, the number of converts, etc. However, it can also be the subtle sin of heart that inwardly grieves when another is more successful or rejoices when another pastor’s ministry enters hard times. The motive of heart is pride.

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    I don't know what I was thinking when I tried to commit myself to such an unachievable goal. Been having a bit of a rough time recently with various things, I'm basically sick with worry about my future and what I'm gonna do with my life. Also, I'm worried about looking back on my life and having achieved nothing. Kinda feel like I'm going through a bit of a mini-mid-life crisis! Of course there is the other scenario which several brought up - that of not having a life. It might well be better to just enjoy my running, do as much as I enjoy, enter a few smaller races, and then have time to read, play piano, watch films, have a social life, girlfriend, etc. I don't know anymore if its a good thing to have dreams, but this has been a really life-changing year for me with some of my dreams being realised, but with a different method to what I envisaged. But now I want to make myself as a humble student, I'll post daily on the training thread, if you guys will have me, and I'll try to learn from the massive cumulative experience of you. I'm praying that God will make me humble, and if you're also a Christian, It would be great if you could pray for me. Thanks peeps.


    Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall.
  • Oh boy, if you want to win races you have to get your head sorted. That's not how a winner thinks!
  • RR, nothing run with being argumentative, that's how we learn - putting up counter arguments - as long as we listen to the responses, which you have.

    Yep, come on to the daily training thread. If you're the first to post on a day you can provide an appropriate bible quotation as a sub-head rather than obscure song lyrics:-)
  • RR - look forward to seeing you on the daily training thread.
    Your goal isn't unachievable, just unlikely for most people.

    "You can't climb up to the second floor without a ladder.....When you set your aim too high and don't fulfill it, then your enthusiasm turns to bitterness. Try for a goal that's reasonable, then gradually raise it. That's the only way to get to the top" - Emil Zatopek

    Good luck
  • sven27sven27 ✭✭✭
    I bet you could have done an hours run in the same time you wrote that message.
    As nike says 'JUST DO IT!!'
  • That's a fantastic quote, TT. Sums it all up really...
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