Paris marathon 2013 here we go! A.W's Sub 3 attempt!

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  • Hey there lovely you!!!!....Great to catch up with you yesterday!!!!.....It was a fab day!!!!.....Lokking forward to the next get together!!!!!......image

  • Hi Mel,



    Was a great day indeed! Really good to see all of you.
  • Hi Ruth,



    Just to update you, really don't think any of the problems on my run were as a result of the gels directly, however they may have made things worse I guess. I felt pretty grotty most of yesterday and this morning my stomach is still a bit weird!
  • Steve - Just to keep you posted, my foot was sore after yesterdays run, and it is still sore today but not as bad. I've emailed Sarah and she recommends that I rest for a couple of days and see how it reacts after a massage that I've booked for tomorrow. It's just the tendinitis that flared up after all the snow and ice running.

    Better to rest a couple of days now than make it into a bigger problem. Sarah says cross training should be fine, so if you want me to do something else to substitute the runs over the next couple of days I can do that? Or re organise the week so I still get tomorrows quality session in if I can run later this week?

    I hope a couple of days off will sort it and will be all good by the second half of the week.

  • Hey Alex - sorry to hear about the slight niggle you're suffering. Given how well your training seems to be going, a couple of days off, although frustrating, will definitely not do you any harm (and might actually do some good). It sounds like your training programme will be tweaked to incorporate some cross training. However, it would be really helpful if you could also post what your schedule would have been if you had not been injured for those of us who have been shamelessly copying your programme! Good luck with the recovery and look forward to reading more of your excellent progress towards a goal I'm sure you're going to smash.

  • Ah sorry, completely forgot to post it up yesterday!

    Here it is!

    Week 7:
    Mon Jan 28: 5M easy or rest

    Jan 29: 5x2km in approx 7:30-7:45 starting every 10 mins. 9M in total

    Jan 30: 11M steady in 7:30-8:00

    Jan 31: 9M with middle 3M at HM pace

    Feb 1: 5M easy or rest

    Feb 2: 8M relaxed fartlek

    Feb 3: 21M slow in 8 min miles but a few miles at marathon pace

    week total: 63M

  • Denis Duret wrote (see)
    RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)
    . Are you using caffeine gels?

    Can you have 4 caffeine gels or would that be too much caffeine?

    Hi Denis Duret, Thanks for post.

    It will depend on the caffeine content in the gel. Most gels people are using on this forum are between 30-50mg per gel. I would suggest you use no more than 3mg per kilogram body weight so if you  weigh 70kg then no more than 210mg (70 x 3).  So make sure you work out the basics how much carbs you are taking on per hour and how much caffeine you will be consuming. Hope this helps.

    Ruth
    A.W wrote (see)

    Running is full of highs and lows. Unfortunately today was a low! I had a terrible run. It actually started out ok, I ticked off the first 6 miles at 7.30 pace and felt pretty good. In the back of my head I knew all was not well though, I could feel my stomach was not right and as time went on it was getting worse.

    By 7 miles, before I had even taken on any fuel/gel I had to make a dash for the public toilet and from then on it was an awful run. Today was meant to be a trial run of my fueling strategy for Paris, I plugged on and tried to keep to the plan taking a gel about half a mile after my pit stop, things just got worse though and I had problems with stomach cramps for the rest of the run, had to make another 2 unscheduled stops and decided enough was enough at 18.5 miles - was meant to be doing 21. I did take another gel at 12.5 miles, but I'm no further forward in knowing if they are right for me due to the stomach problems. I dont think it was the gels causing the problem as I had to stop before I'd even taken one, and I've used the same gels on a previous run with no adverse reaction at all! I'm sure Ruth might be able to advise better and give me some idea! May be last evenings meal, I didn't get to eat until quite late (9.30ish) and I did eat loads then was out running early at 8am after my normal breakfast. Had a takeaway pizza which is quite unusual as I usually make my own, so have a feeling I may have overloaded with foods which my body's not used to and not reacted well??

    I also do not think it's the gels.  If it was the gels you would not still be feeling rough the next day  & you felt not right before you even took a gel. The food the night before is not your usual but it is likely that you may have something hanging around or as you have mentioned the food the night before did not agree with you. But it will mean trying the gels again in another long run as it is worth ironing out any problems you may have. I think good call to end run early, you are highly motivated and would only do that if felt you needed to.

  • A.W

    As discussed aim is improved recovery. We discussed easy recovery drinks & foods to have straight after long Sunday runs and intense intervals/rep running, even before shower. The aim of your recovery should be  10-20g of protein & 40-50g of carbs then followed  up with usual lunch/dinner no more than 90-120 minutes later. The below list is not exhaustive but foods A.W likes and are easy to grab/make up.

    1. For goodness shake (3:1) powder version. This has around 17g of protein & 50g of carbs. It also helps start replacing fluid.   
    2. Cliff chocolate ship bar (10g protein & 40g Carbs) and a small banana for good measure.
    3. A pint of skimmed milk with chocolate powder added (around 19g protein & 45-50g carbs) or one pint of skimmed milk with a medium banana would be around 20g protein and 50g carbs.

    I think this is an important aspect of A.W diet for both recovery and immunity benefits.

  • ZiggyTheSpider wrote (see)
    A.W wrote (see)
    I then had a meeting with Ruth, I know Ruth is going to post up details of what we went over so wont go over much. We talked about my recovery for the most part and how important it is that I get a better approach to my post hard session nutrition. In short I'm going to address this by making sure I get a recovery shake immediately after the session to start recovery and then follow that up with a snack or lunch depending on when the run is. The other main point was about my race day plans for fueling and carb loading/pre race eating. I'm going to trial my race day nutrition today on my long run, taking gels at 7, 12/13 and 18 miles. I will then also try a gel during my half marathon to make sure when I'm running hard I can stomach the gels.

    Hi AW, maybe Ruth will go into to more detail when she posts but I was wondering what sort of recovery drink she suggested that you take?

    I sometimes take a whey protein shake with skimmed milk after a hard session but I wonder if I would be better taking something with more carbs in it.

    Good luck on the rest of your training!!

    Whey protein or any animal based protein food is a great recovery protein (better than plant based ones generally such beans and pulses etc ) however there is no evidence you would ever need anything above 20-25g of protein in a recovery snack (plus skimmed milk  will increase protein again). You may be paying over the odds for little in return. You should try and space protein out over the day as it is an important source in your diet. It is also important that if you do not eat enough carbs to cover your needs you need a higher protein diet. If not clear please ask more questions.

    Ruth

    Ruth

  • A.W

    Could you check the GU gels you are using are  20mg per gel and not 40mg of caffeine per gel (thought that the flavour you are currently using are the double caffeine ones? - 40mg per gel). Just want to check as even the 40mg would be fine to use but would like to know in case there is issue with stomach etc.

    Plan  at  moment is a gel in Paris at miles: 6,11, 16 & 21 this is a total of 100grams of carb or 33g per hour which as you are well trained may well be enough. As we discussed I would like you to carry 5 in case you lose one or feel need another one.

    Will post a carb loading day later this week/ early next week so you can practice before half in Feb - this  should be your full dress rehearsal for Paris. Race breakfast, what you eat the day before etc 

    Have a good few days and sorry to any one if missed any nutrition questions,  bring to my attention again! 

  • Hey Alex.......good to see you at training day. I hope the two days rest will sort out your tendonitis and you get back on track straight after. 

  • Ruth: Apologies as you've probably covered this off before but in line with your guidelines on caffeine intake what's the guide for carbs per body weight (kg) for running a marathon?

    I'm 5ft7 and 62kg and aiming for 3hr10. In previous maras I've generally taken a gel every five miles from 5 onwards (typically Lucozade gels (45g total)) alongside sips of water and a small bottle or two of whatever sports drink is on offer (eg Powerade at Brighton). This has generally worked ok for me but wonder if I've been abit light on the carb intake. 

  • Hi Ruth,

    Thanks for the info. Just checked the gels and they are definitely listed as having 40mg caffeine. Here's the product info from the GU site.

    /members/images/71035/Gallery/Screen_shot_2013-01-28_at_21.50.34.png

     

  • Some great info from Ruth here. sorry to hear foot sore and having a few days off at this stage will not affect your marathon and indeed may do you good. Hopefully now snow gone, you will be back to normal once you have let foot settle.

  • My foot tendinitis is a lot better today, almost no discomfort at all, just feeling muscle tightness up the leg which is what originally started the problem. Hopeful that a massage later today and another day off running and lots of foam roller and stretching should see me back to normal tomorrow or Thursday!
  • Ruth,

    Thanks for the feedback. I am using Shotz Energy Gel (Wild Bean) and it has 80mg (http://shotz1.com/products/shotz-energy-gel/flavours/wild-bean/). I am about 80kg and I am planning to use 4 gels so I will take 3 gels with Caffeine and a 4th one without. Those gels have 29.8g of Carbohydrate so I will be taking 119g in about 3 hours.

  • I'm a bit out of the loop with your training AW, just had a quick skim back and I see you are having a couple of issues at the moment. Sorry to hear that, but don't worry. We all miss days here and there with niggles and bugs. Had some issues myself lately and am only able to catch up on the forums today as I've had to call in sick today having been up all night. These things are sent to try us!

  • RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)
    ZiggyTheSpider wrote (see)
    A.W wrote (see)

    I then had a meeting with Ruth,

    I know Ruth is going to post up details of what we went over so wont go over much. We talked about my recovery for the most part and how important it is that I get a better approach to my post hard session nutrition. In short I'm going to address this by making sure I get a recovery shake immediately after the session to start recovery and then follow that up with a snack or lunch depending on when the run is. The other main point was about my race day plans for fueling and carb loading/pre race eating. I'm going to trial my race day nutrition today on my long run, taking gels at 7, 12/13 and 18 miles. I will then also try a gel during my half marathon to make sure when I'm running hard I can stomach the gels.

    Hi AW, maybe Ruth will go into to more detail when she posts but I was wondering what sort of recovery drink she suggested that you take?

    I sometimes take a whey protein shake with skimmed milk after a hard session but I wonder if I would be better taking something with more carbs in it.

    Good luck on the rest of your training!!

    Whey protein or any animal based protein food is a great recovery protein (better than plant based ones generally such beans and pulses etc ) however there is no evidence you would ever need anything above 20-25g of protein in a recovery snack (plus skimmed milk  will increase protein again). You may be paying over the odds for little in return. You should try and space protein out over the day as it is an important source in your diet. It is also important that if you do not eat enough carbs to cover your needs you need a higher protein diet. If not clear please ask more questions.

    Ruth

    Ruth

    Thanks for taking the time to respond Ruth.

    Your answer makes perfect sense and confirms what I already suspected. The ratio of protein to carb that my recovery drink contains is totally different to what you have reccomended and I'll replace it with something that has more carbs

  • Hope your tendonitis get better AW, if in doubt have an extra day off, rather than push it and do more damage.

  • AW - sounds a bit better news on the tendonitis, but the pain always goes first!

  • Perhaps the most painful massage I've ever had yesterday! Had massage, acupuncture and had my foot taped!

    My right side all down my leg was so tight! I nearly had to tell him to stop it was so bad!

    It's all feeling a bit better again today and after a quick email with Sarah the Asics team physio to see what to do now, think the best course of action is to take one more day rest to let it all settle down and then get back to it tomorrow as long as it still feels ok.

    Will continue to foam roller, stretch and ice today.

    What should I do tomorrow and the next few days Steve? I have the 10k Saturday, shall I just do the runs scheduled?

  • Good that you are feeling better. I'm sure this was just a ploy to be tapered for the 10k at the weekend!

    If you are resting today, I would suggest just doing a 5 mile build up run tomorrow - start off at 8 minutes mile, then 7:30, then 7:00 then 6:30 and then two minutes at 10k pace and then jog  5 minutes to finish.

    Friday - just do a few miles slow with four 100m strides at 10k pace to make sure ok from Thursday.

    I did 16 x 400 yesterday - 15 moderate ones and then one much faster one at end. Hope to feel better at 10k Sunday.

  • Good luck Alex.    Watching the thread with interest as, depending how my next couple of half marathons go, I will be attempting to go sub3 at Edinburgh.   Like others I wish I had your base speed ...and your weight and age... you seem to be in great shape. 

    Steve - given the weather we’ve had it has made sense to do quite a lot of work on the treadmill – do you have any rough rule about how you compare the treadmill with the road?   I also wondered how much biking you are doing and how hard and whether you will be keeping it going to just before the marathon or focussing more exclusively on running at some point?   I am currently doing about 4 hours biking and 6-7 hours running a week and planning to do a few duathlons and a mainly cycling holiday to break up my programme in the middle but was thinking of doing another duathlon 5 weeks before the marathon.  Too close or not?

  • I agree sometimes it may be the only option but I haven't run on a treadmill for years so not much practical experience as it must make up less than 0.0001% of my all time mileage! There is a slight variation for some in the way some people run on it compared to the outside world. Therefore, I think it's suggested you should put a 5% elevation on it so it's slightly harder but otherwise I guess anything you do outside can be simulated to some extent on the treadmill. It's less impact than road obviously but more repititious in action so a good idea to vary speeds and elevation to give variation

    Re duathlons. My cycling has dropped off a little in the last few weeks because of the weather and I have increased my running training but normally I would do more on the bike than I would do running. If the weather improves Maybe 9-10 hours running and 10-15 hours cycling. I really don't see a problem in doing a duathlon four or five weeks before. I think I have one myself 6 weeks before and generally find they take far less out of me than a half-marathon because all the ones I have had less than 10 miles total running in them.

     

  • Hi Nutterman,



    Good to hear from you.... Good luck to you too, when do you have your HM? I ran Edinburgh in 2011, quite liked it, but was injured at the time so couldn't run it full speed!!



    I'm a little apprehensive for my run today, just got everything crossed that my foot problem doesn't flair up! It feels ok to walk on, hope it feels ok to run on too! Will report back later how it goes!
  • Good luck with todays run Alex, make sure you ice after and stretch even if it feels fine. make sure you continue to strech all that leg as well this week to keep the area off loaded.

  • Good luck Alex - I hope youy can get shot of that pesky niggle quickly. I'm missing your speedy reports!

  • AndyV wrote (see)

    Ruth: Apologies as you've probably covered this off before but in line with your guidelines on caffeine intake what's the guide for carbs per body weight (kg) for running a marathon?

    I'm 5ft7 and 62kg and aiming for 3hr10. In previous maras I've generally taken a gel every five miles from 5 onwards (typically Lucozade gels (45g total)) alongside sips of water and a small bottle or two of whatever sports drink is on offer (eg Powerade at Brighton). This has generally worked ok for me but wonder if I've been abit light on the carb intake. 

    Believe it or not, carbs is not based on body weight as seems to have little effect because this could depend on how much carbs you have stored, muscle mass, diet in lead up to race etc so go with the guidelines of 30-60g (I would go towards the higher end) but no more than 1g per kilogram your body weight (62kg). From reading your post you have 4 gels? so that is 180grams of carbs so that is about 58g per hour so I reckon that is enough plus the sips of sports drinks (which  could help your performance, when you month wash with these carb based drinks these can actually give you a performance boost). So I think your plan is good on paper and it has been tried and tested!   

  • A.W wrote (see)

    Hi Ruth,

    Thanks for the info. Just checked the gels and they are definitelylisted as having 40mg caffeine. Here's the product info from the GU site. /members/images/71035/Gallery/Screen_shot_2013-01-28_at_21.50.34.png
     

    Thanks! So even with the 40mg of caffeine  in the Gu, your current plan sounds good! Lets go with that for now.

    How has your recovery been? Easy to do or still a struggle?

  • Denis Duret wrote (see)

    Ruth,

    Thanks for the feedback. I am using Shotz Energy Gel (Wild Bean) and it has 80mg (http://shotz1.com/products/shotz-energy-gel/flavours/wild-bean/). I am about 80kg and I am planning to use 4 gels so I will take 3 gels with Caffeine and a 4th one without. Those gels have 29.8g of Carbohydrate so I will be taking 119g in about 3 hours.

    Your carb intake is 40g per hour, have you ever hit the wall hard with this plan above ( if not stick with it). The 3 gels with caffeine is perfect- when do you take your last gel?

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